(Topic ID: 321146)

Funhouse display is not working

By HappyHarold

1 year ago


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Logic Probe 74LS374.pdf (PDF preview)
Test 4.pdf (PDF preview)
Test 3.pdf (PDF preview)
Test 2.pdf (PDF preview)
test 1.pdf (PDF preview)
Funhouse manual 2-8.pdf (PDF preview)

#1 1 year ago

Hi Everyone:

The second line of my Williams Funhouse display is not functioning properly. See photos in the next post and a video of display test here:

The display had been working fine until my metal flashlight shorted the display fuse and then spanned both sides of the blown fuse to spark the display driver board. The entire display ceased to function at that point.

I was able to correct the fuse problem and I have replaced components on the display driver board that tested bad with my DMM. I replaced U1, U4, U7 and U11. The IC's at the bottom of the board (U14 through U18 and U9, U10 U12 and U13) tested fine in circuit so I left them as is. I replaced the capacitor C5 and the five bypass capacitors labelled B in the schematic.

Can anyone suggest what I might consider next?

My thanks, Harold

Funhouse manual 2-8.pdfFunhouse manual 2-8.pdf

#2 1 year ago

test 1.pdftest 1.pdfTest 2.pdfTest 2.pdfTest 3.pdfTest 3.pdfTest 4.pdfTest 4.pdf

#3 1 year ago

Bump for Harold.

#4 1 year ago

Not many folks are going to be able to help with this one.
The FunHouse display wasn't used in many (any perhaps) other games.
The display driver board is a hybrid based on System 11 display panels.
It would be very difficult (and a lot of work) to remotely diagnose the panel.
And, in all likelihood, repair would require some long obsolete parts (UDN7180 for example).

I can tell you that you have one segment driver failure (top display lower left segment locked on), and one digit driver failure (lower display alphanumerics locked on).

My advice...send it to a pro or replace it with a modern LED panel from Xpin or other. Or...just keep plugging along.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Not many folks are going to be able to help with this one.
The FunHouse display wasn't used in many (any perhaps) other games.
The display driver board is a hybrid based on System 11 display panels.
It would be very difficult (and a lot of work) to remotely diagnose the panel.
And, in all likelihood, repair would require some long obsolete parts (UDN7180 for example).
I can tell you that you have one segment driver failure (top display lower left segment locked on), and one digit driver failure (lower display alphanumerics locked on).
My advice...send it to a pro or replace it with a modern LED panel from Xpin or other. Or...just keep plugging along.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Thanks very much Chris for stepping in once again. You helped me revive my display board to this point. I am very grateful.

For the time being I'm hoping to keep "plugging" as you say (literally). My plan is to move chips around to see if I can follow the damage and isolate the bad chips. I have already replaced two of the 6118s which I understand control the digits. I have not replaced the other two 6118s or any of the four 7180s (which I believe control the digits) because they tested fine on the DMM. I understand however that this test is not exhaustive, so moving chips around might isolate the damaged chips. I ordered some 7180s from Action Pinball which should arrive this weekend. I will report back on what happens.

Regarding the LED panel from Xpin, would that function in my machine even through I likely have damage to the UDN chips?

Again my thanks for your help. Harold

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

The FunHouse display wasn't used in many (any perhaps) other games.

BOP and Harley Davidson use it too.

Quoted from HappyHarold:

Regarding the LED panel from Xpin, would that function in my machine even through I likely have damage to the UDN chips?

I'm suspect the replacement display replaces both the plasma displays and original driver board, but I'm not entirely sure since the installation instructions appear to be somewhat vague.

#7 1 year ago

The static captures don't show the problem accurately. The video shows it much better.

I 150% agree with ChrisH. This is not a display that many people have experience with as the circuitry was only used in Funhouse, The Machine (Bride of Pinbot) and Harley Davidson. Harley Davidson used the display side-by-side (Midway style not Williams style).

From viewing the video, it looks like the segment drives are all good. The problem looks more like it's on strobe side, but all the strobes do actually work. It's almost like a wave pattern. I have no experience with plasma display troubleshooting, so this is "shooting from the hip". It could be the filter capacitors for the high voltage (the 150uF@160V electrolytic capacitors). These are C1 and C2. You can safely replace these with 220uF@160V if need be. It really doesn't seem like a logic problem but more like a power problem.

Quoted from HappyHarold:

Regarding the LED panel from Xpin, would that function in my machine even through I likely have damage to the UDN chips?

Replacement WPC alphanumeric LED displays do not use the high voltage. They don't need the 6118s and 7180s. They just drive the LED from the 5V digital logic power. Well ... at least Rottendog and my display do that. The XPin display might take the high voltage input, rectify it and regulate it down to 5V but that's going to require some circuitry to do that efficiently. These LED displays replace both the display itself (logic and glass) as well as the high voltage (by obviating it).

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

The problem looks more like it's on strobe side, but all the strobes do actually work. It's almost like a wave pattern. I have no experience with plasma display troubleshooting, so this is "shooting from the hip". It could be the filter capacitors for the high voltage (the 150uF@160V electrolytic capacitors).

I replaced most of the pieces on the right side of the board including both C1 and C2. I intended to replace transistors Q3 and Q4. Do you think they could have anything to do with this problem?

My thanks for taking the time to help me, Harold

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from HappyHarold:

I intended to replace transistors Q3 and Q4. Do you think they could have anything to do with this problem?

No sir.
I don't think this is a voltage issue.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

I don't think this is a voltage issue.

Agree again. If the voltage is out of specification, you usually don't get any output in the glass. You should measure it to be sure it's in specification. You can also measure the AC ripple to make sure that C1 and C2 are operating properly.

OP:

One thing you can do is pause the display test and step it for each segment and strobe. While paused the display should be "static". That is, it should not have random segments going on and off or any of the "wave" thing that I can see in the video. One thing should be visible. Either the selected segment for each strobe or all segments for a selected strobe. I use the term "static" in quotes because the signals are not static, but rather the display appears static.

The "wave" may also be an artifact of the video capture. If the video does not represent what you see in person, then you will have to describe what you see. The video will supplement.

If you are unsure about the result of stepping through the display test one segment and strobe at a time, then post and link another video.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

The "wave" may also be an artifact of the video capture.

DumbAss ... very probable.

HappyHarold ... post a clear, in focus, hires image of the display logic schematic. The .pdf in IPDB isn't readable.
I take it back...I found a clearly readable version in the IPDB.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

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#12 1 year ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

post a clear, in focus, hires image of the display logic schematic. The .pdf in IPDB isn't readable.

Use the Harley Davidson PDF download. It's a much higher resolution scan. It should be plenty legible enough to you.

#13 1 year ago

The locked on segment is either U12 (UDN7180) or U17 (74LS374).
A logic probe is the best tool to figure this out.
If the display is supposed to be blank, and segment "e" is locked on, use the logic probe to probe the outputs of U17 referring to schematic for the correct pin. If that pin behaves the same as other output pins of that chip, then make sure the input to the UDN7180 from U17 is getting there.

You CAN NOT use a logic probe on the outputs of the UDN7180. Those outputs are HV and will toast your logic probe instantly.
Really, at if U17 is working, then the issue is almost guaranteed to be U12.

Let's have a small victory by fixing this first.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

HappyHarold ... post a clear, in focus, hires image of the display logic schematic. The .pdf in IPDB isn't readable.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Although the file was too large to post directly, there's a zip file on IPDB that contains hi res schematic. When this file is unzipped, the display schematic is "3-12 Display Driver Board." Here's the link to the zip file.

https://www.ipdb.org/files/966/Williams_1990_Funhouse_Operations_Manual_November_1990_high_res_schematics_only_pages_3_10_to_3_12.zip

Thanks to you and DumbAss for all the help you are providing. I am working through your comments from last night now.

My regards, Harold

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

I suspect the replacement display replaces both the plasma displays and original driver board, but I'm not entirely sure since the installation instructions appear to be somewhat vague.

Thanks @forceflow. Your suspicion is correct. I contacted Xpin and was told that their LED display replaces both the plasma and the driver board. Its good to know that if all else fails, this remains an option.

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

The locked on segment is either U12 (UDN7180) or U17 (74LS374).
A logic probe is the best tool to figure this out.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Amazingly helpful. Thank you. The logic probe is arriving tomorrow. I will read up on using one today to make sure I don't fry the probe or myself in the process.

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

One thing you can do is pause the display test and step it for each segment and strobe.

Thanks @dumbass. I am not sure how to pause the test but I will look into this today.

PS: The ripple does appear to be a video artifact but I will confirm later today.

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from HappyHarold:

I am not sure how to pause the test

Press the "start test" button again while the test is running.
That should pause the test.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#20 1 year ago

The lower display is driven by the connector with the "prime" indication on all of the signals. The prime symbol is a tick mark.

The strobes for digits 1 through 8 for the lower display come from U5 (UDN7180). That is the prime suspect.

You can use your logic probe to test the 74LS240s upstream of that, but since those are used to drive U8 also, and U8 seems to be driven correctly, I wouldn't suspect them. The "chip enables" to the LS240s that come from U11, a 74LS139 4 to 8 decoder are probably OK also. They can be tested with your logic probe to verify.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Press the "start test" button again while the test is running.
That should pause the test.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Excellent. Thank you.

Just read through this. Extremely helpful.

Quoted from ChrisHibler:

The strobes for digits 1 through 8 for the lower display come from U5 (UDN7180). That is the prime suspect.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Wow, this is so kind and generous of you to help me out so substantially. I will be able to replace U5 tonight or tomorrow and will let you know the results. I have learned an immense amount from my display problem and your guidance.

Again, my sincerest thanks!

#22 1 year ago

Well, I have done some homework. Here are the results.

First, I may not have mentioned this before, but digits 1 and 2 on Display 1 stopped working before doing any of the work below. I can't ascribe this to anything I have done wrong, which I suppose is a modest silver lining.

Second, I replaced U5 so that now both of the UDN6118 chips for Display 2 are new. This had no effect that I could discern.

Third, I used the logic probe to test the output pins on the four 74LS374 chips at the bottom of the board (U14, 15, 17 and 18). I've attached a PDF with the outcome.

(This is the first time I've used a logic probe, and I could easily distinguish between High, Low, and Mixed (H/L) readings, but I could not distinguish between square wave frequencies for the H/L readings above and below 200mHz. On the low readings I could not distinguish between Low with no pulse and Low with positive single pulses. If these distinctions matter I could spend more time with the probe to better interpret its readings.)

Thanks for the amazing guidance I have received to date on this problem.

Harold

Logic Probe 74LS374.pdfLogic Probe 74LS374.pdf
#23 1 year ago

After testing the UDN7180's, I removed U15, installed a socket, and put in a new chip. The new chip tested out just like the old one, both on the DMM and the logic probe. When I turned on the machine, there was no change in the display which remains largely as it did in the original video. At this point I'm stumped.

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