RAM is one of the least likely parts in a pin to cause a fire. What you describe is a highly improbable scenario.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with a garage.

Just because there are a few nutters of there doesn't mean you should never leave the house.

Yeah but some days.. it really does seem like the better choice lol

And it sounds to me like you have even less knowledge of electronics than I do.. I don't even feel qualified to post on half of these threads, so how does a brakes guy tell an electronics guy what's what...what's your qualification on this, other than "you have a hunch, but you really don't know."?

Do you even do any of your own board work? At all?

You do realize that every powered mod on the market is "pick up voltage somewhere else in a machine and feeding it where it wasn't designed to go" right?

Can we all please NOT suggest that people stop creating new products that hobbyists like me can afford to improve the reliability of their games?

No one cares about all your what-if crackpot scenarios too-many-pins. You don't want to buy something, then don't. No reason to try and instill fear and doubt into the hobby. Have you ever heard the saying, "If you're not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem?" Welp, which are you?

Not a new product. Probably the 5th or 6th generation of an existing "product". I do agree about discouraging people though. There are only so many people making stuff for pinball.

You have a point about affordability. Ultimately it's going to come down to who wants to assemble them the cheapest at this point because the cat is out of the bag in terms of how to build them. Even the 6116 and 5101. I posted a schematic of the combined enable for 5101 in another thread. That in itself is extremely basic, but from there the rest is just connecting one pinout to another.

http://pcbshopper.com/

Best bet is to figure it out yourself. These adapters are dead simple and all the info you need for the "schematic" is available on the web. You might spend a couple weeks figuring out PCB design, but once you do the door will be open to do all kinds of stuff.

I'm probably just going to post all of my eagle files for NVRAM adapters at some point in the near future. Maybe the "community" can organize a PCB run, then everyone can have the opportunity to build their own. The playing field is even for "builders" with the 6264 since it can be done with a basic SOIC-DIP adapter. Might as well be even for the 5101 and 6116 if I'm going to get priced out there too.

DATA SHEETS. Many eprom or memory adapters are pretty easily figured out just with data sheets.

It's probably wise to play around with prototypes of designs first and/or spend more time building basic circuits with logic gates and transistors. Try to create your own version(s) especially if you're combining the chip enables. I guess you could always use something someone else already created or put out there -- or have someone else make up boards, but you also have the opportunity to learn some pcb design software and then start creating new products that don't even exist yet.

Stand on the shoulder of GIANTS. I think about that saying often. You can learn so much from others, but don't forget they're the ones that helped pave the path that got you to where you are.

Indeed, all adapters are pretty simple, you do not need much electronic knowledge.

Therefore I do not understand the discussion, who was the first and who copied a design. I for myself "play" with ram-adpaters since 2004 (inspired by Tom Callahan from pin-logic - if anybody has to get credit it is Tom Callahan), at first used ZMD NVRAM-chips. In January 2010 I have built the first ram-adapter using FM1608, later followed different improovements for different pinball machines. We have designed them even for Zaccaria, Gottlieb System1 and Gottlieb-System 80.

With the exeception of GTB sys-1, sys 80 and sys3, all 5101, 6116 and 6264-adapters are so primitive, that there cannot anything be "stolen" from the schematics point of view.

The actual performance of all built adapters, be it anypin, be it pinforge, be it the rand-adapters and so on is the indiviual PCB layout.
For me it is important, to have a nice pcb-layout, a nice silkscreen and good quality parts.
Everybody may make his own design. For me, a NVRAM-adapter is not more than a "lifetime-battery", so that I did never produce a universal adapter, because to my opinion, there is no need for that. Other producers may think others, but that is my opinion and my adapters sell fine here.

To show, how primitive the 6264 schematics are, here are the schematics, 1 line connection, not more. Pretty simple, isn´t it.

I also show my 5101-adapter. Schematics are primitive too, but ist was my challange, to make it as small as possible, so my I made my own design. I never did see this adapter soldered that way, mightbe, someone had done the schematics before, but the design is my creative performance and I do not think, there was "stolen" anything.

Here the pics:

schematics 6264 NVRAM-Adapter, 5101-Adapter TOP, 5101-Adapter BOTTOM, 6264-Adapter in T2

6264 - FM16W08 schematics.JPG
IMG_0834.JPG
IMG_0843.JPG
IMG_0284.JPG

People nay-saying this advice do not have a clue what they are talking about. I deal in large loss liability litigation. EVERYONE is brought in, and everyone has engineers and experts to sift through the ashes to find out every possible pocket they can go after.

Great product, but trust me, protect yourself against possible allegations of negligence. You could be sucked dry in legal costs alone defending yourself in an action where it is determine you were not liable in the end.

Could not agree more.

Just wait until someone scores a cheap stash of ZMD U63764.... I used to buy those for under $5 each.

I don't get it how installing one of these (or other nvram battery replacements available) can cause a major disaster (fire, dead mpu, etc).

My point exactly - it isn't if your item caused the problem it is the fact that they go after everyone they can. And if you are on that list defending yourself can cost $1000's or even $10's of thousands of dollars.

Insurance isn't all that expensive but even with insurance messing with these machines can be very risky.

As far as my knowledge of electronics - one of the posters above is correct - my knowledge is very limited to say the least. But my knowledge of law and what can happen if you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time is fairly extensive.

I never suggested people should stop building mods or items to make these neat old machines better. I just said I wouldn't do it without going through some research - talking with an attorney - creating a LLC - and having good liability insurance.

If someone wants to take a chance of losing everything if they happen to be unlucky enough to get sued without insurance that is their right. But even with insurance it is tough sometimes if something bad happens and I hate to think about it without having insurance to cover yourself just in case.

Again - I don't have a dog in this race and I shouldn't really give a shit but I just though I would suggest the guy building these things might want to think about what could happen. Not my problem but I thought he might want to do a little more homework before he gets into something over his head that looked like a good idea before all his research was done.

For someone who doesn't have a dog in this race you seem to be the most verbose. It was pretty apparent after your first post that your advice wasn't wanted. Continuing to beat a dead horse just makes you look ignorant.

Note to self: Never sell *anything* to too-many-pins...

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I've mentioned the risks people take without properly insuring themselves, and setting up number companies or corporations or whatever where applicable to protect themselves as opposed to sole proprietors bring personally exposed. But bring it up once, and let it go, to each their own.

In any case, above that, are these actually up for sale yet? I'll take a batch when available.

I don't get it with people on these forums. You try to warn people about potential issues with something they are doing and wish them luck and other people think somehow you are up to something. Good luck to all - do what ever you dam well please - it really doesn't matter to me.

I just don't understand how somehow I am the bad guy by stating it is risky selling stuff or modifying stuff without being properly insured to protect yourself.

Don't worry - I never buy anything I can't see in person so you will never cross paths with me all the way down in Texas and I have never sued anyone over anything. I have been sued on three different occasions - never being the one that did anything wrong - always wining - but always have a ton of legal fees to defend myself for doing nothing wrong.

I thought about buying a bunch of these.

I decided to use remote battery holders instead.

Ordered 30 of them today.

Don't waste your time trying to help people here - they don't seem to get it. Let them learn the hard way and they might understand then!

Enough said!

No risk either way to buyer and I don't see any advantage to using batteries over this mod. My only concern would be long term issues with chips on these but still likely cheaper than batteries every year.

Please understand as a buyer you really don't have to worry and in no way was I suggesting these would cause issues for people who decided to use them. But as someone building and selling something like this it is a high risk venture without insurance and LLC protection.

Hopefully that is the case. Your notion of helping is very much force feeding people long after they have said no thanks!

[EDIT]

The more the merrier with NVRAM. I've always said that. Anyone should be able to create simple things like this and essentially offer a service to the community for others that can't solder or don't care to solder. $15 is a fair price to ask to perform that service.

As for the original post, it's best I don't get involved in any further drama on the nvram subject. The OP has every right to produce an off-the-shelf adapter, build or outsource a 5101 board, source components through whatever channels desired & offer the product at any price. As far as getting into anything from an ethical standpoint, that's at the individual level. Ultimately it's up to whoever is offering products for sale to decide if what they're doing is best for themselves, their customers and in this case, the pinball community.

In any case, I think it's good to have the variety of nvram adapters out there like we do. A lot of people have really had some unique pcb layouts.. solder blobs to convert between 6116/6264 on the RanD adapter.. the nice looking $16 adapter recently that looked really well built.. AnyPin of course with it's ability to easily transform into various types of memory. This will be another adapter to add to the mix. Best of luck with your product(s)

No individual is going to make $10K+ on these in a short term. Not in this market. The person who finally finds the bottom price might make that over several years. There is a market and there was the opportunity for a bunch of people to make SOME money with similarly priced products. People have ruined it for themselves by driving it down in such large chunks. The guy who went to $16 could easily have gone to $22-$24 with bulk discounts and still sold just as many. Yeah, maybe that doesn't "help the community", but anyone who says they're just doing it to "help the community" in selling these things is full of shit. I'm not saying that from a butt-hurt perspective because I fully believe that everyone has the right to assemble this basic stuff and sell them at any price they want. If I got butt-hurt, that would make me a hypocrite. It's just basic economics. No disrespect to the "$16 guy". I think they're actually selling one of the nicest versions of these.

The parts resellers are the only people I actually feel sorry for in all of it. To most of us this is just a hobby, but to many of them it's their living. Their potential for profit on these is gone and they're probably sitting on a bunch of product that will be way harder to sell now. Obviously these things are a small percentage of their overall inventory but the logic applies across the board. Of course, if they're good entrepreneurs they'll find a way to make good out of it, and like I said above, that's the game we're playing.

Just my $.02, as usual. Not trying to engage in a debate with anyone.

Absolutly agree - so is free market economy - I also do not try to engage in this debate, anybody who wants, can make his money as he wants and I wish them good luck and much sucess.

If I wanted, I could offer every NVRAM-Adapter as a DIY-Kit for 9,99 USD and even then my win would be about 2,50 USD - with original CYPRESS-chips from this source http://de.futureelectronics.com/de/technologies/semiconductors/memory/fram-mram/Seiten/5002417-FM16W08-SG.aspx?IM=0 and with professional self-desigend PCBs and goldplated headers. The PCB and sips are not so expensive.

I must sell only 3000 and I have my 10K+

But I will not do that. this would be very uncollegial against the competitors.

The risks you are mentioning are not possible. Literally he has zero exposure. Not an insurance company in the world gives a shit if a chip on a board cause a pinball to catch fire and then burn down the house. The insurance company will determine that the pinball started the fire, if that, end of investigation.

Your right - I am stupid and so is the other guy that tried to warn people about risk involved. Best of luck to all you guys that think bad things never happen and that you can't get sued over stupid shit. I lost a business over something that had nothing to do with me so I am just saying - if you are selling a product you are at risk but that is up to you.

Ok, I tried REALLY hard not to jump on this one but WHAT THE HELL

What if the day the mail man put the chip in the mail box a terrorist puts a mail bomb in the same box. The happy pinball owner comes running out to the box and when he opens it the bomb goes off. Was the chip or the maker responsible for the explosion and death? the answer would be NO! its pretty much the same as working on wiring in your own home. did you know that as a home owner you are able to play with 220v in any way you see fit? look it up you are. guess what happens if you burn your house down from playing with 220v. THE INSUARANCE COMPANY DOESN'T PAY!!

Now since I digress, let me pull it all together. If you buy a chip and if you install it and if something happens, guess who is responsible? the person who bought and installed it YES!!!! maybe he is selling them as paperweights, maybe the are for pretty (women love that shit), hell, maybe its for a NASA satellite. DOESN"T MATTER. you bought it, you installed it, YOUR RESPONSIBLE FOR THE OUTCOME!

Jesus, maybe just a little self responsibility just once.

P.S. still looking for a BOP

Not sure why somebody gives thumbs down to the liability insurance suggestion.
He's completely right -- with the dirt cheap price of an umbrella policy, running naked without liability insurance really just isn't a good idea. If you even think about selling stuff regularly, insurance should be one of the first thoughts.

You never know - somebody could eat one and then sue the mfr... They would claim that nowhere in the instructions does it say "Do not eat!" And, yes, there are people that stupid out there.

Actually -- Philips was the last mfr to discontinue these (other than Intersil's mil-spec version) and they pumped a shitload of them into the market. We were able to buy these through a master distributor long after they were dropped.

Philips parts are not the only one to have been dumped on, though. EVERY brand, speed and power of 5101's is suddenly out there enmasse. In fact, ANY part you want is suddenly available in tens of thousands.
Now when somebody emails me while pointing to a source for IC's and says "see, they have them... why don't you have them" -- first thing I do is look for part number UDN7180A. If they list tens of thousands in stock (they often do) - there can only be one explanation.

"testing/educational use only"

problem solved.

and put me down for one. i like living on the edge.

I would also like to say once again. If you think that you are helping and you actually are not, then you have to know when to keep quiet.

Here's a hint. If someone is not asking for advice in a thread where they are selling a product, it's probably in your best interest to send them a PM if you are REALLY looking out for them.

Why would you, instead, want to insist that they are selling an "unsafe product".

Anyone doing this isn't looking out for the seller, that's for certain.

If the intent of all this is "buyer beware", then it is all simply nonsense. Whenever you modify anything form the original manufacture's design (like a pinball machine), then you are responsible for those actions. Not the hobbyist that created a product/add-on, ect. It was your choice to try it and it's also your fault if it blows up, catches fire, kills someone, ect.

Very nice! Looking at them in person, they look every bit as good as I'd expect.