I have to say, i played it last year at expo and this year.....the one i tried this year played terrible, one weak flipper, stuck ball and the software was really lacking. Sorry, That was my experience

Post back when the production machine is out so we can hopefully see a better review.

When will that be again?

Missing 2 delivery dates is an issue. Now we are left with a promise that they are "close" but cannot provide a date. We now have no idea when we can expect the game. That is a major concern for me at least.

Hey you forgot one.

xtube_pw.jpg

hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe....

for sale here with new backbox art too...

lebowski-1.jpg

So what your saying is that we are in the same situation as everyone else that is waiting on a preorder from JJP PPS ect

I hate that the original songs are gone, but thanks for the laugh!

Is that a good thing? Do we want to be there? DP had a lot of talk last year about being different and doing things right. They weren't going to be like the rest of the crowd. It is my sincere hope that they come through on that boast.

I'll give it a rest for now to stop from repeating myself in multiple threads. I'll wait to hear what comes next. Hope the bad news sections get smaller.

That's awesome to read.
We're all in the same boat and you have the right to be concerned. If you're still doubting it, post a pic of the game on your Facebook page (or elsewhere) and I'm positive even your non-pinhead friends and colleagues will reassure you of this purchase.

This is the fuck up that's called Buma/Stemra: http://www.bumastemra.nl/en/

They are responsible for this thread on Pinside. This organization represents "the artist" in a very broad manner. They collect taxes on music sold (cd's, mp3's etc.) and they have their own ("mystical") system of collecting these taxes when music is played before an audience (live performance, playing music in front of a crowd, playing music on the work floor or using music in movies or other productions).

For as long as this organisation exists (over a 100 years) they have several "incidents", one involving the disappearance of several millions of Euro's in collected "music rights" so it's reasonable to say that most of our fellow Dutch citizen really HATE their guts. Read something about one of their scandals here: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111201/17275016947/anti-piracy-group-caught-pirating-song-anti-piracy-ad-corruption-scandal-erupts-response.shtml and also here: https://torrentfreak.com/copyright-corruption-scandal-surrounds-anti-piracy-campaign-111201/

As a Dutch citizen myself I had some conflicts with them as well. We had music playing at our office space (6 workers listening) and also in our showroom and one day some person walks in and introduces herself as somebody from Buma/Stemra. She asked if I was aware of the fact that I had a radio station playing in my office building. My sarcastic answer didn't do much good, so within a couple of weeks I received a bill of 580 Euro's as a YEARLY tax for playing music for a number of people and a work space being x square foot...

Me protesting didn't do much, so from that day on we pay a yearly amount of money just to play the radio on the work floor... Getting information from these people on their rules, how things work and what I could (not) do on a simple thing as playing a radio on the work floor got me several different kinds of stories from these buggers and also several different amounts of money I had to pay, ranging from several hundred to several thousand Euro's. I finally settled on an amount I had on paper and payed that to get rid of threats to sue me.

Not to talk down this problem, but it might give you guys some insight on the problems DP must have faced with this organisation: pinball music is something completely new for these Buma/Stemra a**holes and they must have seen $$$ in this, changing the rules down the road as they did with me.

So you aren't free to listen to music? That sounds insane. But that organization isn't the reason why DP can't sell us a pin with licensed music.

Yes you are, but not in an environment outside of your home. As soon as you play music "for others" you officially have to pay something, depending on the size of the crowd, the circumstances (work, party, performance, etc.) and the size of the room.

And yes they are: DP had the licenses taken care of some time ago, when Buma/Stemra came back much later with new "rules" about using the music they bought the rights to (as Jaap explained during the seminar). I was writing e-mails and calling about my relatively simple problem for several months or so, so I can imagine this "discussion" could go on for quite a while. At some point DP had to make a choice because they need to move on and they need to stay on some budget for using music in this machine.

That's insane! So they could show up at a holiday office party and slap a fine on you? How do the Dutch tolerate this?

Yes they can, as long as it's not a private/closed party. Also work space and space that can be entered by the public fall under these laws. Public performances, shows, DJ's playing music for a crowd, music being played by a pinball machine, you playing a CD you bought in front of others: it all falls under these Dutch laws and TBL, officially being a Dutch product, does also. Not everything will be scrutinized as thoroughly as when there are commercial gains to be made of course.

The main problem here is that these guys have bought the rights and they HAVE the rights. But later on Buma/Stemra came back to them stating new rules because they must have found out that DP was going to use parts of the music or use the music from a movie without showing that specific part of the movie and somebody must have found out that this was not covered in the agreement (why? beats me).

It's in America too. A small club here closed (rather than pay up) because their local band played songs that were not their own and got caught. I'm in the middle of nowhere but they send people anywhere they think they can collect.

Here's the link:http://hamptonroads.com/2009/06/suffolk-bar-may-have-back-down-over-copyright-suit

The music industry is crazy. The "don't play music publically, not even in a restaurant" has been a rule for as long as I can remember. Technically the RIAA (american music industry) could go across the country just handing out fines. Even if you pay for music via Sirius/XM, you have to get a special business listening subscription:
https://listenercare.siriusxm.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4933/~/can-i-use-my-consumer-siriusxm-subscription-in-my-business%3F

You wonder why bands re-record their own music, or go on tour (because they make no money off albums, it all goes to the recording studio), or simply startup their own recording studio. The music industry is a bloated cash cow.

Yup. My sister just went through this with a restaurant they opened. She showed it to me and at first it came off as a scam.

After looking into it was legit.

During research I found an story of a guy that had a restaurant..that once a week he would preform live..his own original never recorded songs.

He to had to pay the 'tax'

maybe a perfect opportunity for the band.. barenaked ladies to step in and do some cover songs for DP lol

Awe ya there I am, finally made it to pinside!

It's the same thing here. To play the tv or radio in a shop, etc you need to pay royalties. Like the story here, most don't know about it or just ignore it until you get caught. Your local bar doesn't just pay for directTV like you do at home....

I got a long email from Barry this morning addressing all my concerns, I'm in this till the end and I believe the end is near.

Yet another example of why I will never pre-order a pinball machine. I would be crushed to find out the music was changed at this point, even though it sounds like they are doing their best to salvage the situation.

Really sucks for DP since it seems like they tried to do everything by the book. I'm sure it will still be a great machine and hope I get to play one or even own one some day.

Music industry sucks.

Production machines will be at the DPO in November.

correct......called ASCAP.......debate away.....I deal with it everyday, putting BGM (background music) in public spaces......

What's shitty is that same organization is probably going to want to juice operators for "public performance" for those re-recorded songs in the game for any route operators.

The good stuff

The good stuff....Muzak.JPG

I still think an easy solution is to have an "accessible" mp3 file storage solution that can be overwritten. Seems like an easy fix. One could then swap out given MP3's with any sound bite to what they want.

I could only imagine this group and the sound bites that would be put in place. To me this would be a blast to have as an option. Maybe even put ones in there that are not from the movie? Custom ones and all.

I am an IT guy, so for me I could visualize how this could be coded. Maybe I am missing something though.

I also feel bad for the DP guys. I think licensing has gotten out of control. Thus the work arounds that start getting created when the Greed engine kicks into high gear.

I'm already very happy with that.
Never really cared for the stars (I'm one of the card guys) but did miss the logo on the production apron pictures a couple days ago.
Reading that the logo is gonna stick, is all I need to hear.

Generally content owners want their licensees to be able to protect their content. The whole "just leave the door wide open..." is a easy technical choice, but not so easy from a licensing and support angle.

Part of the arrangement with the content owner is the owners generally want approval over how their material is presented and displayed... to make things 'open' would impede their ability to control that and can lead to the content being presented in ways they don't want. So typically they want such systems locked down.. not open.

So, how do pinball manufacturers get away with having original songs on pins that are played in public places? Obviously, they secured the rights to use the songs, but does that necessarily imply that they can be played repeatedly in a public venue? A radio station pays a usage fee, but that does not cover the restaurant that then plays the radio station. Someone who plays the same station at home is not affected. Also, are the laws different in Holland? U.S. pinball manufacturers don't seem to have this problem. Just curious how it works in this case.

(Pre)production games will be at DPO. I can only speculate on what the pre means, but it is certainly worth noting.

Significant changes have been made to the hardware, so I would think another round of public vetting is helpful to check the robustness of the new system.

Agreed. I'm not arguing against that at all. I was making the distinction between what DP said and what was mentioned above. Preproduction is not production. Hope to learn what the difference is in early November.

The pinball music license is a public performance license.

Only an idiot would have a pinball machine in his house where it would never earn any money.

To me that sounds like the tail wagging the dog.

So when the Blackhawks play a Chelsea Dagger at the UC, they bought the rights correct? I doubt Fratellis dictates how that MP3 of the song is stored and used. My guess is it is some open system that some tech can play at will. Then add and take away songs at will. Seems to me there would be a loop hole or two here. Maybe I am mixing apples and oranges though.

And if the machine had all custom audio clips, the content owner wouldn't even be in the loop, right?

wasn't the question, just want a fair review instead of someone playing a prototype that's been in the US for a year. If your going to complain about something at least be open to waiting for the real game.

You are crossing two different topics and mashing them together.

The listener of a radio station does not have a public performance license or license to reproduce the music. That's why a store/biz needs to have an arrangement to display/output to the public.

The pinball company DOES have a license to distribute, edit, and play the music. If the pin is in public or not has nothing to do with any of this.. the pinball company already has a license to play the music within the constraints. A person with a radio does not.

The reason why things might be different for DP is simply because of what kind of licensing arrangement they set out to strike from the beginning.

You don't typically go through the bulk royalty systems to get licensing for creative uses of music. Those entities are typically more for the cookie cutter deals for broadcast or performance royalties. For instance, a TV network playing an artist's song in their credits, a band playing cover music, or a DJ playing tracks. Not really the same as someone negotiating an agreement to rework or repurpose someone's work. That's where people like Roger Sharpe come into play to try to negotiate deals. Which is where all this gets murky how this could not be disclosed earlier given their engagement with Sharpe some time ago.

You are. The Blackhawks would be paying royalities to play the music.. but they would be using it within constraints defined by their arrangement. It's not like the listeners in the stadium then have the power to rearrange and repurpose the music on the fly. The music is being used and observed as it was intended and licensed.

When you start distributing the content... they still want to ensure the content is being used as it was licensed to be used. How far they go of course will vary based on the content and people involved.

Ah. Thanks. So, that's half the answer. Would the situation be different in Holland?

De flipperkast muziek licentie is een publiek optreden licentie.

You're welcome.

Dankjewel.

This thread is getting boring.

Dutch language is getting better though...

But now that original music is out, buma/stemra is out also and there is no music or artist to protect anymore. The music used is more freely usable if I'm correct and leaving the system open to change the music is like giving the customer a cassette tape that they can rerecord with new music. The customer can do what he wants with his cassette tape without hurting the guy that sold him the tape...

True, that is a good thing. But what if you put the dude dude dude song in, will it sound as good as the video last year?

Than this is a non-issue.

But can it be done easily so nobody notices you have changed the songs yourself?

I know in games, for example in footballgames, it is very hard to add sounds without sounding odd playing the game.

But this is only music, so maybe its easy as pie. Hope it is, .

het is een fluitje van een cent

Hahahaha rtr, .

The truth is the recording industry (not the artists creating the content, who still get screwed regularly to this day) only has so many thugs they can send out to shake down every restaurant and arcade. It's kind of similar to how they go after file sharers and pirates, going after the bigger servers and companies.

I worked in a music store where we played various Pandora stations all day, and I brought in music DVDs regularly to play on monitors. No one got in trouble for it...

What is the "dude, dude, dude" song people keep referencing?!

Also, as much as I enjoyed the character call outs from the youtube video, the clips were poorly edited, and in some cases poorly chosen (in my opinion). Hopefully they'll be cleaned up.