(Topic ID: 229141)

Fun Fest Outhole Weirdness


By n1teowl

1 year ago



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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by currieddog
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#1 1 year ago

I have a Williams Fun Fest with a strange issue. When the ball drains, the score motor keeps running and the machine keeps counting up bonus and never stops. If I manually push the ball out of the outhole and into the shooter lane, the score motor stops and everything runs fine from there. The weird part is that when the ball in play goes into the saucer at the top of the game and it increases the swing reel, the outhole issue doesn't occur at all. As long as there is a score other than zero on the swing reel when the ball drains, the swing reel resets like it is supposed to and then kicks the ball into the shooter lane. I am trying to figure out what in the two different paths is causing these two different outcomes. I see some similar issues posted on Pinside, but nothing exactly like this. Any ideas? Thanks in advance!

#2 1 year ago

Based on your description of the problem, it might be worth checking the switches on the swing reel.

#3 1 year ago

F-F has a fairly maddening set up, with a lot of things tied together. Try checking these to start: M/B on Ball Index, Score motor Index C, and Eject relay sw. C.

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#4 1 year ago

Hi n1teowl
You loose a ball - it enters the Outhole - You get 1000 points and again and again ...
Loosing a ball triggers a feature YOU can trigger when the ball is in play. See the JPG - as "my blue C" is swinging: The light (my blue D) steps. When the ball hits "my blue E": The stepping on "my blue D" stops, the "my blue F" light up - then when the ball hits "my blue C": You get 1000 or 5000 or 3000 points (eventually the gate opens) --- does this playfield feature works in Your pin ? Greetings Rolf

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#5 1 year ago
Quoted from bonzo71:

Based on your description of the problem, it might be worth checking the switches on the swing reel.

Thanks bonzo71. I have checked those and they seem to be okay. The reel resets fine and stops at zero so I assume the zero switch is okay too.

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi n1teowl
You loose a ball - it enters the Outhole - You get 1000 points and again and again ...
Loosing a ball triggers a feature YOU can trigger when the ball is in play. See the JPG - as "my blue C" is swinging: The light (my blue D) steps. When the ball hits "my blue E": The stepping on "my blue D" stops, the "my blue F" light up - then when the ball hits "my blue C": You get 1000 or 5000 or 3000 points (eventually the gate opens) --- does this playfield feature works in Your pin ? Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

Yes, Rolf. This feature does work fine.

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

F-F has a fairly maddening set up, with a lot of things tied together. Try checking these to start: M/B on Ball Index, Score motor Index C, and Eject relay sw. C.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Have checked these and all appear to be cleaned and gapped correctly. Other thoughts?

#8 1 year ago

Hi n1teowl
I try to make troubleshooting "easy" - You have Zero on the Swing Reel in the Backbox - You the let loose the ball when "my blue D" is lit on one of the 1000 points positions --- do You get endlessly, faulty points ? You +/- wrote this in Your post-1 --- I ask to be 150% sure. Greetings Rolf

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi n1teowl
I try to make troubleshooting "easy" - You have Zero on the Swing Reel in the Backbox - You the let loose the ball when "my blue D" is lit on one of the 1000 points positions --- do You get endlessly, faulty points ? You +/- wrote this in Your post-1 --- I ask to be 150% sure. Greetings Rolf

Rolf, when one of the targets is lit and the ball drains, it still keeps counting up the points endlessly. One other thing to note is that the point targets keep stepping up while this is happening. That means it will continually score 1000 and then continually score 3000 when the stepper goes up and then 5000, etc.

#10 1 year ago

Hi n1teowl
see the JPG in post-4, when the ball is in play: "my blue C" swings right - left - right etc. Everytime it is "outmost left": "My blue D" steps one step. How is the stepping (my blue D) when You loose the ball, fault starts to happen ? Same rhythm (stepping on the position my blue C is outmost left) ? Greetings Rolf

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi n1teowl
see the JPG in post-4, when the ball is in play: "my blue C" swings right - left - right etc. Everytime it is "outmost left": "My blue D" steps one step. How is the stepping (my blue D) when You loose the ball, fault starts to happen ? Same rhythm (stepping on the position my blue C is outmost left) ? Greetings Rolf

The rhythm is how you describe when the ball is in play - the unit steps up when the swinging target is far left. The rhythm of the stepping up is different when the ball drains. It takes two or three swings for it to step up.

#12 1 year ago

You checked this?

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#13 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

You checked this?
[quoted image]

Yes, unfortunately. Looks okay.

#14 1 year ago

The tedious thing that must be done on F-F is to track and check all the connections from one relay to the next and next.

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from n1teowl:

The weird part is that when the ball in play goes into the saucer at the top of the game and it increases the swing reel, the outhole issue doesn't occur at all

This has now ticked off a memory, and I wish I had taken better notes, but I had a similar problem that did involve that kickout and fixed it by blocking a sw. Try 2A here and block with paper or whatever.

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#16 1 year ago

Hi n1teowl
I believe in currieddog - he once had this pin and had a similar problem (I do own own one but never had to work on such problems).
Do You have the papertags in the pin - telling the name of every relay ? I started a game then lifted the playfield, manually made some points so the Ball-Index-Relay pulled-in and stayed pulling (I do this manually making some points on every new ball). On the lifted playfield, on the right --- many relays mounted in a line - the ninth relay is the Special Reel Reset-Relay. I tried both - Zero on the Swing-Reel in the Backbox as well as two on it. The reaction of my pin was the same --- I manually closed the Outhole-Switch for a rather long time - the Special Reel Reset Relay pulled-in - stayed pulled-in for quite a while - then it quit pulling. n1teowl - Your pin ? Greetings Rolf

#18 1 year ago

I will definitely try this when I get home tonight. Thanks for the lead.

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

This has now ticked off a memory, and I wish I had taken better notes, but I had a similar problem that did involve that kickout and fixed it by blocking a sw. Try 2A here and block with paper or whatever.
[quoted image]

Well, when the swing reel is at zero and the ball drains, the Special Reel Reset Relay doesn't pull at all. Is it supposed to, or only when there is a score to reset?

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi n1teowl
I believe in currieddog - he once had this pin and had a similar problem (I do own own one but never had to work on such problems).
Do You have the papertags in the pin - telling the name of every relay ? I started a game then lifted the playfield, manually made some points so the Ball-Index-Relay pulled-in and stayed pulling (I do this manually making some points on every new ball). On the lifted playfield, on the right --- many relays mounted in a line - the ninth relay is the Special Reel Reset-Relay. I tried both - Zero on the Swing-Reel in the Backbox as well as two on it. The reaction of my pin was the same --- I manually closed the Outhole-Switch for a rather long time - the Special Reel Reset Relay pulled-in - stayed pulled-in for quite a while - then it quit pulling. n1teowl - Your pin ? Greetings Rolf

Mine acts differently. When there is a zero on the Swing Reel, the Special Reel Reset Relay does not pull when when the outhole is activated. Is this a clue?

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from n1teowl:

Mine acts differently. When there is a zero on the Swing Reel, the Special Reel Reset Relay does not pull when when the outhole is activated. Is this a clue?

What happened with 1D blocked? Sorry if I'm sending you off the path as I try to refresh my memory ... I do remember my solution (similar problem) was a permanent block on a sw.

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

What happened with 1D blocked? Sorry if I'm sending you off the path as I try to refresh my memory ... I do remember my solution (similar problem) was a permanent block on a sw.

I might be misunderstanding you, but when I am having the issue, the Special Reel Reset Relay never closes. Blocking it has no effect as it is normally open.

#23 1 year ago

Hi n1teowl
You wrote a valuable observation in Your post-22 --- when having the fault: The Special Reel Reset Relay never closes, hmm, I did again my test (see post-16) --- the Relay closes in my pin. I had a look at the schematics --- see the JPG - I located the Ball Trough Relay on the lower end of the playfield (bottom - a bit to the left) I sneaked-in a stripe of paper in this switch (the middle of three switches) to keep the switch faulty always open. I then tested and I get the fault - same rhythm You describe in post-11.
Different is: I do have now the fault of getting many thousands of points to the Score-Drums no matter on the position of the Swing Reel (Backbox).
Have a look at the middle switch on Ball Trough Relay --- may want also sneak-in a stripe of paper to permanently, faulty have the switch open --- then play - reaction of Your pin ? Greetings Rolf

0Fun-Fest-Work-17 (resized).jpg
#24 1 year ago

n1teowl-I hope I am not insulting your intelligence here, but sometimes contacts "look" good, but aren't making good contact. Here is a good read: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#clean

Another possible somewhere in all of this is that you have a "floating contact" or two, ie-a contact that needs a good squeeze with some needlenose pliers because it it just a bit loose. That was one of many problems on my F-F.

#25 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

n1teowl-I hope I am not insulting your intelligence here, but sometimes contacts "look" good, but aren't making good contact. Here is a good read: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#clean
Another possible somewhere in all of this is that you have a "floating contact" or two, ie-a contact that needs a good squeeze with some needlenose pliers because it it just a bit loose. That was one of many problems on my F-F.

No, of course you aren't insulting my intelligence It makes sense that contacts can look good but not actually work well. I have worked on projects where I was sure that a switch was working only to later find out it wasn't on the third or fourth inspection. I will definitely take a closer look at the switches you mentioned. I tested them by cleaning, then made sure they made good contact visually, used an adjuster tool where needed, and then tested for continuity with a multimeter. I'll take another look and then try testing the wiring as well by using some alligator clips and let you know what I find out. Thanks again for your help.

#26 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi n1teowl
Different is: I do have now the fault of getting many thousands of points to the Score-Drums no matter on the position of the Swing Reel (Backbox).
Have a look at the middle switch on Ball Trough Relay --- may want also sneak-in a stripe of paper to permanently, faulty have the switch open --- then play - reaction of Your pin ? Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

When I block the second switch in the trough relay, I get a different result. When blocked, it doesn't matter what is on the Swing Reel (0 or 1-9), the fault occurs and the Special Reel Reset Relay does not pull in.

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

You wrote a valuable observation in Your post-22 --- when having the fault: The Special Reel Reset Relay never closes, hmm, I did again my test (see post-16) --- the Relay closes in my pin.

Quoted from n1teowl:

When I block the second switch in the trough relay, I get a different result. When blocked, it doesn't matter what is on the Swing Reel (0 or 1-9), the fault occurs and the Special Reel Reset Relay does not pull in.

Does the SRRR pull at all if energized by anything in the snippet in post 15? Have you tested the coil?

#28 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Does the SRRR pull at all if energized by anything in the snippet in post 15? Have you tested the coil?

The coil does work as the SRRR pulls and resets the Swing Reel when it has a count on it other than zero. When this happens, the next ball kicks out normally (there is no continuous counting up of the bonus).

#29 1 year ago

Did you check sw. D here? I do keep coming back to the memory of something similar and that it was solved by blocking a sw. on SRRR though. Try blocking each sw. one at a time if it's not the Tilt.

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#30 1 year ago

Hi n1teowl
post(s) to come on "trouble-shooting". Here I show a "Work-Around" - You mount one doorbell-pushbutton - every time a new ball is given: You press once the pushbutton --- and the Special-Swing-Reel in the Backbox steps up one step - then You launch the ball and play ...

In my JPG You see: Once I have mounted such pushbuttons - doing a handycap-competition - the other player was allowed to press "right button" to open the gate on the right --- to press "left button" to open the ball return on the left - see https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=823&picno=52839 .

Write if You temporary want to do such a Work-Around --- write if You want help in the wiring. Greetings Rolf

0Fun-Fest-Work-18 (resized).jpg
#31 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Did you check sw. D here? I do keep coming back to the memory of something similar and that it was solved by blocking a sw. on SRRR though. Try blocking each sw. one at a time if it's not the Tilt.
[quoted image]

I have looked into a lot of things, but I'm pretty sure I haven't looked at the Tilt relay in any detail. I will check that out.

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi n1teowl
post(s) to come on "trouble-shooting". Here I show a "Work-Around" - You mount one doorbell-pushbutton - every time a new ball is given: You press once the pushbutton --- and the Special-Swing-Reel in the Backbox steps up one step - then You launch the ball and play ...
In my JPG You see: Once I have mounted such pushbuttons - doing a handycap-competition - the other player was allowed to press "right button" to open the gate on the right --- to press "left button" to open the ball return on the left - see https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=823&picno=52839 .
Write if You temporary want to do such a Work-Around --- write if You want help in the wiring. Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

That is an interesting way to allow for testing and a cool way to add another layer of challenge to the game! I'm not in a big rush, so probably don't need to do this to make my game playable. I'd just like to get it all working like it should. Thanks again for your help, and yours too currieddog.

#33 1 year ago

Hi n1teowl
good - You are not in a big rush. I have found the (old) topic where I was trying to understand the end of ball feature - see here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-fun-fest-issueshelp#post-4129867 . Also no big rush - I will mount testlights (as I show on Ball-Index-Relay-Coil and on Outhole-Relay-Coil in the JPG in post-23 there) --- to check in my pin the stuff done (order of, relays involved) in the end of ball feature.
(((There in post-28 I showed testing with an testlight when the pin does not step on the ball - changing the clip-on-S-Start-Point of the testlight on new tests))).
Greetings Rolf

#34 1 year ago

I took a closer look at the Tilt Relay and wasn't able to find any issues. Thanks for the detailed post link Rolf, I will see what I can figure out based on that.

#35 1 year ago

Hi n1teowl
in post-33 I showed a link to another topic. At the time it was nice that the OP wrote: "It works now - stable" so we stopped brooding on the schematics and the "End of ball feature". Sad for us: Therefore I still do not completely understand this feature. For practical reasons I show here (again) the old JPG. Important (see the JPG) at "1" / "2": The closed Outhole Switch makes the "Ball Trough Relay" pull and pull and pull. This means when You are testing, having the playfield lifted, You manually activate the Outhole-Switch: Keep the switch closed for a looooong time - until the Outhole-Relay actuates the Kicker to kick a new ball out. The pin relys on the fact that the Ball Trough Relay is pulling for a looooong time (and actuates its switches).

I have a problem - in post-20 You write +/- "when there is 'Zero' on the Swing-Reel in the Backbox then the Special Reel Reset Relays (SRRR) does not actuate" --- in post-26 You write +/- "Sneaking-in a stripe of paper into the middle switch on Ball-Trough-Relay I (means You) have the faulty behaviour all the time".
Well, problematic is: The middle switch on Ball-Trough-Relay is the one that does make the SRRR to pull-in - post-20-SRRR-not-actuates, post-26-we-guarantee-the-SRRR-does-not-actuate - strange You have different reactions ...

Troubleshooting: When the pin has to reset the Swing-Reel (Backbox) having 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 visible in the backbox: TWO motor turns of 180 degrees needed.
When the pin has to reset the Swing-Reel (Backbox) having 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 visible in the backbox: ONE motor turns of 180 degrees needed. Look here https://www.ipdb.org/files/972/Williams_1973_Fun_Fest_Instruction_Manual_no_schematics.pdf on page 11 (original numbering page 9) - unplug wire Y-B. Start a game - step the Swing Reel in the Backbox so it shows "7" --- then loose the ball --- fault or no fault ?
(((with '7' shown the motor does one turn of 180 degrees less then when "1" or "2" or "3" or "4" are shown --- causes the "one less turn" a difference in behaviour ? ))) Greetings Rolf

0Fun-Fest-Work-09b (resized).jpg
#36 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

I have a problem - in post-20 You write +/- "when there is 'Zero' on the Swing-Reel in the Backbox then the Special Reel Reset Relays (SRRR) does not actuate" --- in post-26 You write +/- "Sneaking-in a stripe of paper into the middle switch on Ball-Trough-Relay I (means You) have the faulty behaviour all the time".
Well, problematic is: The middle switch on Ball-Trough-Relay is the one that does make the SRRR to pull-in - post-20-SRRR-not-actuates, post-26-we-guarantee-the-SRRR-does-not-actuate - strange You have different reactions ...
[quoted image]

I believe that this is consistent behavior. When there is a zero on the Swing Reel, the SRRR does not activate - but when there is a higher number on the Swing Reel, it does activate. If the middle switch on the Ball Trough Relay makes the SRRR pull in, it makes sense that by blocking it with a strip of paper that the SRRR does not activate whether or not there is a higher number on the Swing Reel (which is what happens).

#37 1 year ago

Hi n1teowl
Yes - You are right (post-36). I read post-16 again - MY PIN does make the SRRR also to pull-in when I have ZERO on the Swing-Reel in the Backbox (YOUR PIN does not). HERE is a fault.

Lets look at the JPG in post-35: A,B,C,F make the (E) Ball-Index-Relay to pull-in, stay pulling for the rest of the life of this ball. You loose the ball - this happens: 1, 2, the 3 - switch is still as drawn as the motor not yet turns, 4 the Ball Return Relay is pulling so switch is closed, 5 the switch is moved (other than drawn) as the Ball-Index-Relay is steady pulling, 6 the Bonus-Relay is not yet pulling, switch is still closed --- SEVEN the Center Target Relay does / must actuate and stay pulling through 8,9. Does Your Center Target Relay actuates ? If not: You must look at "4,5,6".
The pulling Center Target Relay makes the motor to run - "15" therefore is closed --- 11 and 12, SRRR pulls-in and stays pulling at least for the rest of a motor run. You need a running motor and a pulling Ball Trough Relay so 15, 11 make the 12, SRRR to pull-in. Greetings Rolf

#38 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

--- SEVEN the Center Target Relay does / must actuate and stay pulling through 8,9. Does Your Center Target Relay actuates ? If not: You must look at "4,5,6".

I actuated the outhole, and I see that when the fault is occurring, both the Center Target and Set Up relays open then close, open then close, in time with the score motor as it keeps turning. The Bonus Relay never closes. If I keep the outhole actuated while this is occurring and then close the bonus relay with my finger - the ball kicks out and the fault stops.

#39 1 year ago

Hi n1teowl
the End-of-Ball-fault is happening and You see as You write in post-38 "Set-Up-Relay rhythmically closes - opens - closes etc". See the first JPG - the ball is laying in the Outhole (and faulty never leaves) so the Ball Trough Relay endlessly pulls - Switch SU-1therefore is endlessly closed. In some way the motor is made running - endlessly. Every time the turning motor passes Home-Position (You see this position on the Index Cam - down and up move the switches on it) - a short moment the switch SU-2 is closed (the Home Position) - Initial current flows to the coil - SU-3 pulls-in - moves its switches - so SU-4 (its so-called Self-Hold-Switch) closes - the SU-3 stays pulling - but towards the end of a turn of the motor SU-5 actuates and cuts the Self-Hold-Circuitry of SU-3. But the motor turn further - reaches Home-Position - Initial Current flows and the relay pulls-in etc. This is normal reaction of the pin on such faults like End-of-Ball-fault. The explanation on "Center Target Relay" is alike.

In my second JPG we see another switch on the Swing Reel Unit in the Backbox --- to end the stepping when Zero-Position is reached.

One more check - if "No Luck": we then must mount Testlights parallel to Coils on several relays to see the sequence / succession of pulling-in. The theory behind the "one more check" is whacky - see the JPG in post-35 - the "switch red '15' " is no good - sometimes current can flow - sometimes not --- when the Swing Reel in the Backbox must be resetted: Switch "red 14" is closed - a short time of pulling-in of "SRRR, red 12" closes the Self-Hold-Switch "red 13" --- red 15 is allowed to break-open too early --- the Self-Hold-Circuitry through closed "red 14" and "red 13" KEEPS the "red 12" pulling. The Index-Cam is next to the real motor - "Ind-C, my red 15" is bottom-up the third switch on the stack - it is an three-bladed Make-and-Brake-Switch.
Please inspect this switch. Greetings Rolf

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#40 1 year ago

It looks like this issue has been solved! After all the diagnosis, it did turn out to be the Swing Reel Zero switch. Not the switch itself, but a wire that had come loose and was buried in the rest of the wire bundle. The confusing thing was that the zero reel did reset to zero when there was a score on it, which made me think the switch must have been working okay. It didn't keep turning endlessly. My other confusion was caused by the fact that each switch solder tab had at least one wire connected to it, and the way it was wired looked very similar to the 10,000 point reel. I wasn't sure where to connect the wire, so I tested out a few spots using an alligator clip (see below). Once it was connected back, everything worked fine.

Thanks so much rolf_martin_062 and currieddog. I have seen you guys help a ton of people on this forum. I know that there would be dozens of EMs around the world that wouldn't be working if it weren't for you. I'm sure you have saved a bunch from the dump. In recognition of that, I'm going to make a donation to Pinside on your behalf. Keep it up and thanks a ton.

Special Reel (resized).jpg
#41 1 year ago

Glad you found it! And it wasn't necessary to donate, but thanks much!!

#42 1 year ago

Hi n1teowl
great - YOU found the fault. Thanks for the kind words and the donation (post-40).
By now You probablay are more in the mood to look at the two alterations I did in my Fun Fest. It is a Fun pin - good to play with friends that seldom play pinball --- the factor "Luck" is dominant (everybody sometimes is lucky). Playing alone - well loosing the last (fifth) ball in "getting 1000 points end of ball feature" is tripled to 3000 points - 5000 is tripled to 15'000 - a difference of 12'000 - pure luck in the loosing the last ball. So the
first alteration I did was / is (see the JPG, bottom right): I cut the wire - soldered-on extension wires coming to the coin door - I can open the coin door and plug-in and have original (triple bonus on the last ball) --- I can unplug - and have only single bonus on the last ball.

The second alteration is about "opening the Gate" - see left side of the JPG - I soldered-on looooong wires, hanging loose from the playfield, down into the cabinet, to the coin door. I plug-in and have the alteration - or I unplug and have "original". Greetings Rolf

0Fun-Fest-Work-88-Save (resized).jpg
#43 1 year ago
Quoted from n1teowl:

Thanks bonzo71. I have checked those and they seem to be okay. The reel resets fine and stops at zero so I assume the zero switch is okay too.

#44 1 year ago

Hey Bonzo71. I totally realize you had it pegged from the start. I checked that switch a bunch of times but I didn't see anything wrong with it until I dug down into the wire bundle. I appreciate you posting (the correct) solution too.

#45 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi n1teowl
great - YOU found the fault. Thanks for the kind words and the donation (post-40).
By now You probablay are more in the mood to look at the two alterations I did in my Fun Fest. It is a Fun pin - good to play with friends that seldom play pinball --- the factor "Luck" is dominant (everybody sometimes is lucky). Playing alone - well loosing the last (fifth) ball in "getting 1000 points end of ball feature" is tripled to 3000 points - 5000 is tripled to 15'000 - a difference of 12'000 - pure luck in the loosing the last ball. So the
first alteration I did was / is (see the JPG, bottom right): I cut the wire - soldered-on extension wires coming to the coin door - I can open the coin door and plug-in and have original (triple bonus on the last ball) --- I can unplug - and have only single bonus on the last ball.
The second alteration is about "opening the Gate" - see left side of the JPG - I soldered-on looooong wires, hanging loose from the playfield, down into the cabinet, to the coin door. I plug-in and have the alteration - or I unplug and have "original". Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

These modifications look really cool! I like how they can easily be reversed to go back to the stock game. I think I'll give the bonus count mod a try.

#46 1 year ago

Nice mod, Rolf. Personally, I loved Triple Bonus.

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Lighting - Under Cabinet
Rock Custom Pinball
$ 45.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Just 3D Mods
$ 37.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
The MOD Couple
$ 28.50
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ULEKstore

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