your advice is REALLY bad. A few games advertised at higher secondary market price is VERY different than selling a run fo 300 at more $ OR selling a run at all if not limited. Like it or not, the limited model is a good thing for spooky. It pushes demand, it gets some buying on speculation, it means they can get them all built in a reaosnable time frame.

Up the price or up the quantity and it may spell fewer sales. I think they have things figured out just right and I am more of the midset of why mess with a good thing.

IF multiples were flying off the secondary market at 1500-4000 markup then I may agredd with you. At this point, your advice is very bad for business. I have been in many colelctible market hobbies and seen many businesses fall off the tracks with making the changes you suggest.

Yup... I know exactly what you mean.

Unless Spooky is some kind of weirdly run business that wants everything to be super special to the detriment of their own survival, then they have to be looking at this RZ situation and kicking themselves for not leaving the door open to a second run.

And if anyone doubts that a "limited run with the possibility for more in the future (if the market is there)" won't still cause a buy-in based on the Fear of Missing Out, I offer you Stern's The Walking Dead LE/Premium situation. There were buyers that reluctantly paid the LE price because they didn't want to miss on the Prem / LE game features. If that game hadn't sold well, there would have been a WWE situation...where WWE LE owners are certainly left with a very unique game. BUT, if WWE had been a killer game, you can bet the house that a WWE Premium would have popped up in a flash...just like TWD Premium.

Credit to Stern...they super smart when it comes to the market.

If the game is good, it will sell. Period. If they aren't making games that are good...and have to force the money hand with both a lower price and creating this silly sense of demand, then the company won't be around long term anyway. But cutting out the potential for any future sales isn't smart. Even if they were to make another run of 100 or 200 in 2019. That's business for them.

and a starting business cant afford a WWE sort of game. It only makes sense at this stage to make limited runs as an insurance policy. Once they are insulated enough and able to build (and develop) games at a quicker rate then they may want to take on thise risks. Good business is what theya re doing right now.

Evidence of that:

Sold out #1 and made profits enough to grow into a new factory owned by them
Sold Out #2 and increase price slightly along with increased edition to match production. Presumably making profits and continuing to grow
Game #3 is a sub out for a major name! Game is effectively money in the bank
Game #4 is around the corner
Game #5 already in concept?

I woudl say they are doing things right

And it's fortunate for sellers that these are just trickling out of production, or the bottom would fall out quicker than you can say "tulipmania"!

Jersey Jack. He started a pinball manufacturing business. He didn't settle for a run of 150. And he certainly didn't sit on his hands when it came to pricing.

Never, ever, shut the door on manufacturing more... you want you exclusivity, then go the LE route.

Spooky have a different business model. They need to sell out and have limited runs that become collectible. More chance then that their next game sell out.

If they price higher, increase production run, they probably won't sell out or have a healthy secondary market.

This is working for Spooky. If it ain't broke…….

Say what you will about JJP - I think what he's been able to do is great - but I'm not sure you want to hold him out as a model of how to run a business.

Here's my collection so far. Have room to add a RZ$$I too someday.

snowflakes1_(resized).jpg

Jack is no longer in charge of his pinball manufacturing company. I don't see that happening to Charlie.

Nobody was laughing at the price. They were worried they'd never see their money again. Gene and his ramshackle operation didn't seem like a sure bet. That's why I didn't pony up the dough even though everybody saw the potential for making a tidy profit.

I still don't think people realize what a miracle it is that over 100 BBBs were actually produced and NOBODY got screwed. Well maybe now they do since the Predator and Jpop triumphs.

It's pretty easy to say "oh so many idiots passed on BBB at $4500!" but not everybody likes to gamble. In the same situation I'd make the same choice today.

And Jack had to have something like 9 million dollars injected into the business to stay afloat - good that he managed it but not something to copy.

And 9 million was injected because it was seen by someone as viable business to invest in.

Still doesn't change the fact that Spooky shouldn't corner itself into the "will never run again" camp. They'll never grow if they continually do that.

And if they're worried their games aren't good enough to sell on their own accord, then that's a fundamental problem unto itself.

Everyone knows they absolutely had to do it to even survive game one. They've admitted it. Everyone is also rooting for them to succeed...but at some point they need to take a leap of faith if they want to be a real player.

Ben Heck said it himself on someone's podcast... they should have charged more.

they already are doing that...

game 1 = limited = growth
game 2 = limited = still growing
Game 3 = unlimited = go buy a dominos right now if you want.

"They'll never grow if they continually do that."

Do you even think about what you type? Game 1 to game 2 doubled in numbers and they built a factory. Also heard they are already planning to add on to their building. If that isn't growth, what is?

gotta love that about Chuck!

sad that peopel are actually doing that.

You guys are obviously doing lots right!

if charlie made unlimited games, would you still have bought either AMH or RZ?

um... yes. I bought AMH before they were officially limited.

I personally bought both based on theme and could care less about "limited numbers" other than assuming that the lower production would hopefully mean quicker overall delivery.

Some good discussion and only time will tell if RZ is the next BBB. It's got a popular theme and low numbers being built. Great to hear Charlie answer a few questions. I can only imagine the challenge of starting a pin company and look froward to the next release.

I am sure the OP appreciates all the free bumps but let's not completely derail his for sale thread. This is a hot title and bet it will sell.

GLWTS!

These are pretty simple pins. I kinda hope that being a limited edition item is a good part of the appeal. If not, what's that telling Stern?

Not sure about hot but another huo just went up for sale or trade .....sure are alot up for sale for only 50-60 made which usually isnt a good sign. Same goes with all the hobbits for sale also. Glws op ... yours is the best deal at the moment

Nothing wrong with the game, I think it's just people flipping for a couple grand profit.

All the Hobbits are at cost or below all the RZ are over 2k higher. Completely different

I remember Ben looking to take a vacation and saying he was splurging because he did well on AMH. Sounded like he was content. Don't question it. It's none of anybody else's business except for the team involved how they want to run their operation.

And as far as what someone wants to do with their pin/property, again, mind your own business. If they aren't breaking a law they have every right to do whatever they want.

See you can back out and step aside.
Mike

and he made it clear already that he was not.

If I am not mistaken it may already be sold/ in the works as he had a few offers already.

If u all say so ...... most people on here buy pins to play /enjoy and even collect and dont really care about a 1-2k profit which really isnt much in the grand scheme of things in this hobby especially for a so called amazing super rare pin that they may never own again? I think it shows that many think it just isnt as good as they hoped /thought and want other better titles.. Its really to bad bc this is what drives prices up on everything .

Wrong thread for me to respond to this ( as this is a for sale thread) but when you said "they'll never grow " i just had to laugh . Game #2 from spooky is double the production of game # 1 and will be produced in about the same amount of time. Spooky has also moved into a much larger building . I guess I just have a completely different definition to the word "never" than you , that is why I laughed .

Direct quote from Ben Heck:

"I can't really speak to Chuck's decisions on Rob zombie, but I will say... If I ever do another game with Spooky, I'll just jack up the price a thousand bucks. I've already told Chuck that... I've said it in interviews. Cause, I'm like... "Hey, let's jack up the price and we'll split it. That's my decision to make."

He does say, what we all know, that pricing lower than what the market will actually support is a safety net that guarantees sales. Makes sense. But then he says:

"When AMH got down to about 10 units, I thought about buying one just to flip."

So Chuck has chimed in, here, and has said they limited to 300 because they've paid for a 2 year license and they know their manufacturing capacity is about 300 pins in two years. Ben Heck, in the same interview(above), says the same thing. That makes sense... And no one questions Chucks word on keeping it capped at 300. But, if the game is a hit... And you still have a waiting list of over 150 people... stating that you'll never make more eliminates any possibility of making more at a later date. What if Spooky does have its own WWE in 2018/19? A flop that results in a total manufacturing slow down. What then? How will Spooky feel if their games are selling on the secondary market for thousands more than they originally sold for? Hello Stern Vault Edition. thats when you re-buy the liscense for a year and satisfy your customers while supporting your own business.

How many RZ's are out of the factory? 50? And we're already seeing 8 for sale on the secondary market. shows that the game was underpriced... Because it was cheap enough that Flippers were willing to get on the list, pay the money, and look to sell... And you still have over 150 on a list saying they want a shot at buying. As Ben points out, the RZ fan club didn't even know about the pin before it was sold out. Seems like a market/money making opportunity missed.

Again, no slight to the sellers. I'm all for pinball sellers asking for anything they see fit when it comes to selling a game they rightfully own. Same goes for flippers...and buyers. It's how it works. As someone pointed out above, people are allowed to do whatever they want with their own pin/property.

Everyone that hates Sterns LE model is seeing exactly why the company makes them... Artificial demand is created...and then they can manufacture until they are blue in the face to meet market demand on their terms and to their benefit, even if it means re-buying a liscense at a later date.

Look. This is purely discussion...not meant to be pot stirring or slinging disrespect at spooky. And it's certainly not pointing fingers at anyone looking to sell their RZ...all of those folks are 100% in the right to price and sell their pin for whatever they want. It is interesting to see how two different start-up pinball companies have attacked the market. And it will be very interesting to see how RZ ultimately plays out... I would be surprised if Spooky continues to hard cap production numbers with their 4th game. But we shall see.

yeah, perhaps the use of the word never is poor...you're right.

I'd argue that charlie should take note of the flippers and put them on a end of the line list for future titles. Anyone who flips can still get one, but they won't be first in line and ahead of 150 other willing people.

There might be better ways for him to use his time. I don't think many businesses are going to cater to the price police.

Yes, that's just ridiculous and discriminatory... flippers are people too!

pretty sure there is already no cap on their game #3. What are you waiting for? Go buy one now.

You obviously dont get it. ANY business in a collectible market WANTs a healthy secondary market. They also want to ensure the speculators are still interested but figure out the right edition size and cost where they maximize profit. Keep in mind that theme, gameplay, and code also play into this very complicated equation. Pretty sure Spooky is doing just fine without newly imposed rules by you or others.

They obviously hit the sweet spot with RZ; full sell out, speculators fueling some of that sell out, people willing to pay more on secondary market, safety net of limited edition, let the speculators take the risk on the back end. This demand allows them to continue to organically grow.

I would say if they are smart then they will stay on the side of chuck and not Ben.
Ben is a greedy man (I know him and am friends with him; he wants to get paid and I admire his desire to do so) but Ben is also a subcontractor and that is the flexibility of that role. Chuck is wisely growing a business with great customer service and appeal to the collector market. He appears smart enough to not push too hard but rather push just right. Re doubled production on a hot title, raised the price, and still maintained speculator demand. It is a complex equation, but thus far a huge success. Greed or desire to exclude part of your buying population (especially one that brings hype to your product) is often recipe for bad news in collectible limited editions.

No thank you. Besides, dominos is a weird machine... there's no cap, yes, but it's also not a game made with traditional location/collector market in mind. You know that...

We are going to have to disagree to disagree, in general. There's no way you're going to convince me that a company revels in under selling its market, leaving money on the table so collectors have meat on the bone to immediately flip for a decent percentage profit. RZ... Waiting list of unmet buyers and speculators comfortable in dumping money and trying to take advantage of demand is hardly an indication of a sweet spot being found.

sure it is... They sold out the game and ramped up (doubled) the edition size to double of the last game and what they can comfortabley make. Perception of the community will continue to be that Spooky games are hot when limited. Maybe that means the next one is 500 games and $500 price increase and they still sell out. For the long game on a collectible market you always want to stay below the demand threshold and speculators. This means a long term healthy business model (especially as you grow to a more stable place)

Spooky continues to do great things! Why screw with something that is so great?

I don't get this.

Why would anyone do this?

It's like going up to a stranger and saying, 'here, have a $1000 on me, my present to you' !

And if it goes to someone else and they flip it, you would feel even worse…..

true, but not an indicator of a sweet spot. They haven't found the price sweet spot... And as a manufacturer, there never should be a scenario where you take away your ability to earn from or serve your customer base. This is not a charity business. Even if all RZ's are made, sold, and the secondary market is active $500-750 above NIB price, that's $150 to 225K that the manufacturer could have captured and applied to better future design, licenses, hiring, etc.

If RZ is super popular and selling high on the secondary market, but rarely ( a la Iron Man Pro), Spooky has completely erased its ability to recapture the license and manufacturer to a customer base. Manufacturers always need to be manufacturing. That's how they stay in business. Spooky' current IM VE is this dominos pin.... Guaranteed manufactured sales for a specific need. It's ashame that RZ will never be a card in their pocket for a rainy day.... And I suspect that game 4, which will likely have a target of the operator/collector world... Will likely have a different approach.

chicken - egg scenario.

We are not going to agree, but I do have a quiestion.

Are you getting a RZ first hand? on secondary? neither? both?

Neither. I played it at Allentown, game seems fine... Very hard to get a feel for a game at an event like that. Would like to have some opportunity to play it again, but I'm not a buyer on the theme. Honestly, if I had been able to buy in, I would have passed. Not out of some moral obligation... Just would rather have my money wrapped up into something I could have and play now.

You?

They have found the sweet spot. They sold out easily, and let the speculators worry about the "high end" aftermarket.

As you can see, with all of these RZs languishing on pinside, and the prices continuing to drop, they got it exactly right. If they get greedy and jack up the price, the scalpers will sit the next round out and they won't sell out their run. Perception is EVERYTHING on Pinside, and if they suddenly have an abundance of unsold games sitting in their factory next time around, it'll just make their product less desirable.

You can see all the half-empty stadiums in the current GNR tour for an example of pricing yourself too high and scaring away the scalpers.

.

so safe to say that some of your opinion is based on your desire to hopefully play it in a better setting, possibly decide you like it, and preference to then buy the non-existant vault edition for original price?

I can totally understand that some people will forever be miffed by the "buy it now" or possibly never get one/miss out/have to pay more on the secondary market issue. (esp when they see others that are feeling out the secondary market and were able to get in on first run)

It is a pretty cool game once you get the opportunity to play in in a setting where you can hear and learn the game.

If you ever make it to Madison, then stop on over at AltBrew and you can play it there in a good setting. I can swing out and give you a quick tutorial and the rules are slightly confusing currently until you get a few games on it. Then it gets to be way more fun and quickly. Veyr challenging game but that si a good thing in my book.

No. Not safe to say that... Safe to say that this is a game that I will never buy. I'm not a fan of RZ, his imagery, or his music. That's not to say Spooky did a bad job with the total package. Far from it...only to say that the theme isn't my cup of tea.

It's tough to predict pricing and demand. Stern has proven that varies widely game by game, particularly in the LE where they've overestimated the market more often than not. It's better for Spooky to leave some unmet market demand rather than overproduce and overprice their games.

Thought this was a for sale thread