Multi-level with a hidden playfield (dungeon) under the main playfield playable by cameras and the LCD screen.

Multi-level with a hidden playfield (dungeon) under the main playfield playable by cameras and the LCD screen.

Would be cool.....

please not this. Camera lag and expensive electronics to replace.

No camera lag. The image travels at the speed of light.

Digital cameras are inexpensive.

<Mind blown>

Processing and display of said image doesn't necessarily happen at the speed of light. Well, maybe it does, but how far is the light travelling...

I seriously, seriously doubt you'll ever see a "hidden" playfield like that, simply due to the need for reliability on location. As soon as something goes wrong with the camera - stops working, gets too much dirt on it, etc. - that entire, expensive feature becomes completely unplayable.

Just a few feet through some cable. Don't worry about a silly little thing called Latency

The light doesn't travel much farther in the grand scheme of things from a camera below the playfield to the LCD to your eyes. As far as something going wrong and impeding the game, well, that's true of ANY major part of a pinball game.

You're logic is......flawed.

Latency is non-exist to human perception in this example.

No, but the time it takes the camera to encode and transmit the video, combined with processing it on the PC and then getting the final image through the display's circuitry, would be measurable. A lot of LCD screens are known for having significant lag versus an old CRT screen.

Maybe, but you're talking about designing something with an essentially purposeful weak link, one the game could llkely not detect on its own is broken. Just where would you expect this camera to be positioned so that you can actually SEE something? A fish-eye lens in the corner of a box only a few inches high? What purpose would it serve to make something so diffiicult to play? I'd rather see a lower playfield mounted in the playfield that's hidden by LCD obscuring glass that goes clear when active. At least when the obscuring part breaks, and it will, the result is you see too much... not nothing at all.

You could detect it with image recognition, but it really seems gimmicky.

Well now you're adding layers of complexity.

Using the KISS theory, the best way to add video of a lower PF would be to essentially just use a CCTV setup that outputs to the controller PC so it can frame the video up nicely. It works great in current autos, don't see why it wouldn't be just as dependable in a pin. You'd just need closer focus optics on the camera. That kind of feed shows up great on the screen of my Nav system in the car. The tech's already there for it.

Hook you camcorder up to your TV. Turn it on. Wave you're hand in front of the camera. Watch on TV. Is there any PERCEPTIBLE latency? I thought not......

A bad DMD is a single point of failure for playing a modern Pin. Likewise on the LCD in WOZ. Digital Cameras last for years and years, and this would be protected in a sealed underground playfield. I'll take my chances.....

We have a winner!!!!!

This feature would not be expensive at all to implement and would probably be immensely more reliable than many of the mechanical devices that break down (and can be disabled within code) on other machines.

Modern HD mini cameras have extremely high performance capabilities and work awesome in low light situations. Heck, even the new GoPro cameras are shooting in 4k and are highly reliable.

I can see endless possibilities with this type of feature.

As cheap as those cameras are, you could implement multiple cams around the PF. I was thinking about this and remembered the Bart skateboard in TSPP you knock back from a newton ball. Imagine if there were a cam on Bart aimed towards the flippers. That'd be a great effect, switch the LCD to the shot of the cam getting knocked back when that target's hit!

Cool idea! How about a camera in Smaug? They could show Smaug's view on the LCD as he looks at the player.

--Luke

Great idea! Especially if his head is moving around!

Debatable as to how much the price to implement would increase the cost of the pin. It would increase the cost of course. How much? We dont know.

They would have to apparently.

Hidden playfield doesn't necessarily have to be low light. Would be easy enough to light that sucker up in there!

Before everybody starts to expect a hidden playfield, I wouldn't count on it. Avoid being disappointed when it won't there. If it will be there, more reason to be enthusiastic about it.

But if you prefer to fantasize about such a playfield: would it fit under a regular playfield, with camera's and lighting? I thought the WoZ playfield is already pretty deep inside the cabinet. Don't know if there is any room for anything at the bottom.

You clearly don't have my perceptions. But that's not even the point.

"Sealed" underground playfield? You do know the kind of black dirt steel and rubber grinding together creates, right? You've, like, cleaned a pinball before? Looked at the state of the subways in an old B/W game? Now imaging all that caked over a camera lens that hasn't been cleaned in 5 years on location.

Except this would be a mechanical feature too, so we have dual routes to failure. Unless the camera is just staring at a ball that does absolutely nothing, so we can rule out mechanical.

I really wouldn't put the "Hero3" and "highly reliable" together in the same sentence. And yes, I own a Hero3 Black, and the 4K mode at 15fps tops is essentially useless for anything more than saying "wow, that's a big frame".

Still, if playing murky pinball at an impossible angle on an LCD floats your boat, more power to you.

Definitely no room in a WOZ cabinet for such a thing. Not sure how they'd squeeze something like that in.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

so a hidden pf that can only be viewed on the LCD? I don't get it, it seems like a gratuitous level of complexity for very little action. Might as well just make the whole underground thing virtual instead...I mean think about cameras, lighting, hidden pf, ramps, flippers all for watching something on an LCD. I say save it and give us some more cool touches on top instead.

Nobody is expecting anything. We're all speculating for fun.

Yes, I have cleaned a Pin before. The state of a subway is because of the ball rolling through it a million time. The ball isn't going to be rolling over the cameral lens. Think before posting.

This makes no sense. Try harder.

Plenty of room in the coffin for a mini-playfield. Remember, it doesn't have to be DIRECTLY under the main playfield.

Dungeon/cavern theme, combined with the real estate of a large LCD, with the capability of some video overlay, equals new thrills with Pinball.

A mini playfield with a camera does not have to be attached to the playfield at all. You could mount it inside on the bottom of the cab (enclosed in a box that has a sliding panel on top for maint). The ball would be held (hidden) on the top playfield and the bottom would use a internal ball that drops when the "cave mode" starts. But overall, I am still thinking about how cool Smaug will be.... I hope he all but comes out of the machine and bites my leg!

You've heard of static electricity, yes? Dirt clings, especially in closed spaces. And as long as there's metal-to-metal or metal-to-rubber contact, there will be dirt generated, and it will have nowhere else to go.

So your underground hidden playfield will NOT have any mechanical features, thus making the camera the only potential point of failure for the whole thing? My point is you would be combining a traditional mechanical feature with traditional points of mechanical failure - let's say a mini playfield like the one on AC/DC, which has 2 flippers and a kicker - with an electronic viewport as your only way of seeing it. Thus, you have doubled the ways for this device to fail: first the player's mechanical way to operate the feature, and second the player's way to even see the feature in the first place.

Then... where would it go? I'm guessing you've never seen the inside of a WOZ.

Bingo!

No bingo. Look inside a WOZ and then say that.

Never said the hidden playfield wouldn't require maintenance, just not the disaster you're implying. The camera isn't going to break....just will require routine wipedown like anything else.

Never said anything about it not having mechanical features, just that you're logic is flawed, because all Pinball is mechanical and things can go wrong at any spot in the game.

But....you know.....we shouldn't innovate with Pinball.......you know......cause something might break......

Yes, Bingo. And I have.

I just don't see this as innovation. Forcing the player to play real pinball "virtually" seems like a gimmick at best, and needless complexity/added points of failure at worst. I'm all for mini playfields and innovation, but you might as well make the hidden playfield truly virtual pinball and remove the mechanical component.

I'd rather see tricks done with lighting, optics, even mini screens...

Then where do you anticipate it going? Where the coin box is... where the electronics cage is... or where the power supplies are?

There's essentially no free room down there!

http://www.pinplay.com/3/a_look_behind_the_curtain.html

You've made you point that you don't like the idea. But when you attacked it as being impossible or somehow technically flawed, I'm going to argue the point that it is possible and not a disaster technically. If all you have left is you dislike of the idea, well, that's your opinion and there is no reason arguing with you about that.

As far as where the playfield would go, there are several things to consider. Something like a Stewie sized playfield could be installed in a corner. A super slim (height wise) playfield could be under the play field/on top of the computer. And remember, we need to realize that this is not going in a WOZ, it's going in a Hobbit that would be designed around this idea (assuming it comes to fruition). So let's not argue over space in a WOZ designed coffin.

I'm not sure "technically flawed" is the problem so much as "unadvisable". Can you do it? Yes. Should you do it? I just don't see that the benefit outweighs the risk. People keep bringing up the idea of putting smoke machines inside pins - and from a technical standpoint, sure, you could do it, and it would work... but you'd end up covering the entire playfield in oil residue. Who needs that?

I guess come the end of 2014 and my Hobbit arrives and I end up staring at the LCD to play some hidden micro playfield, I'll know exactly who to blame!

Yeah, what would be the point?

I see lots of fun things that those entries could do, a lower virtual real playfield isn't something I would consider "fun".

I have to say, this is the most enjoyable thread regarding JJP I've ever read on pinside - maybe it has to do with some of the changes Robin made recently. This hobby should be about the fun and joy (that's why I got into it), and I look forward to playing this machine when it comes out (thanks to David at Flippers in Grandy, NC who is placing every new machine out there for everyone to enjoy).

I don't know how the slingshot axes could lower to block shots so close to the bottom flippers without being a mechanical reliability nightmare, but that idea/concept is still pretty cool forcing shots to be made with the upper flippers that could have otherwise been made from below.

Anyhew - I don't want to take this thread off topic regarding attitudes, so back to the pleasant speculation about this highly anticipated machine.

To increase the "threat" I wonder if you could add a sweeping/random moving head to Smaug with a magnet in the mouth, that if he gets the ball he eats it and it is "drained"? Something to actually increase the threat from the dragon, instead of just hitting dragon over and over. I know, there are prob a hundred reasons to not do this because of maint and such, but imagine the added excitement.

With the game featuring "one" toy, I wouldn't be surprised if their goal was greatest pinball toy ever. I'd be shocked if Smaug wasn't something amazing.

All singing, all dancing ....er ..never mind, that's just weird.

Too bad there aren't more inserts on this like in WOZ. Would be a cool effect to have smaug breathe blinding fire towards the player with a sweep of overly bright red and orange light.

Where does it say there is "one" toy?

Agree. For $7.5k if there's one main toy it better be incredible and surpass the castle in MM. After seeing WOZ I'm confident that JJP will be able to deliver a fantastic machine with TH.

That would be awesome! Maybe JJP can at least do some type of upwards LED lighting on the sides of the cabinet that would create a nice glowing fire affect on the playfield.

New Desolation of Smaug trailer released! The voice of Smaug is really cool. With the sound quality that WOZ offers I can't wait to hear the voice of Smaug billow out of the speakers. I'm sure JJP will put some lines in there that are taunts and maybe this is a stretch but some custom Smaug voice work could be epic as well.

I dunno. The new ST game has barely one "toy" (a plastic space ship that shakes and slides forward a bit). And people seem willing to pay upwards of $7.5k for that. Even without a hi-res LCD, killer audio system, JJP build quality, etc.