(Topic ID: 145146)

Funhouse trough switch issue


By CookyJar

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 45 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by dontfeed
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 4 years ago

So, just wanted to play one game of Funhouse before going to bed tonight and low and behold a problem popped up (isn't that always the case).

Starting having an issue with the center trough switch not working. Went into switch test and actuated by hand and it remains open, so I then hooked up the multi-meter directly to the switch for continuity and it tests fine, open and closed with manual activation. That rules out a flakey switch issue. I then test the diode with the multimeter and it looks fine (assuming I'm testing correctly).

I'm left scratching my head as to what to look for next, if anyone can point me in the right direction it would be much appreciated.

-Stephen

#2 4 years ago

Diodes - you need to lift one leg to get an accurate reading.

Then check for broken wire from switch to board in the head.

LTG : )™

#3 4 years ago

Hey Lloyd, what is the proper reading I should be getting on the meter when lifting one diode leg?

If it's a broken wire from the the switch to the board would it effect the other switches in the line?

-Stephen

#4 4 years ago

Also, now that I'm thinking about it last week I was playing a game and when the ball drained it did not recognize it. I shook the machine slighty thinking the ball didn't sit on the switch actuator correctly. It worked and the game continued to work properly till tonight. So it looks like that was the beginning of a problem that has now fully taken hold.

-Stephen

#5 4 years ago

So, now after giving Funhouse a nights rest the ball trough switch seems to be working again. I went to start up a game and it immediately went into ball search (indicating the switch was not registering closed) a few minutes later I tried again and it started up and played fine. Checked the switch test and it was registering closed now. So it seems to be an intermittent problem, I'll just have to wait and see if it pops up again. Maybe a connector in the back box not making good contact? However I did reseat the connectors last night and I was still having problems. Any ideas?

#6 4 years ago

Replace the switch.

#7 4 years ago
Quoted from CookyJar:

Hey Lloyd, what is the proper reading I should be getting on the meter when lifting one diode leg?

Open one way and closed the other.

Quoted from CookyJar:

f it's a broken wire from the the switch to the board would it effect the other switches in the line?

Depends where it is in the line. Only effect switches after the break.

Don't over think this. Check the wires first, then switch, forget the diode.

LTG : )™

#8 4 years ago

Went through the wires and they check out, no breaks. Going to try replacing the switch, it doesn't look like the Cherry D4 switches are available. Does anyone know the proper replacement switch?

#9 4 years ago
Quoted from CookyJar:

Went through the wires and they check out, no breaks. Going to try replacing the switch, it doesn't look like the Cherry D4 switches are available. Does anyone know the proper replacement switch?

Is that the big white switch?

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

Is that the big white switch?

Yes it is, with a 1" actuator. I see some sites selling similar looking switches, just not sure if they'll work correctly.

#11 4 years ago

I think these are the ones I bought when I did my FH restoration:

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1578

#12 4 years ago
Quoted from CookyJar:

Also, now that I'm thinking about it last week I was playing a game and when the ball drained it did not recognize it. I shook the machine slighty thinking the ball didn't sit on the switch actuator correctly. It worked and the game continued to work properly till tonight. So it looks like that was the beginning of a problem that has now fully taken hold.
-Stephen

check the color of wire (edit: of) the ball drain switch and the center through switch... Are they the same color wire? If so check your switch matrix and go back up the line of other switches that are on the same color make sure you do not have a wire that is just barely making contact.

RE diodes: Personally I would just as soon replace a .06 cent diode instead of remove it to check it.

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

I think these are the ones I bought when I did my FH restoration:

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1578

These switches don't have the actuator and on the original the 1" actuator is built into the switch.

Quoted from wantdataeast:

check the color of wire not the ball drain switch and the center through switch... Are they the same color wire? If so check your switch matrix and go back up the line of other switches that are on the same color make sure you do not have a wire that is just barely making contact.

Will double check when I get home tonight.

#14 4 years ago
Quoted from CookyJar:

These switches don't have the actuator and on the original the 1" actuator is built into the switch.

I thought you could swap the actuator over. Sorry.

#15 4 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

I thought you could swap the actuator over. Sorry.

That's what I originally thought too. I've been able to previously do that with smaller black micro switches that have the actuator on the outside.

#16 4 years ago

Just for clarification you can test a diode on a switch in the switch matrix while in-circuit (I would make sure the switch is open, but even that is not necessary--unless there are other problems in the circuit). This is not true of all diodes since it depends on the circuit. Not being picky, just trying to save people some unnecessary soldering.

#17 4 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

Just for clarification you can test a diode on a switch in the switch matrix while in-circuit (I would make sure the switch is open, but even that is not necessary--unless there are other problems in the circuit). This is not true of all diodes since it depends on the circuit. Not being picky, just trying to save people some unnecessary soldering.

Thanks for the tip! What determines whether you can test a diode in circuit or not? What kind of circuits allow this?

Quoted from wantdataeast:

check the color of wire (edit: of) the ball drain switch and the center through switch... Are they the same color wire? If so check your switch matrix and go back up the line of other switches that are on the same color make sure you do not have a wire that is just barely making contact.

RE diodes: Personally I would just as soon replace a .06 cent diode instead of remove it to check it.

Checked the switch matrix and followed the line of the other switches with the same color, all look good with no breaks or barley making contact. Going to order a new switch and diode from Steve Young tomorrow and see if that clears things up.

#18 4 years ago

Needed to order some parts for my Gottlieb Mayfair project anyway.

#19 4 years ago

If there are other components in parallel, like a diode on a coil, then you need to lift one leg or you would read through the coil. If there are no other components in parallel then you can test the diode in circuit.

#20 4 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

If there are other components in parallel, like a diode on a coil, then you need to lift one leg or you would read through the coil. If there are no other components in parallel then you can test the diode in circuit.

Cool, thanks for the info. Ordered the switch and diode, hope to get Funhouse settled then back to work on my Mayfair project in the garage.

#21 4 years ago
Quoted from CookyJar:

Going to order a new switch

Did you ever put a meter on the switch to see if it works ?

LTG : )™

#22 4 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

Did you ever put a meter on the switch to see if it works ?

With the meter on the switch it works sometimes, so it looks to be flaky. I had a similar issue with multiple flaky micro switches on my RFM, once I replaced the switches everything worked fine.

2 weeks later
#23 3 years ago

So I'm having the same problem as the Op. Switch works in test, not in game, etc. I want to replace the diode before I order a switch. I have a few diodes on hand. What size/value diode do I need to use?

Thanks

#24 3 years ago

Pretty much any silicon diode should work. 1N4004 etc.

#25 3 years ago
Quoted from dontfeed:

I want to replace the diode before I order a switch.

Diodes rarely fail, and you can test it with a meter very easily. I presume when you say works in test you mean that it tests ok with a meter vs it works in diagnostics?

If the switch tests good then most likely a broken wire in the column or row.

#26 3 years ago

Finally figured it out on my end. Replaced the switch and diode and still not getting anything, so again for the fourth or fifth time (I lost count) I trace the wiring back. Then I finally see it, what I didn't see all the other times and what caused the switch to seem flakey. The white yellow wire from the center trough to the "E" stand up, to the the "S" stand up. The wire looks like it's attached, but it really isn't, it's broken free of the solder! I re-solder and finally the problem is solved!

Thanks to everyone for the help! Wish I'd looked closer the first time and maybe I'd notice it earlier.

-Stephen

#27 3 years ago

Glad you got it working.

#28 3 years ago
Quoted from CookyJar:

Wish I'd looked closer the first time and maybe I'd notice it earlier.

You are learning. Check my post from 25 days ago. A few minutes with a meter and you'd know.

Next time you'll do better.

And you learned more about your game too.

LTG : )™

#29 3 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

You are learning. Check my post from 25 days ago. A few minutes with a meter and you'd know.

Stephen, you did just fine and figured it out on your own, which is a good thing.

TerryB™

#30 3 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

Stephen, you did just fine and figured it out on your own, which is a good thing.

TerryB™

Thanks Terry!

Also wanted to mention, I've been enjoying your soldering guide, it will definitely help my soldering work.

#31 3 years ago

Gives me something else to check. Hopefully I can check mine out over the holiday.

#32 3 years ago
Quoted from CookyJar:

Also wanted to mention, I've been enjoying your soldering guide, it will definitely help my soldering work.

Thanks CookyJar (that's something I never thought I'd ever say).

Quoted from dontfeed:

Gives me something else to check. Hopefully I can check mine out over the holiday.

Since CJ's all set, what kind of problems are you having?

1 week later
#33 3 years ago
Quoted from CookyJar:

Finally figured it out on my end. Replaced the switch and diode and still not getting anything, so again for the fourth or fifth time (I lost count) I trace the wiring back. Then I finally see it, what I didn't see all the other times and what caused the switch to seem flakey. The white yellow wire from the center trough to the "E" stand up, to the the "S" stand up. The wire looks like it's attached, but it really isn't, it's broken free of the solder! I re-solder and finally the problem is solved!
Thanks to everyone for the help! Wish I'd looked closer the first time and maybe I'd notice it earlier.
-Stephen

I called that one. I am glad that you found it. But yours is a good lesson to everyone on how valuable following back wires (as described the switch matrix) can be. I now always check my switch matrix diagram first if I have anything switch out on the play field. If you have 2 or 3 switches out and find out the switches are associate with the same colored wire, it is time to check all solder connections along that wire.

#34 3 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

Thanks CookyJar (that's something I never thought I'd ever say).

Since CJ's all set, what kind of problems are you having?

Sorry for the late reply.

I've been having the same problem pretty much. Tested the switch and the other trough switches, the coil that kicks the ball into the trough after it drains, the diodes as well and everything seems to test out fine. The diodes are reading around .520 - .560 on the meter if I remember correctly. I gave the wire a going over and didn't find anything wrong with that.

I had the balls out out of the game and when I turned it on it didn't recognize the balls were missing. I started a game and then it said it was missing a pinball. Not sure if you have to start a game or not for that to happen. Anyway, I put the balls in and the game "found" them. Started playing, had each ball drain and of course it just sat there each time it drained without being kicked back into the trough. I haven't found any switches out on the playfield either.

Still thinking it's the switch.

Any ideas?

Thanks

#35 3 years ago
Quoted from dontfeed:

I had the balls out out of the game and when I turned it on it didn't recognize the balls were missing.

You have to start a game before it will tell you balls are missing.

Quoted from dontfeed:

Started playing, had each ball drain and of course it just sat there each time it drained without being kicked back into the trough.

Go into switch test and see if the outhole switch is working. Go into solenoid test and see if the outhole solenoid is working.

#36 3 years ago
Quoted from dontfeed:

Sorry for the late reply.
I've been having the same problem pretty much. Tested the switch and the other trough switches, the coil that kicks the ball into the trough after it drains, the diodes as well and everything seems to test out fine. The diodes are reading around .520 - .560 on the meter if I remember correctly. I gave the wire a going over and didn't find anything wrong with that.
I had the balls out out of the game and when I turned it on it didn't recognize the balls were missing. I started a game and then it said it was missing a pinball. Not sure if you have to start a game or not for that to happen. Anyway, I put the balls in and the game "found" them. Started playing, had each ball drain and of course it just sat there each time it drained without being kicked back into the trough. I haven't found any switches out on the playfield either.
Still thinking it's the switch.
Any ideas?
Thanks

Check your lock switches. If these are closed, the game may think the balls are there and not in the trough.

#37 3 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

You have to start a game before it will tell you balls are missing.

Go into switch test and see if the outhole switch is working. Go into solenoid test and see if the outhole solenoid is working.

Quoted from dsuperbee:

Check your lock switches. If these are closed, the game may think the balls are there and not in the trough.

I thought so about having to start a game, but wasn't sure of the ball missing procedure. That part is ok then and I can rule out the lock switches.

I'll test the switch and solenoid later today if I get a chance.

1 week later
#38 3 years ago

I finally got to run a test today (life has been keeping me away from pinball a lot lately).

The outhole solenoid is not working in test. The outhole switch test reads : (A) CLOSED

#39 3 years ago

What game is this?

#40 3 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

What game is this?

Funhouse. I used the single switch test on the outhole. Is there another switch test i could've used?

#41 3 years ago

Single switch test is fine. The outhole switch should not be closed all of the time. It should only read closed when a ball is present. Check the switch. If it was stuck closed then that may have fried the driver circuit for the solenoid.

First check and see if you have voltage at the coil. Both lugs should read roughly 50 volts.

If that's good then the drive transistor is Q82. You can check that with a DMM (game off). Pinwiki should have a guide on checking transistors. Also check the pre-driver transistor.

#42 3 years ago

I actually had a ball there during the test. I'll make sure its removed and test it again. If it reads open, then what would be the next step?

#43 3 years ago

I removed the balls and the switch now reads "OPEN" in the single switch test.

I tested the solenoid and got roughly 75 volts at each lug. Is that right? Also, should that solenoid have a diode? Mine doesn't.

I attempted to test the Q82 transistor. I got .433 on the left leg and .38 on the right leg. I tried to get the center leg, but I'm not sure if I did. However, I got the OL reading when I tried and I do believe that's the reading I wanted anyway, a short, correct?

What is the pre-driver transistor?

#44 3 years ago
Quoted from dontfeed:

I tested the solenoid and got roughly 75 volts at each lug. Is that right?

Yes, that's fine. 50 volts is nominal.

See the following for testing transistors (at the bottom). OL is open, or the opposite of a short.

http://pinballrehab.com/1-articles/solid-state-repair/tutorials/120-electronics-tutorial-transistors

Q81 is the pre-driver for Q82. Link above should also have info on testing it.

2 months later
#45 3 years ago

So, I finally was able to revisit this issue today after having to deal with "life" for awhile.

I went and re-seated all of the cables to the power driver board while looking for any signs of damage. Lo and behold, after doing that and firing it up, it's working again! I'll keep a watchful eye on it to make sure nothing-else springs up, hopefully nothing does.

Thanks for the help!

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