Whoa whoa. Jim? This is a VERY serious blow to put out there on the forums. I need to head this off at the pass immediately.

We've been doing playfields for NINE YEARS, and I can tell you this has only happened on a few dozen playfields on TWO RUNS. Those runs were Firepower and Space Shuttle - precisely the first two runs where we began using inserts from Mirco in Germany. (FYI the two titles were made back to back - nearly shipping on top of each other).

Mirco inserts had glass-smooth edges, and it so happened that those smooth edges created a risk that they could cleanly release themselves from the solid marine epoxy bed they were embedded with. And they did. On about 20 playfields (of 150) of the Firepowers, and about 20 (of 200) of the Space Shuttles. In our own hindsight, who would have thought that inserts could dance their way out of the grip of perfect epoxy embedding? Well... those inserts could. It was a staggering surprise. But we dealt with it. All those guys either exchanged, returned, refunded, or took partial refunds. Each guy to their own.

After that, any Mirco-insert playfield that came after that, we had to hand-grind the edges of the inserts with 40-60 grit belt sanders before they were seated in the epoxy/holes. Never been a budge since. Never was a budge prior.

(BTW - they don't release in Mirco playfields because of his solvent glue - which chemically bites into the plastic and holds.)

There have been times some of the guys have epoxied the wrong color insert in a hole during gluing sessions. We of course had to correct those - and guess what... it takes a copper pipe and a hammer (from the rear) to whack those out of the wood... and it flies across the room... a round plastic insert, surrounded in solid epoxy and a chunk of wood around it ! The wood gives before the epoxy ! As is true with epoxy. Pure solid goodness. That is how our inserts are seated, and have always been. The only run exception(s) as mentioned above, as epoxy will not hold to a glass smooth surface. (Nothing to bite)

Mike and I hold onto "keeper" playfields from each run (usually 2 each - one for the wall, one for swapping). So that's a total of (4) examples from every run, all the way back to 2005.

Not one single budge on any of the inserts across 9 years (including our 4 BK pairs from 2007). One exception: 1 of my Firepowers has a released corner on one of its hotdogs - because it was one that came back from an exchange, and it didn't bother me to keep it as my wall hanger.

Even this guy doesn't have inserts popping out. He said he could "feel the edges". He didn't say the inserts were released and cracking out through the clearcoat. Being able to feel the edges means the clearcoat has settled and there will be a *hint* of the circular rings felt on the stock surface that's hunkered down after about 6mos to a year. You could wetsand that puppy with 1500, 3000 grit... then machine polish it with compound... then buff it even further... and it would be perfect flat glass forevermore. That clear is perfect for that. 6 years old now. It's stopped moving. That's what you want.

Over the last 3 years (ended back last fall) we've slowly sold down our sitting stock of BK seconds that we've had all that time (we made waaaay too many BK pairs back in 2007)... but anyway, there may have been I dunno, three dozen ? None one of them had an insert budge over all those years... right to the moment each and every one went in a box and shipped outta here. Right up until last fall. 6 year old clearcoats too.

Not trying to win an argument. Just trying to correct the "CPR inserts lift and crack" blanket statement ASAP. That's a baaaaaad tagline to have for a repro playfield operation. I just can't have it.

I'm sure you'll reply with what you have seen on what titles - and I'm very curious myself. I can rest assure you that any exceptions have a specific *individual* reason (NOT run-wide!) localized to that particular playfield, environment, or user. There are always odd exceptions to everything. Like a Fathom with a popping insert? Or a Xenon? Or a EBD? Or an FG? Or an SBM? The list goes on. I'd have to see it to believe it. Everybody needs to be assured: it is truly impossible for a non-Mirco embedded insert to "just release" and crack it's way out of the face of our playfields. (Remember - pipe and hammer, entire wood chunk comes out with it) If there is an exception, there will be a very distinct odd-duck reason. I'd love to see pictures of some non-Firepower, non-Shuttle examples.

Anybody?

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

And the rest of the playfield ??? How are all the other inserts on that board? Are we talking about single a 1 inch hairline on one insert? You said that CPR inserts eventually lift and crack through the clearcoat. So all/most of your WW's inserts are effected, right?

Since you've been "struck by lightning" a few times, having what I'm trying to implore to you is a very very very very very rare occurrence on a CPR playfield, I have to make clear this is not standard fare as being declared.

OK, I see a crack line. But I wouldn't be questioning the WW playfield run or our insert methodology, I'm questioning what in the world is the playfield experiencing for that to happen. Mike & I have over 100 examples of CPR playfields spanning nine years of playfields (including yes - 4 Whirlwinds) without a single crack... I'd say you have a distinct something going on. Either your boards are drying out too fast, or humidifying too fast, or your particular UPS driver is bowing the boxes over a workhorse in the back of his truck... you get the idea.

So yes, I'm talking about your playfields, your individual landed CPR playfields. You are transposing those observations to the whole run or CPR world of inserts in general. No. Simply not the case. What your inserts are doing are farrrrrrrrrrrrr from the norm. Like probably 1 in 500. Which is why I question your concentration of occurrences. I'm not blaming you, but something specific is going on.

I could haul out 5000 pictures of every insert on Mike and I's 100 playfields... which testimony sets the paradigm?

Again, not a matter of winning an argument. We know yours are getting hairlines around some inserts.

I'm trying to find somebody else. Plus I want to see this alleged insert RELEASE and LIFTING - where you can catch a piece of paper or something on the edge. Non-Firepower, Non-Shuttle examples. All CPR playfields experience this, it's being claimed. So let's see 'em. Hundreds of you guys on here own 'em.

Anybody? Photos.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

That's the rub. There is no CPR insert problem. IMHO nothing about our insert methodology that needs to be fixed.

Why do I say that? I guess I need to start over and put it another way...

Let's say a playfield has 40 inserts on average... So a run of 100 playfields has 4000 inserts seated. Let's also say for sake of worst case that a massive TEN playfields in that 100 (10%) have a couple inserts hairline crack through the clear. So that's 20 inserts of 4000 seated. The other 3980 stay fine.

So after they are all delivered (because NONE leave here that way) and all the inserts do what they're gonna do, we end up with results of 3980/4000 inserts perfect vs. 20/4000 inserts cracked. That's IF 10% of boards are effected. I doubt it's even 1% truthfully. But we'll go with this...

So do CPR playfields have an "insert problem" ? Something in the way our inserts are seated is flawed? There is a problem to fix ?

OR (like me) would one ask: "What is it about those 20 inserts that made them crack, but didn't effect the 3980 ?"

Could be those specific inserts were seated differently? I've asked the guys, and they say no. It's hearty amounts of epoxy on each one. None are missed. Each has beyond plenty. They've been doing it for years. None are missed, or they wouldn't survive the machines later.

When you're gluing 4000 inserts, and say somebody tells you that a handful of them (you have no clue which ones) will end up cracking through the clear months or years later... what do you do differently? Is it even something you are methodically doing wrong? Especially when each one is seated so robustly, and you know it while you're doing it. When it takes a hammer to get them out. Which ones will it be? Why will they happen? It's truly a mystery. It's freakin' impossible for those to release. What does one "fix"? I've talked with the guys. It's shrugs. I shrug too.

Something is happening afterward. I don't know what it is, but it's always after they have left here. Not one, absolutely ZERO (0.00000) playfields here have ever cracked clear around an insert. Not one has ever left here that way, either. It's also ending up to be soooo few, that I'd have no idea what to change on the macro level to eliminate it. Is it even eliminate-able?

It also begs the question, why didn't all the other inserts equally crack around their perimeter on the same board? What allowed them stay put? If there is a macro methodology problem, they're all seated the same, thus why not all 40 inserts showing this?

I'm totally for fixing a problem if we didn't do inserts correctly, but I think the cause lies outside here. I truly do. I also don't think the insert(s) have released from their foundation at all. They're not free floating and "rising up"... I think the border between wood and plastic has expanded/contracted enough to make a split. The insert isn't heading anywhere. If it was, it could wiggle like a loose tooth. It would be sticking above playfield level, and you could catch a credit card on the edge. I'm not seeing that on these examples. I see a split, which is an indicator of expansion/contraction. I don't know how we can prevent that here.

I'm up for any ideas. How does one "fix" 3980/4000 inserts to bring it to 4000/4000 ? Especially when it happens anywhere from during shipping to months/years later? There's got to be experts on here that know about this wood stuff. Any guitar makers or anything?

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

Guys,

I'm well aware of Jim's cracks now. He's been struck three occurrences of cracks on playfield inserts. He's provided photos. He's not making it up. I get that. The Firepower I get - and I think I remember he got it exchanged or credited or something (which people should do). That was one of the two runs with the Mirco inserts releasing from the epoxy. But the other two (BK and WW) are definitely odd to me. Those runs I've never been communcated with a single return/exchange/complaint of a runwide crack around insert issue. Not even sporatic ones years later. If there are, I want those people to step forward and email me to get some resolution.

Return for a complete refund is still available (always is). Exchange is only available until we run out of said playfield. Partial refund is also available to discount the original price paid, if one wants to keep the playfield as-is. Jim and I can email off the forum. I indeed want him to be happy and/or feel he was treated fairly for the playfields he got vs. the price(s) he paid. Or the freedom to abort totally, and return them and get his money back.

It's not Jim's fault, but I do worry about playfields going to his area I know he's not doing anything to the playfields, but how one guy gets playfields at all different times, from totally different runs, and they either immediately or later experience some insert cracks... it's an interesting concentration of the same rare case.

We had another customer that his playfields always arrived with a mashed corner on the box, making the upper right corner (every time the upper right, too) on those playfields get splayed a bit. Three different playfields. Three totally different UPS shipments, across three years. Amazing. All went through exchanges, and the second shipment always arrived immaculate. It's actually a running joke between us whenever he buys a playfield now. "will UPS smash my upper right corner" Luckily, the last couple years the phenomenon stopped.

Still looking for any other insert clear/crack instances (photos) from any of you hundreds of guys on there who have CPR playfields. Well aware of Jim's. Anybody else? I'm trying to get an idea of truly how common or uncommon this is. Because nobody has reported anything to me since the FP and SS days.

Also, any ideas on how to increase "3980/4000 good inserts to 4000/4000 good inserts" results from any woodworker types on here?

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

KeithinMI:
Forgive me if I can't remember every transaction, so correct me if I am wrong: I can see your pair should be one of the reduced-priced ones, the later-selling "seconds" that had ugly woodgrain rolled over in tan-colored enamel (such as in this case, the entire shooter lane). That is the "white" you are seeing peeking into the right outlane. It's maple-colored enamel.

- - -

FYI to all, as there are a couple dozen of these out there: This was a practice done prior to silkscreening, to rescue cosmetically blemished whitewoods that otherwise would have been thrown out. Yield is everything, and some boards shouldn't be wasted because of something cosmetic that not all pinballers would find off-putting. Especially for a discount. Partially tan-rolled wood is visually much more acceptable over deep brown sand-machine burnt wood.

You may see CPR boards like that from time to time... a few coming from every few runs, including some of the upcoming Strikes & Spares playfield release in a couple weeks. Great way to save about a hundred bucks or more. It's a way we rescue what otherwise could have been waste (both actually and financially) and another few games get "saved" that otherwise wouldn't.

On another note, I will be the first one to apologize to the OP for what was supposed to be a ForSale thread.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com