Ok so I have been looking around at different machines, as I am sure a lot of you do, and I have been seeing the phrase, "Fully Restored" being used alot.
So I look at the pictures and see scratched and beat up cabinets, worn playfields, ect...but they say, "It's been Fully shopped" Is that the new definition of, "Full Restored"?
I personally think they should look brand new.
So here is my question...What does "fully restored" mean to you? Let the polite discussion began.
Quoted from timab2000:Is that the new definition of, "Full Restored"?
No it's old, very old. Been going on for years and years
Quoted from TheLaw:It's a term without a definition that means nothing or something to someone, or no one.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/at-what-point-does-shopped-transition-to-restored
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/so-what-does-fully-shopped-or-fully-restored-mean
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/when-buying-a-restored-pinball-what-should-i-expect
To me, "Fully Restored" would be a complete nut and bolt disassembly, cleaning, art restore, reassembly with new parts as needed -- game is likely as good or better than new.
"Fully Shopped" cold describe a game that has cosmetic flaws but plays/functions 100%. Realistically the potential seller's definition of this can be different -- some totally strip the playfield, some replace the easy to reach rubbers, some wipe the game down with a towel.
To me, fully shopped would be new rubbers, or course. But to take it all the way you need to check all the coil stops and replace any that are out of spec; That means no filing the mushroomed plunger ends. All new coil sleeves. More than likely, you need to replace the flipper EOS switches. If the flipper button switches are pitted they need replaced.
But many buyers will not appreciate the things they cannot see so they don't get done. And I am like Travish. I'd rather buy cheaper and put in my own sweat equity.
I'm with Tractor Doc on fully restored.
Quoted from TractorDoc:To me, "Fully Restored" would be a complete nut and bolt disassembly, cleaning, art restore, reassembly with new parts as needed -- game is likely as good or better than new.
"Fully Shopped" cold describe a game that has cosmetic flaws but plays/functions 100%. Realistically the potential seller's definition of this can be different -- some totally strip the playfield, some replace the easy to reach rubbers, some wipe the game down with a towel.
Exactly. Big difference between fully shopped and restored.
"Fully Restored" in my opinion means everything has been restored to like new condition. For a classic car to be considered fully restored that would mean a frame off restoration, a new coat of paint, rebuilt (or new) engine, etc. For a pinball machine to be considered fully restored I think it needs a new or professionally restored playfield, a new cabinet (or refinished cabinet with new decals). All playfield parts should be removed, along with the harness, cleaned (parts tumbled / polished) to look like new, and any broken or heavily worn part should be replaced (no cracked or discolored ramps).
Partially restored would be a combination of some of the items above but perhaps the cabinet was never re-decaled / refinished.
Fully shopped is a machine that has been thoroughly cleaned meaning ramps removed / cleaned, playfield cleaned throughout game including underneath ramps and new rubbers installed throughout the game.
HUO is a game that has only been owned by home users. Condition will widely vary based on how the game was taken care of.
New out of the box, new open box, etc needs to be removed. If the game was used at a show its not new out of the box, it's a demo game at that point even if it looks like new.
Quoted from PinballAir:Other - For Sale
1956 Williams Crossfire Rifle Game
“1956 Williams Cross Fire Rifle game.
Fully restored inside and out.
Works excellent.Has original scoring bells or flip a switch and each target has a different digital sound. The...”
19 days ago Boston, MA 1,700
PinballAirFully restored
Kind of looks like they forgot to do the back of that coin door
Most of the machines I have seen billed as “fully shopped” have only had what I consider to be a used car lot detail job. Replace the obvious, clean the readily visible, and then post up for sale. I won’t even start on the “fully restored” side. Very few people do what I consider a real shop job. One place I know for sure that does a “full shop” job is Elkhart Pinball. I’ve been to his shop personally, and he is the real deal. Hemi orange also makes sure all his used games are in tip top shape as well. There are a few others lurking around, but these are the only ones I have been to and bought from personally.
Quoted from timab2000:Ok so I have been looking around at different machines, as I am sure a lot of you do, and I have been seeing the phrase, "Fully Restored" being used alot.
So I look at the pictures and see scratched and beat up cabinets, worn playfields, ect...but they say, "It's been Fully shopped" Is that the new definition of, "Full Restored"?
I personally think they should look brand new.
So here is my question...What does "fully restored" mean to you? Let the polite discussion began.
Most sellers don't know what "fully" restored means. You see it all the time. Don't lose sleep over it.
Fully shopped means absolutely nothing to me because one of the first things I'm going to do when I get a machine home is do a full cleaning and repair the half ass fixes you did in your "shopping"
Quoted from ArcadiusMaximus:Fully shopped means absolutely nothing to me because one of the first things I'm going to do when I get a machine home is do a full cleaning and repair the half ass fixes you did in your "shopping"
Oh, you mean like the connector pins that were replaced and not crimped correctly? "I re-pinned it" AND I had to re-pin your re-pin job.
Quoted from titanpenguin:Most of the machines I have seen billed as “fully shopped” have only had what I consider to be a used car lot detail job. Replace the obvious, clean the readily visible, and then post up for sale. I won’t even start on the “fully restored” side. Very few people do what I consider a real shop job. One place I know for sure that does a “full shop” job is Elkhart Pinball. I’ve been to his shop personally, and he is the real deal. Hemi orange also makes sure all his used games are in tip top shape as well. There are a few others lurking around, but these are the only ones I have been to and bought from personally.
I got a Solar Fire that had been "fully shopped" by Elkhart pinball and it was full of problems, bad wiring, boards had to be totally redone, was a long, long way from the real deal. This is just one game, so who knows but I was left scratching my head and grabbing my wallet. just my 2 cents.
Nothing means anything.
You have games that are called "restored" but they have new playfield, new cab, new backglass, new legs and new plastics.
So the only original parts are the wiring harnesses.
That's not a restoration, that's a reproduction.
^^^ Yep agree with this. To Me a restoration on a pinball machine is bringing a machine back to factory like new condition. Some parts will need replacing some parts will need reconditioning some parts will just need a spit shine and a touch up. A lot of restorations may include tasteful must have mods like armor or leds, better speakers, color dmd (see HEP) I personally want an original playfield in a restored game. Thats just me! I also want original boards. My two cents 
Quoted from cottonm4:Oh, you mean like the connector pins that were replaced and not crimped correctly? "I re-pinned it" AND I had to re-pin your re-pin job.
yeah... got a game recently that the owner said a tech came out and replaced a few connectors.
I checked out the pin job, and the bare wire was stripped past the jacket crimp point and almost out of the housing.
Wound up repining them along with the rest.
I also got a game with "new" head decals. Sadly the owner didn't take off the old ones first... much less even it out. There were also "new" dings from him bumping it in the door way a few times. oh well....
I've learned to take everything said with a grain of salt. especially craigslist ads.
Quoted from hocuslocus:yeah... got a game recently that the owner said a tech came out and replaced a few connectors.
I checked out the pin job, and the bare wire was stripped past the jacket crimp point and almost out of the housing.
Wound up repining them along with the rest.
I also got a game with "new" head decals. Sadly the owner didn't take off the old ones first... much less even it out. There were also "new" dings from him bumping it in the door way a few times. oh well....
I've learned to take everything said with a grain of salt. especially craigslist ads.
Happens with cars, too. Some friends and I went to a car show/swap meet. In one building, there was a restored 1955 Corvette except the color was incorrect. Other than the color it was a 100% car. Next to it was a black 1967 Corvette roadster with a 427 and the big block hump on the hood. The hump was red. The guy says he fully restored it. To him it was a greatest greatest Vette that existed. That is all he saw. But all we saw was a black paint job that was either dry or orange peeled. To this day, it is still the ugliest car I have ever seen in show. If you had of bought that car long distance you would have been sorely disappointed when it rolled from the trailer.
“Fully Restored” means different things to different people and even different things to the same person as they gain more experience. What might be “fully restored” to someone new to the hobby might be a parts machine to a veteran.
When buying, the machine itself must be taken as the source of what the condition is and words in the ad are almost meaningless. Words in the ad should be taken as the text equivalent of all the conveniently cropped pics taken in the dark we are accustomed to seeing - just marketing noise.
Now in my opinion, the definition of “fully restored” in 2018 are the pins that Chris from HEP would consider “fully restored”. Note that he would not include all his professional work to be “fully restored”. Coming full circle, if he was a collector himself (he’s not) and made a “fully restored” pin for himself, this would be at an even higher level beyond his professional work. The point is there is no standard definition of “fully restored”.
I don’t care about the text in an ad. I care about seeing lots and lots of well lit pictures. That’s it.
I think there are "Taboo" words of description for pinball machines. These are words that make me raise a brow and usually later a BS flag.
Shopped, Fully Restored, Perfect, Flawless, HUO, Original, One Owner, just a few. Not saying that these are all BS just saying that if you see these terms in a description you need to be on your guard and have that flag ready! 
I don't like to use any of those terms as they obviously mean different things to different people. I simply try to describe what has been done to the machine and provide representative pictures. I think one of the main differences is how important is "original" verses using new replacement parts. For instance, I always replace plastics because the old yellowed ones just don't look right with a repainted and clearcoated playfield. Also, how important is it to the buyer to have original artwork on a cabinet instead of a complete cabinet repaint. Different strokes for different folks...
Speaking as a buyer (have been both) I prefer original cabinet artwork over a restored cabinet if: it is not faded, gouged, long deep scratches, Dents in the armor ect. Small "character marks" are acceptable. A good example is my SS. The original artwork on that game looks and feels like it was painted on. IMHO That is not something that can be duplicated with new decals. 
A restoration is relative. What did you start with?
All restorations are a labor of love. It is unlikely you will ever get your cash investment back on a game.
With that said, there is always one more thing that could be made better.
The standard for restorations now is to be better than new. Is that truly a restoration?
Fully restored = players condition = shopped = mint = project = hunk of junk. . No matter how they describe it, I’ll judge it when I see the game. Advertisements never match the game. Blurry pictures never show the faults. In reality, when I’m sitting there with a flashlight, I’ll judge it, and then we will discuss price. But if it’s too far away from your description, I’ll probably just wish you a good day and be on my way empty handed.
This is 100% the reason I’ll never buy a used game without looking at it myself. As House said, everybody lies.
Now my favorite part in descriptions... “backglass is a 8.5”. What’s that one mean??? Do you really need 20 gradations between 1 and 10 to rate a backglass?
Quoted from DaveH:“backglass is a 8.5”. What’s that one mean???
1.5 % of the glass has broken off.
LTG : )
Quoted from DaveH:“backglass is a 8.5”. What’s that one mean??? Do you really need 20 gradations between 1 and 10 to rate a backglass?
The 1-10 scale when grading never goes below a 7.
Something like this. Still not done yet, but going good so far. What I did:
- new playfield from Mirco
- new posts, plastics, brackets where available, toys and gimmicks
- playfield protector applied, mylar on the blind spots (skill shot behind the loop), lexane protectors on slingshots, clear acrylic protectors in a few rough spots, cliffy protectors on all kickouts and swamp plus bookcase entries
- new switches, incandescents replaced with LEDs
- playfield "frame" (the wood around the playfield) sanded down and repainted
- all mechanisms rebuilt with new OR THOROUGHLY CLEANED PARTS where new ones were unavailable (flippers, slingshots, kickers, pop bumpers, bookcase mech, Thing mech)
- playfield metal parts (loop ball guides, other guides and brackets) cleaned DILIGENTLY till they shine
- cabinet stripped, sanded, touched up, repainted, clearcoated and sanded again with 400 grit
- entire playfield harness washed and cleaned
To do:
- backbox reconstruction (woodwork, painting, decal application, replacing all electronics with new boards)
- trough reconstruction
- applying cabinet decals and gold parts (legs, siderails, bolts bought, lockbar to be purchased)
- cleaning all cabinet parts
- recreating the topper
- throwing some mods in (including homebrew ones I made for my other games, God bless 3D printing)
- cleaning and installing the wire ramp
- wiring everything up
I really wasn't compromising on anything with this build. Everything was either new or as good as new. The amount of protectors I'm putting in is evidence that I want to keep my TAF that way as long as possible.
Quoted from snowvictim:Something like this. Still not done yet, but going good so far. What I did:
- new playfield from Mirco
- new posts, plastics, brackets where available, toys and gimmicks
- playfield protector applied, mylar on the blind spots (skill shot behind the loop), lexane protectors on slingshots, clear acrylic protectors in a few rough spots, cliffy protectors on all kickouts and swamp plus bookcase entries
- new switches, incandescents replaced with LEDs
- playfield "frame" (the wood around the playfield) sanded down and repainted
- all mechanisms rebuilt with new OR THOROUGHLY CLEANED PARTS where new ones were unavailable (flippers, slingshots, kickers, pop bumpers, bookcase mech, Thing mech)
- playfield metal parts (loop ball guides, other guides and brackets) cleaned DILIGENTLY till they shine
- cabinet stripped, sanded, touched up, repainted, clearcoated and sanded again with 400 grit
- entire playfield harness washed and cleaned
To do:
- backbox reconstruction (woodwork, painting, decal application, replacing all electronics with new boards)
- trough reconstruction
- applying cabinet decals and gold parts (legs, siderails, bolts bought, lockbar to be purchased)
- cleaning all cabinet parts
- recreating the topper
- throwing some mods in (including homebrew ones I made for my other games, God bless 3D printing)
- cleaning and installing the wire ramp
- wiring everything up
I really wasn't compromising on anything with this build. Everything was either new or as good as new. The amount of protectors I'm putting in is evidence that I want to keep my TAF that way as long as possible.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
You typed 1,000 words and 2 pictures. You’re doing it wrong.
Quoted from chuckwurt:You typed 1,000 words and 2 pictures. You’re doing it wrong.
The two pics back us his words. But a lot more pics would be mucho better!
Quoted from chuckwurt:You typed 1,000 words and 2 pictures. You’re doing it wrong.
One picture says more than a 1000 words in this case. 
Quoted from whthrs166:More Pics! More Pics! We want more....
Fine, fine, they're not great though, and I'm missing a few for some reason. I think I just didn't take them. Please, please, don't hate on me for not having a rotisserie, I know it's bad. Also, I know my methods aren't exactly HEP, but I'm sure the result won't be far off. It's my first restoration anyway.
IMG_0006 (resized).JPGIMG_0054 (resized).JPGIMG_0096 (resized).JPGIMG_0104 (resized).JPGIMG_7747 (resized).JPGIMG_9937 (resized).JPGIMG_9938 (resized).JPGIMG_9940 (resized).JPGIMG_9987 (resized).JPGIMG_9992 (resized).JPGIMG_9993 (resized).JPGIMG_9994 (resized).JPGIMG_9998 (resized).JPG"Restoration" is a very subjective word; it's used to describe anything from a shop job to a full blown reproduction and everything in between.
Hopefully you plan on keeping that Addams family forever.
It is absolutely fabulous but you will never get your money back on it.
Thats almost as bad as someone buying a brand new game, playing for three months, then selling the used game as “new”
out of the box
Quoted from PinballAir:Hopefully you plan on keeping that Addams family forever.
It is absolutely fabulous but you will never get your money back on it.
Never is a long time....
Quoted from PinballAir:Hopefully you plan on keeping that Addams family forever.
It is absolutely fabulous but you will never get your money back on it.
The only way I'm parting with that Addams is if it gets stolen. Besides, at this point it's not even about the money, but the sheer amount of work, heart, and patience (along with the proverbial sweat, blood, and tears) that I've put into this game. But yeah, the general idea of it is "fully restored and fully preserved".
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Anybody else noticing a trend with this guy’s posts??????????????????????
Any ever notice how this guy never has anything good to say in posts
Quoted from timab2000:Any ever notice how this guy never has anything good to say in posts
I must admit I find most of #CrazyLevi posts spot on and to the point. Not a jab but your continuous posts about sellers, OEMs, vendors makes me certain I would not enjoy doing business with you. Just an observation as I suspect you are impossible to please??? In just one year in the hobby you have gone after Classic Arcade, Marco, sellers, buyers, and individuals. Interesting tactic to growing the industry and getting help?
Quoted from Yelobird:Not a jab but your continuous posts about sellers, OEMs, vendors makes me certain I would not enjoy doing business with you. Just an observation as I suspect you are impossible to please???
Ok so let me get this right.
If I have a problem with a vendor, I should not come here to talk about it?
Case in point. Classic Arcades: I have bought lots of stuff from him and was happy until I bought a plastic set from him. Color was bad. His policy returns are ok. So I did and he bans me from his site. That's ok if he does not want my money someone else does. Stupid way to run a business. (Oh and I am not the only one who has had this happen to, and then came here to let people know about it.)
Marco: Did not like color of item. Asked to return was told to pay 20% restocking fee. Once they saw I had never returned anything before they waived the fee I paid to ship back and I bought $120.00 more stuff from them. Everyone's happy.
I don't like the high price and inflated price of machines. Why do you care??? It my opinion, don't like it look at another post.
If you think you would be unhappy selling me something, jump on the boat with Classic Arcades, and I'll spend my money elsewhere. Stupid way to run a business. Again just my opinion.
Quoted from timab2000:Ok so let me get this right.
If I have a problem with a vendor, I should not come here to talk about it?
Case in point. Classic Arcades: I have bought lots of stuff from him and was happy until I bought a plastic set from him. Color was bad. His policy returns are ok. So I did and he bans me from his site. That's ok if he does not want my money someone else does. Stupid way to run a business. (Oh and I am not the only one who has had this happen to, and then came here to let people know about it.)
Marco: Did not like color of item. Asked to return was told to pay 20% restocking fee. Once they saw I had never returned anything before they waived the fee I paid to ship back and I bought $120.00 more stuff from them. Everyone's happy.
I don't like the high price and inflated price of machines. Why do you care??? It my opinion, don't like it look at another post.
If you think you would be unhappy selling me something, jump on the boat with Classic Arcades, and I'll spend my money elsewhere. Stupid way to run a business. Again just my opinion.
You are right and the world is wrong. Nobody can make mistakes in pinball (business) and they should all be called out every time they don't agree and snap to your opinion. Sorry I completely misunderstood your system to getting better support. Good luck with your system!
Quoted from ZooDude:I got a Solar Fire that had been "fully shopped" by Elkhart pinball and it was full of problems, bad wiring, boards had to be totally redone, was a long, long way from the real deal. This is just one game, so who knows but I was left scratching my head and grabbing my wallet. just my 2 cents.
ZooDude, I have only owned 1 Solar Fire pinball machine, and it is still in my shop, because it does meet my standards to sell to a customer. You might of bought a Solar Fire from some one in Elkhart, but it was not from Elkhart Pinball.
Quoted from ElkhartPinball:Yelobird, I have only owned 1 Solar Fire pinball machine, and it is still in my shop, because it does meet my standards to sell to a customer. You might of bought a Solar Fire from some one in Elkhart, but it was not from Elkhart Pinball.
What did I miss? I don't recall buying a Solar Fire ever?
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