(Topic ID: 30823)

FT: High-end Congo restoration for High-end Paragon restoration

By snaroff

11 years ago


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#1 11 years ago

Here are pics of my Congo:

http://s1205.beta.photobucket.com/user/snaroff/library/Congo

Both the cabinet and PF are beautifully clear-coated. The cabinet is also custom painted (red eyes, more green added)...stunning. Lot's of great powder-coating. The slightly worn window to the mini-PF is being replaced with a brand new window tomorrow. Also have a mantis amusements black zink volcano weldment that I'm adding.

For now, I'm not looking to sell outright...only looking for a beautiful Paragon.

Thanks for looking.

#6 11 years ago

Brian Dendis did the restoration...he's an amazing artist. Don't know if you've ever seen this "before/after" of a destroyed MM PF, but here is a "sick" PF restoration I'm told he did (not mine):

http://s1205.beta.photobucket.com/user/snaroff/library/Brians%20work%20is%20awesome

After receiving the pin, I've done a bit of work to tweak/optimize gameplay. Since I play my pins, it's important for them to play as good as they look (or better

Here's a STTNG restoration I just finished up...really happy with replacing all the red trim with blue (the pop bumpers and lane guides really brighten up the pin).

http://s1205.beta.photobucket.com/user/snaroff/library/STTNG%20restoration

I'm in South Florida...

IIRC, I have about $4,700 in the pin. Certainly a lot of cash for this title, but it's extremely rare to find one with this much love given to it. I've had restorations from a couple of the top name pros, and this custom artwork and clear coated cabinet is the nicest I've seen. If this pin were restored by one of the top name pros, it would more than 2x what I paid.

If I'm dealing with a trusted collector (i.e. someone who will give it a good home) I typically sell for roughly what I have in it. This rule doesn't apply to retailers, who I very rarely deal with.

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#14 11 years ago
Quoted from McCune:

People need to stop with this High end stuff ! The game is different than other congos that is for sure . High end ? Not even close .
Jim

Since it looks like you own a Congo, why don't you show us pics of your example? I'd love to see what you consider "high end"...always happy to learn from more experienced collectors.

#20 11 years ago
Quoted from AkumaZeto:

High end means its better than when it left the factory. Every ounce of the unit is clean and beyond mint. Corners so sharp as to cut your fingers off etc. Dirt not even within 50 feet of the game etc.
Your game while nice is not what i would call high end either. There is coil wrappers that dont match some are faded some are wrinkled. Midway sticker wrinkled lock down latch chipped up etc. I could go on but i am not gonna nit pick it. Its a very nice machine. But when you throw out high end some people go right to Hutchinson quality.

His name is "Hutchins" (assuming you are talking about Chris, of High End Pins).

Listen, I restored an AFM with Chris Hutchins, had a MM done by Chad Keller, and a TOM done by TreasureCove. Having owned pins from all these talented folks, I am well aware of what "high end" means. Nevertheless, you are certainly entitled to your definition!

I stand by my original assertion that this cabinet artwork and clear coat are gorgeous (when compared with other high-end restorations I've seen and more importantly, owned). The underside of this pin was certainly not restored with the completeness of some other restorations I've owned...nevertheless, I don't play or look at the underneath of the PF or inside of the cabinet (so it just isn't that important to me). If that is important to you, I'm sure there are plenty of pro restorers that will be happy to restore one for you! The labor alone will approach the price I paid for this entire pin...so, I'm very happy with the tradeoff's made when restoring this Congo (which as you know, isn't an "A list" title).

#27 11 years ago
Quoted from McCune:

I know , what can I say? It was not intended as a dig towards the op but more of a educational public service announcement .
Jim

Frankly, your terse comment really doesn't provide much info/education. All it really does is give folks the impression you hold the sacred definition of what a high-end restoration is (which is silly). Hey, it you want to assert your the alpha dog, that's fine...

Here is some education...restoring *non A-list titles* with the usual pros isn't typically a smart financial decision. Many of the pro-restorers typically caution collectors on the financial pitfalls of restoring a title like Congo with them. So, this (dare I say) high-end Congo restoration was done by someone who I believe does really nice work (especially on the artwork and clear coating)...especially for the modest investment.

#29 11 years ago
Quoted from McCune:

I don't want make this thread about me !
The op ask to see some what I think is a restoration, here you go,small sample .

That is not what I asked for. I asked specifically for pictures of your Congo. I've seen many AFM/MM/MB that look like yours...and I've owned several. Not impressed...sorry. These 15-20k restorations are boring...

#35 11 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

Call it whatever you want. The fact of the matter is that this is an absolutely beautiful Congo. It's easily the nicest one I've seen by far. Good luck with the sale!

Thank you! Just to be clear, I'm not selling it...just looking for a Paragon trade. The only reason I mentioned what I had in it was "Whysnow" asked.

Quoted from pinlawyer:

Oh, quit your bickering, all o' y'all! I've seen Jim's restos--they are on par with Bryan Kelly, Chad Keller and Chris Hutchins. Brian Dendis (Prowlerman) has sold me more thn one of his restorations. Generally, they're good, but he does almost exclusively "B" titles. In my experience, he's excellent with clearcoat--among the best, actually--adequate with touchup (not on par with the expensive guys), and doesn't even touch the inside of the cab or underside of the pf. Very creative with mods.

Brian actually did a very nice job with the inside of this cabinet. I think he spent so much time on the outside of the cabinet, he decided to make the inside nice as well.

Thanks for speaking up and confirming the quality of Brian's clearcoat work. The cabinet artwork he did on this is definitely much better than adequate. It's hard to compare with the A-list restores, since most of them involve applying new decals (and don't require artwork touchup). The artwork touchup he did on this Congo PF was also very nice...

From my perspective, B-list restorations are a different beast than A-list restorations. I think evaluating them in the same fashion doesn't make much sense.

As gweempose says, "Call it whatever you want". The bottom line is how does it look/play and what do you think it's current value is. If I said I thought it was worth 7-10k, then the push back would be justified. At 4.7k, it's arguably a nice example. Also important to note that I've seen really expensive restorations that didn't play well at all. This pin plays fast/awesome.

It's all good...

#49 11 years ago
Quoted from McCune:

You are right , I should have provided a little info on why I don't think it is High End, like Scotch tape holding the tags on or a missing flipper opto spring or wrong coil in the gorilla and other reasons that tell me you shouldn't have used the term High End,as it means something else, then the pin for sale in this thread.
High end means near perfect and very very clean no part untouched. You could have stated " Custom Restoration" and no one would have busted your balls !
Sorry for being honest .
Since you requested Congo pictures of my original untouched Congo, here they are . Not perfect but nice unmolested example!
Jim

Looks like a very nice example. Listen, I'll call my pin whatever I want. Since I provided plenty of pictures, people can decide for themselves...

Last time I try and trade on this forum...all this BS and not one Paragon lead. Definitely not an efficient use of time.

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#52 11 years ago
Quoted from McCune:

I agree, just don't do it publicly on a pinball forum as it might mislead unsuspecting new people !
Jim

THIS ISN"T A "FS" POST. THIS IS A "FT" POST. The only "unsuspecting new people" are those that own a "High-end Paragon Restoration". You don't give a crap about helping anyone, you just care about showing off your collection and making others feel smaller than yourself. Have fun, man!

#67 11 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

You've had high end restorations, including one from Chris Hutchins, and you would still refer to this Congo as a "high end restoration"?

This all makes sense! Nothing wrong at all with tradeoffs that you admit that were made due to it not being an "A list" title. But I think it is perfectly reasonable to point out that those "tradeoffs" are what prevent this from being a "high end restoration". And I think it is more than just semantics. I think it is an important distinction.

Hey Rob,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. No matter what you call it (HUO, High-end, Custom, whatever), pictures and the name of the restorer are more important (which I provided).

From my perspective, the definition of a high-end restoration for an A-list title is different than for non A-list titles. Again, this is my opinion. For example, I have a Fish Tales that had an awesome PF and had a crappy cabinet. I had the cabinet restored by a great local guy and married it with the awesome PF (untouched). I consider it a high-end FT. With the new decals and cabinet restoration, I probably have $2,800 in the pin (paid $1,400 and invested $1,400 in the restoration). It plays awesome, looks great, but the underside of the PF hasn't been restored, so it doesn't look like a typical A-list restoration (by HEP, for example). I would argue that paying HEP/Keller/Kelley/etc. to make my FT perfect wouldn't be a wise use of money. Nevertheless, it's arguably much, much nicer than 99% of the FT's in existence (since most people are reluctant to invest in this title). I claim the same is true for my Congo. In fact, the custom cabinet/clear is just awesome. Is the back of the pin that nobody sees as beautiful as the rest of the pin? No. But I don't care about this.

Here's another example...is it a requirement for a "high end" restoration to have an elaborate clear coat job? Hope not, because I personally think some titles play like crap with many layers of clear. In fact the Keller MM didn't have extra clear coat (other than the clear that included with the repro PF). Like me, Chad happens to prefer restoring/playing pins that are closer to their original form (which didn't include 4-6 layers of ceramic clear).

To me high-end, simply means on the high-end of the quality spectrum. If the pin is in the top 5% of the spectrum, I see no problem calling it high-end.

Oh yeah...one other fairly important point. I've had nearly aesthetically perfect pinballs that played like crap. From my perspective, the quality of the play should be factored into a pinballs "rating" (but it typically isn't, because it's so hard to qualify). In fact, I just finished restoring a STTNG that was 8 aesthetically but a 10 in terms of playability. Now it's a 9+ (http://s1205.beta.photobucket.com/user/snaroff/library/STTNG%20restoration) It too, doesn't have a fancy clear coat...the natural PF plays beautifully...no reason to mess with it.

Food for thought...

#68 11 years ago
Quoted from mechslave:

Wow, the peanut gallery sure succeeded in deflating a really unique offering.
How many Congos like this will you ever see, much less offered up on the forum? With the way it was torn apart, not too damn many. Ridiculous.
Incredibly unique machine Steve! Good luck!

Thanks man! It's definitely off the market now

There are a couple Paragon's in the FLiPS group I'm in, so I know where I can get my fix (one is only 2 miles down the road).

I just thought it was an interesting idea. Didn't expect all the flack...good "trial run" that certainly discourages me from ever doing any business here. Since I don't sell/trade very often, it's no big deal. I have local folks who would love this Congo when the time comes...

#69 11 years ago
Quoted from coasterguy:

Some just want a perfect example of the pin they love. We are lucky to have high-end restorers. Restored cars are cool right? Or are they only meant to be driven?

Restored cars are cool, however most high-end car restorations are never driven (and drive like crap, as a result). I have a buddy who has a stable of rare, high-end muscle cars and they are art...never driven. Most cost a fortune (north of $250k).

Most high-end pin restoration are played very little, and it's typically the responsibility of the owner to fully "dial it in". High-end restorers get paid too much to sit around playing machines. More importantly, they don't want to dimple the PF or ding/damage the machine in any way.

Everyone's definition of perfect is going to be slightly different. Folks who play a lot will focus more on play. Folks who never play, focus purely on aesthetics. Most folks I hang with do both, so it's a balancing act. Oh yeah, for most of us, it's also a function of $$. I considered having HEP do a Centaur for me, and the cost was simply objectionable (and Chris himself warned me about the pitfalls of investing too much in this title). Instead, I bought a high-end restoration (dare I say from a "hobbyist". Here are pictures:

http://s1205.beta.photobucket.com/user/snaroff/library/Centaur

From my perspective, this is near perfection aesthetically and plays awesome (at a fraction of a typical A-list restoration cost). Since Centaur is not considered A-list, it would be nearly impossible to get 10k out of it (probably the low-end of the cost spectrum for a top name restorer).

So, saying you spent 15k or more to restore an A-list title is so ho-hum (since anyone can throw money and/or time at any problem).

#75 11 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

I don't think that is necessarily true. I had a ride in a 1959 Porsche Speedster R today that was worth close to $350k. It is driven regularly, for the very reason that you mention: to keep it driving nicely. And drive nicely it does!
I think the same goes for the majority of people who have HEP titles. I don't know anyone who is in this hobby to just look at their pins....though I'm sure a few of those people exist...I just think it is a very small minority.

Sure, I have no way of verifying my assertion that "most" aren't driven. It's really hard to say. I know my friend doesn't drive his, and if I owned them I wouldn't drive them either

There's another reason they aren't driven...they are restored to be accurate examples, and upgrading them with more modern suspensions/tires/whatever isn't considered goodness when it comes to some of these "show" cars.

I certainly hope the HEP titles get played!

#76 11 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

And this is where we differ. Whatever work is required to do a "High End Restoration" shouldn't change just because someone says a certain title isn't an "A List" title. Who decides what an A List title is anyway? One persons C List is another's A List. Obviously some pins are worth more than others, but again, when they are restored, the definition of the *type* of restoration that was done shouldn't change based on the title that was restored.

Sure, I understand the allure of this type of "concrete" definition. That's why I brought up the clear coat issue. If a "High End Restoration" has a precise definition, then how it is clearcoated should be part of the specification. No? Other issues...does it include all new coils? Does it include all new switches? Does it mean the cabinet is perfect? (i.e. no visible cracks). I've had (and seen) many "High End Restorations" where old coils and old switches were installed (not to mention less than perfect cabinets).

My point: Unless the specification for High End is very well specified and adhered to, it's meaningless! That's why I stick to my more fluid definition of high-end being in the top 5%. It's more flexible and works for A/B/C listers. It doesn't give you the false impression that "high end" is clearly defined or adhered to (which believe me, it isn't).

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