(Topic ID: 148616)

FSPA Rule Confusion


By Spyderturbo007

4 years ago



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  • 12 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Ferret
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    #1 4 years ago

    My league starts tonight and I'm a little confused by some of the FSPA rules. I've been working with Joe at PAPA who has provided a ton of invaluable help (Thanks Joe if you're on this forum!!!). I've bothered him enough for now, so I thought I would post here for some help.

    I was asked if I wanted to run a league so I thought I would throw myself in front of the bus and give it a shot.

    The confusion surrounds grouping (I also have questions about playoffs, but that can wait).

    Grouping:

    The league was dis-banned about 6 - 9 months ago when the people running the league had to step away for other commitments. When we played previously, we had 4 player matches and you were awarded 7, 5, 3, or 1 points depending on how you placed in your group. At the end of the night, your point total was added to your cumulative points and everyone was placed in a ladder format and grouped from there. For example, the top 4 people with the most points for the season were Group 1, the next 4 people were Group 2, and so on.

    The FSPA rules seem totally different and are relatively independent of the cumulative points (at least the way I'm reading things).

    Section 6.3 states "After each group match, players within each group are re-arranged in descending order based on their effective points earned in that match.", but Section 5.1 & 5.2 appears to define Effective Points differently than Game Points, but doesn't really expand on how Effective Points are handed out...other than getting 2 Effective Points for a forfeit.

    Section 6.2 goes on to describe Ladder Rank, which makes sense to me, although they fail to indicate if the ladder rank is determined based on just the previous match points, cumulative points. It also doesn't indicate if you should use Effective Points or Game Points.

    Group movement:

    If I'm reading this right, most of the group movement has nothing to do with cumulative points and ladder rank? It looks like you group everyone into a ladder, spit them into groups and then move people around from there? It appears as though once you define the ladder, you move the bottom two players in Group A down to Group B and the top two players from Group B up to Group A.

    So that means that even though the bottom two players in Group A have more points than the top two players in Group B, the are placed in a lower group?

    It just doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps I'm missing something?

    #2 4 years ago

    Effective points come into play if there is a forfeit. This removes the incentive to forfeit a game in order to move down into a group of weaker players. Effective points are only used to calculate group movement (up, down, or stay) and do not get added to actual cumulative points.

    So if player 2 forfeits 2 games in a match of 4 games their effective points for group movement calculation is total match points plus 4 effective points. See below:

    Actual Match total:
    Player 1 - 17
    Player 2 - 6
    Player 3 - 7

    Effective points for group movement:
    Player 1 - 17 moves up
    Player 2 - 6 + 4 = 10 stays in same group
    Player 3 - 7 moves down

    #3 4 years ago

    So does that mean that if there are no forfeits, then the entire Section 6.3 on Group movement doesn't apply?

    That would mean that the ladder is calculated based on Game Points only and there is no movement as outlined here:

    "Players are switched between each pair of adjacent groups according to the following rules:

    - If either or both of the groups have three or less players, the top-ranked player in the lower group (that match's winner) switches places with the bottom-ranked player in the higher group (that match's loser). The winner of group 1 does not move.
    - If both groups have four players, the two highest group-ranked players (winners) from the bottom group switch with the two lowest-scoring players from the next-higher group. Each pair of players moved maintain their relative rankings. Consider the following example of the bottom two groups of a league"

    If that's the case and there is no movement defined by Section 6.3, then why does the short version of the rules (player guide) have the following section on grouping?

    "At the end of each week, the group winner will move up a group, and the low scorer in the group will move down. This group movement “bubbles” players into groups of similar skill, and also ensures you’ll get to meet and play against many different people through the season."

    I can't find anything in the full version of the rules that defines the movement outlined in the short version of the rules.

    #4 4 years ago
    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    So does that mean that if there are no forfeits, then the entire Section 6.3 on Group movement doesn't apply?

    No. It means that if there are no forfeits the actual score and effective score are the same.

    Effective Score - "any player who forfeits games of a match will receive two (2) effective points for each game forfeited. Players with valid scores for a game will receive effective points >equal to their actual league point count< for that game."

    With 9 players in 3 groups it looks like this:

    Group 1 Actual Match total (no forfeits):
    Player 1 - 12 stay
    Player 2 - 8 down
    Player 3 - 10 stay

    Group 2 Actual Match total (no forfeits):
    Player 1 - 17 up
    Player 2 - 6 down
    Player 3 - 7 stay

    Group 3 Actual Match total (no forfeits):
    Player 1 - 13 up
    Player 2 - 8 stay
    Player 3 - 9 stay

    #5 4 years ago

    So in your example, my assumption is the "up, down or stay" is linked to the section in the Player Guide that says "At the end of each week, the group winner will move up a group, and the low scorer in the group will move down." and not based on the total (cumulative) number of points? So if the groups has 3 players, the top and bottom players move, but what about if there are 4 person groups?

    So when it comes to movement, cumulative points is irrelevant and all that matters is last week's score? If that's the case, why does ladder rank even matter?

    Sorry for such a confusion...there is just something I'm missing about this entire thing.

    #6 4 years ago

    I play in the FSPA (mighty mikes) ... What location are you running??

    #7 4 years ago

    It's called the River City Blues Club and is in Harrisburg PA.

    I made an example spreadsheet. Is this how things are supposed to work? (I can't seem to post an Excel file, so I had to do a screenshot). It just doesn't make sense to me that it can actually work this way.

    Ladder_(resized).JPG

    #8 4 years ago

    Laddering comes into play when there is enough players to have more than one division. Here is the playoff chart based on the number of player for a season:

    fspa_(resized).PNG

    For 9-14 players there is an A and B division. So with 10 players, latter positions 1-5 are A division and 6-10 are B division. In week 8 of a 10 week season, players get locked into the division their latter ranking is assigned to.

    #9 4 years ago

    So when it comes to weekly group assignments, the only thing that matters are the number of points a player scored the previous week?

    If it's a 3 person group the top person moves up and the bottom person moves down. If it's a 4 person group then the bottom two exchange places with the top from the lower group.

    Cumulative points are irrevelant for all grouping during the regular season?

    #10 4 years ago
    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    So when it comes to weekly group assignments, the only thing that matters are the number of points a player scored the previous week?
    If it's a 3 person group the top person moves up and the bottom person moves down. If it's a 4 person group then the bottom two exchange places with the top from the lower group.
    Cumulative points are irrevelant for all grouping during the regular season?

    Correct. That bubbles players together with similar skills over the season.

    #12 4 years ago

    You could've felt free to ask me these questions, Spyder. I'm glad to help.

    You nailed it with this comment:

    Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

    So when it comes to weekly group assignments, the only thing that matters are the number of points a player scored the previous week?

    Ignoring the rare fringe case where several people join or drop out simultaneously mid-season (which can cause weird regroupings), players will move up or down at most a SINGLE GROUP after each meet, based SOLELY ON THE RESULT OF THAT MEET. If you win, you move up; if you lose, you move down. Moves between a 3 player group and another 3 player group, or a 3 player group and a 4 player group, swap one person. Moves between two 4 player groups swap two people... this reduces stagnation in the 4 player groups.

    This scheme offers sanity to the group movements: a strong player in a high group who just had a bad night shouldn't be thrown down with total newbies next week. Similarly, a newbie in a low group who won their group shouldn't be "punished" by being thrown up with the top players next week. (IMHO that's especially important with newbies, you don't want them to be pummeled by players who are much stronger than them, and get them scared away from competitive pinball.)

    This does rely on the league official making a "reasonable" seeding of players at the start of the season. That's a little tricky for you since you're starting from scratch, but you can use results from the old league, or WPPR rankings, or other information about the players to help with initial seeding. (Subsequent seasons are easier, you can use something like players' outscored % as a basis for seeding... new players can go "in the middle" unless you know something one way or the other about their skill level.) Also, for the purpose of calculating divisions, we ignore the first two meets, specifically to help players naturally bubble into groups that are reasonable for them, in case the league official horribly misgrouped someone at the start of the season.

    The "effective point" stuff sounds way more complicated than it is. It's just saying that since we rely on a meet's results for grouping the next meet, someone who missed the meet and thus got 0 points didn't play BADLY, so they shouldn't be regrouped as if they played badly. Instead -- FOR GROUPING PURPOSES ONLY, THEY DON'T ACTUALLY GET THESE POINTS -- we pretend they earned 2 points per game they missed. ("2" isn't a random choice: if you look at the scoring rules, the average points per player per game is exactly 2: 3-1, 3-2-1, 4-3-1-0, etc etc) Since you're using the League Manager software, it'll take care of this for you, though certainly it's good for you to know what it's doing in case it does something that looks wacky.

    BTW, the FSPA Players Guide (or "Short Rules", though I personally dislike that term) is meant to fit on a single (double-sided) printed page and be friendly to newcomers, so it omits a lot of the nitty-gritty details of the rules like "effective points"... new players generally don't care about that stuff, and in fact may get scared away by it. That's why it notes that the full rules prevail if there's any "discrepancy".

    Hope this helps!

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