TL;DR: I tell my story of how I bought a JM at a premium price, put a lot of money into it, and don't expect to sell at a premium price. As for this WCS, It's still a B-level game at about $4000+ premium price.

My two wooden nickels:

I purchased a JM for a premium price. For the price and the description I was given, I thought it would be a nearly plug and play machine.

1. It gets here with loose nuts, bolts, screws, and fuses in the cabinet bouncing all around.
2. Ground prong cut off the plug.
3. Both ramps have cracks in them where the ball zooms around the loops, and I think the Cliffys will just barely cover them once they come in (prolly looking at a 3 month backlog waiting on those).
4. Bulbs burnt out underneath the PF.
5. Hand has some "skips and stutters".
6. Legs have surface rust all over them (insides of the legs), and the stabilizers are so rusted I almost had to get vice grips outo just to properly level the machine.
7. U20 chip just happens to go bad the very first weekend it is home.
8. Slingshot switches so out of the adjustment the right slingshot nearly goes into "machine gun" mode.
9. Spinner needs new decals.
10. Diverter in the back has scratched the PF due to the nyliner being worn down.
11. Translite damage over the main title of the game.
12. High voltage switch was out of adjustment so game was stuck in constant "coin door open" mode even with it fully shut.
13. Rear left leg bracket was stripped.

And that's just what I found before I left for my assignment here at Point Mugu Naval Air Station. Before I left, I had already installed a new/used translite, swapped out U20, properly adjusted the slingshot switches, done a full LED conversion, installed a new power plug, used bicycle chain grease to lube the Y-rod of the hand - minimizing the skips and stutters, swapped out the rear left leg bracket, and adjusted the high voltage switch. I got the game to where it was at least playable and 100% functional so my family can enjoy it while I am away.

That was a full solid weekend of work and effort. I haven't even got into shop jobs, quickly adding the Cliffys when they come in, taking apart the diverter and putting new parts on it so it stops gouging the playfield, swapping all 4 legs with new ones plus all new hardware for each, or rebuilding the hand when it's time.

I think I have about $200-$300 in parts waiting for me when I get home, and I know I have more to order as I sit here in my hotel room.

I paid a premium price for this game, and look at all the work I am putting into it. Adding a ColorDMD down the road, with all the things I have already mentioned above, do I think I am going to get all my money back in parts, time, and effort? Should I try to sell my JM for $4000+ ?

Absolutely not. You know why? This is a hobby. It's not stocks and bonds. It's not Vegas. It's not a 401K where I expect to yield profit over time.

It's a HOBBY, and the last thing I expect to happen in a hobby is for me to recoup everything I invested into this game. I expect to lose money, pass a nice game onto someone else, and not look in the rear-view mirror about it. It's that simple.

Now, addressing the OP: your game looks the part. When you start talking this level of money, you have two things working against you:

1. Ramps are not brand spanking new.
2. PF has minimal defects (read: it's not a new PF).

Without those two, unless you have someone approach you that wants a WCS this decked out and nice, it is staying in your collection. Pretty simple.

This and that T2 for like $7000 are both examples of games where some incredible love and effort were poured in, and at the end of the day, they are both still B-level games - no matter how much money is thrown into them - just like my JM.

Sounds to me like you overpaid for a players JM. Thus, wouldn’t surprise me that you’re ok losing money on it when you get rid of it.

The fact is, some of us like money enough to try not and lose it when possible. Sure it’s a hobby but if I’m buying a machine with 1200 dollars worth of chrome and brass alone, I expect to pay for it. I’m not the guy who says “Well WCS is a 3k game so all the money you’ve put into it is a wash”. You guys arent really like that are you? Hoping it’s just the forum talking haha.

This ad seems pretty clear cut to me. If you want a wcs redone with nice shit and don’t want to do the labor yourself this is the machine for you. If you want a players WCS without nice shit or to add stuff later on your own dime and time, wait for a 3k one to pop up, they seem to be easily had.

You should expect to lose 50% or more on any parts and 100% on labor for any restore. Expecting to get your time and money back out is a fools errand.

You're right.

I have a 63 Corvette coupe with automatic transmission and the 327/300. The car has around 50K original miles and is cosmetically and mechanically close to perfect. I am in the car for around 85K, but it's only worth around 50K on days when Jupiter aligns with Mars.

I poured a lot of money into the car because my wife loved it and didn't want to be bothered with a manual transmission. However, I knew we would never get back the money we put into the car to make it so special.

I have all of the receipts showing what we have into the car, but I would be taking close to a 50% hit should we decide to sell today because the value is what someone is willing to pay, regardless of what all of my receipts show.

If anyone would like to sell me their ColorDMDs and chrome/brass for 50% or more please let me know, I’ve got cash.

Zach you know I'm a big fan of yours and love the show/podcast and I know this is your boy, but you can't honestly tell me that when you see people with their restored games with a color dmd and full chrome/brass that is overpriced you don't look at it and say thats crazy. I know you are sticking up for your guy, but you have to kind of admit that this is priced pretty high. Like I said in a previous post, I sold mine for 4k a month ago and it was as fresh as NIB as you could get for one, but even if I threw chrome and a color dmd on it I don't think it would fetch that price. Again Zach no hard feeling this isn't me taking a shot at you at all, it's just my worthless opinion

Heck yeah man it’s pinball discussion and a good one for a future episode. I am biased he’s a best friend but I just spent a lot of money on a Fathom that has been restored and I happily paid more than one that was just a good example. I don’t mind paying extra for something nicer than most and when I don’t have to do any work to it

There are two things I love about pinball - pinside and SDTM. I even listened to an old SDTM video with the OP talking about his collection. Seems like a really nice guy. People that know me well understand I'm a straight shooter and I also sell games that don't click. I've made money on some, lost money on many (see my TnA ad), etc. B/c the OP is asking for opinions per his own feedback - well here is mine.

6500 for this is insane. I almost think the OP knows this too. I love Zach but this argument of paying someone else to do it for you - well you can find a super nice WCS for 4k and maybe tweak a few things and be at 5k MOST............6.5k? whaaaaaaat. Zach - not the pony to back on this one.

This isn't a knock or dig on the OP - I think he knows this is the case. I've always said - market proves out in the end so this will all be figured out but OP is asking for input so here is mine (right or wrong - IMO).

I don't give the farm away like I used to. I honestly used to sell games with the ColorDMD thrown in because that's what I felt was right - helping others getting a good first or second game when they are new to the pinball world. Nowadays, I pull my ColorDMDs when I sell a game because "fuck that". Got tired of giving all my money and efforts away while others look to recoup every last dime down to a "new start button" or "a new thermistor in the power box".

As for the "players JM" part, I'll just say I was told one thing and got another. Now that NIB Pro prices are approaching the $6K mark, I buy only what I want with the old B/W games and hang onto them as prices for old games are getting absolutely silly.

My point is that sometimes we all put in a lot of love into these games, and when you talk nearly $7000, Stern Premium model level pricing, for a B-rated title - good luck getting all the blood out of the stone. Sometimes, you have to be ready to cut your losses to let go of a game, or you have to be ready to keep it if it doesn't sell. OP has made it exceptionally clear he is cool with the latter, so let's see where the cards fall on this one.

Totally respect your position on this. Rumor has it they're in the works and coming down the pipe soon - as of last month per Larry's post a mere 14 days ago:

Of course, they were planned to be one of the next 4 projects back in 2015, so I wouldn't get my hopes up until ramps go out in boxes with tracking numbers on them...

yeah but who did the work?

We know we are all crazy right?! Weird thing to debate but we all love this hobby. Haha good discussion and maybe my angle just shines light on my laziness of not wanting to do all the work while still wanting something as nice as is available on the market.

If somebody threw up a Shadow with restored cab, chrome, colordmd, teardown, etc my silly ass would stop in my tracks and consider it for a moment.

I hear you on the cost. I did a restore to a MP and ended up sinking a TON of money real fast and before I knew it, I was in a losing position. It's made me think twice about restoring. BUMP

People get WAY too upset about other people setting their pins at a high price. Who cares! Really??!!?? Who cares! If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. Man, Pinside can be so damn ruthless. We all know, a pin is worth what someone will pay. Bottomline. If someone wants to put a high price on a pin, who cares! If it doesn’t sell, then the price will likely be lowered. Life is short. Policing pin prices on Pinside is a lonely, negative, and useless time waster. Focus on something positive. Damn. Have a great day everyone.

Price policing, friend bumping, stating the obvious bumping....dang just commenting bumping... get rid of it all and just list ADs in the “Market Section “ of Pinside.

This way no ones feelings get hurt and we all get bored not being able to read, gripe & comment!

Well that doesn’t sound like my fun.

There's 'paying extra' and then there's this example. It really is unrealistic. Maybe it gets sold and proves me wrong.

This thread has officially been shitted...

That said, I just finished a full shop out on a WCS that I picked up last week from the original owner who bought it nib in 1996. The gentlemen was an enthusiast, but never really cared about the machine, so it had admittedly never been cleaned or waxed during it's stay with him.

I did a full led upgrade, re-sleeved every coil, fully tore down the upper play field and cleaned/polished/waxed/re-rubbered everything, rebuilt the flipper mechs, and cleaned up the under side. With all the ramps and gizmos everywhere, this one took some time. It came out really nice. Pf is a solid 9 (seriously) and the cab is perfect and unfaded. I'm not sure I would let it go for $3,500, but if someone offered me $4,500, it'd be gone! It's all relative I guess.

GLWS op.

No one has referenced the Baywatch ad yet?? Did I miss it? Ok here it goes...

That looks imamaculate!!

Stop That!

ill go ahead and say it.....Baywatch was a much better deal !

I'm exactly the same way. I don't mind paying someone to get a brand new playfield and install it for me, to re-stencil a cabinet, to take all the boards out and service them for me, etc. I don't have either the know how or the time to do it myself so I'm fine with paying someone, just like paying for any other service or convenience.

And yet somehow that makes me a "sucker". Apparently playing for someone's work and labor makes people a sucker, because I'm apparently suppose to sacrifice my days, weekends or whatever trying to figure out how to do this all myself. This is what I just don't understand, and this comes up on these for sale posts all the damn time here. Why? The people that keep calling us suckers, do you never pay anyone for anything ever? Do you never pay for labor? Do you have legions of slaves working for you for free?

That's why I asked someone to explain why I am a sucker for paying someone else's time, skill and labor to do a job for me. I'm not trying to be an ornery ass, I really truly and honestly just don't get it, why this keeps coming up again and again and again here in for sale posts.

You don't sound like a sucker, just too lazy to learn.

Nah, I think you mixed that up with a BSD.

I think I may be able to shed light on this. Not saying this is correct, or that this perception is justified. I am looking at it objectively, and this is just my theory/opinion:

pre-2012, Pinside did not have such a large # of drama/needless threads, and it felt like there was a lot more "do it yourself" mentality. Pinball, in the short 6.5 years I've been in it, has/had a very strong reputation for being a "tinker's hobby" - engineer mindsets run abound because - let's face it, without people who like to tinker or take things apart, repair it and put it back together - we would not have reproduction parts or upgrades/mods that are actually worth their salt (cliffys, ColorDMD, CFTBL tail light mod, anything MikeD makes, etc.), and this hobby would have died a slow death.

Come 2012+, the amount of new people that jumped in - me included on that after "watching from the sidelines" - was absolutely insane. Pinball Arcade easily blew the doors off with exposure to this hobby, and this hobby is very retro even with the modern titles being made today. Emulation cannot replicate the feeling of hitting the flipper buttons and manipulating the cabinet. This is a very physical hobby that no cell phone app can replicate - period. Not going to happen, and some people are hungry for that. People are burned out with apps on their phone that do everything short of picking their nose for them. They want something visceral, and this is one of the VERY few entertainment devices - short of virtual reality - that actually implies more than pushing buttons on a controller.

So we have a massive influx of people jump into the hobby, and I think there is a perception that there are a solid number of people coming in with "plenty of dollars and no sense" - in other words - they can write checks with more money in their account than a cop has ink in his pen, but if a single bulb goes out, they don't even know how to take the glass of the game to change the bulb. And I think, just speculating here, that a lot of engineer types that are used to trouble-shooting, trying to learn on their own or with the help of others, putting the hard time in to get the right tools, learning how to use them, and properly diagnose a machine both mechanically and electrically - I think some of them feel a bit disrespected. I think some people that may have had no choice but to become a DIY'er feel like their hobby is being "culturally appropriated" - in other words - people with fat wallets are coming in buying games left and right, but have to hire help to put the legs on their new $8K+ toy.

Am I one of those tinkers that feel that way? I think I used to be. I won't deny: I was frustrated seeing people throw insane money at games/repair work and not know how to work on them, and I think that was due to jealousy that I was not "that well off" financially. I got over it, and I moved on from that mindset.

What I like to do if the person has the time and patience for it, is to teach/mentor/show them the ropes and empower them to shed the mystery on how a pinball machine works and give them the knowledge to service it themselves - for free - because to me, the camaraderie and company of this hobby is far more valuable to me than buying and playing these games.

I think people that label others as "suckers" just want to see others try first before throwing their hands up in the air and giving up before even grabbing a DMM or a screwdriver and trying to fix it themselves first.

There are more theories I have, but I'll keep it at that to avoid the appearance of "going on a rant."

In my personal opinion: do what you want. It's your money.

I tend to say out of these price policing threads, but I think NPO is on to something that's bigger than this thread. I've mentioned countless times where the generality of Pinside prices causes these types of issues. I tend to equate pinball machines to cars (as most do) and a lot of similarities arise:

1. Book value of cars changes on make/model and condition. Pinside keeps an "average" price that doesn't factor heavily routed vs. HUO / CQ models. This is partly due to the lack of archived details about each game. Simple metrics on "restored" or "players" do not give enough depth to each listing. I understand why they did it, but the system could use an update.

2. Different people are looking for different things. Do I want a $3,000 Paragon? No. Would I buy a junky $300 Paragon? Absolutely. Does that make the $3,000 overpriced? Not necessarily but it's just not what I'm looking for.

3. Flippers / Light shop vs. Restorers is a very different story. Restorers (like HEP) demand a premium for labor. Flippers don't demand the same premium for labor. In my opinion, if you are trying to recoup labor cost out of restoring pinball machines, Pinside is going to be a tough crowd. This is why many restorers I know have a legitimate customer base (of non-enthusiasts) that they sell machines to regularly.

I would like to carry some of these ideas off to another thread if folks are interested to see if there is a way to "address" some of these issues. I don't think it will magically make the price police disappear, but it would be interesting to see what could be done to curb some of this behavior to better inform potential sellers and buyers alike.

“Excuse me, sir. We have had numerous complaints called in to dispatch about this thread. This is your final warning. If we get called out here again, we’ll be forced to give you a ticket. So, get with it!”

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There may be some machines that you shouldn't put that much work into if you really wish to recoup any of your labor costs.

I would be very interested in such a thread. I think Pinside has had a boiling point that has been reached numerous times, and I sometimes subjectively feel almost an "us vs them" mentality on a lot of areas of this community, and I'd be very interested to explore that in a separate thread where constructive criticism and unorthodox thinking can transpire, and no getting emotional or "taking my ball and going home because I don't like what I am hearing" behavior.

Free bump for the OP.

Yeah, I agree with the other repsonse to this...

You should really think about finding a buyer first, then do the work... especially if you’re looking to get paid for your time.

I guess it all depends on why you are restoring. If your motive to restore is to make money, I would be selective in the title chosen. I personally restore my games so I have a machine that looks and plays great. I also do not have funds to drop on high priced or NIB games, so I take what is available and restore it. Living in Alaska adds it's own challenges as well due to availablility. I am finishing a full resto on a Diner now and I would have to sell it for 3500 to 4000 to justify it in my head. That is the price I would let go of it for, regardless of Pinside stated value. I also do not care what someone else values it at, but I also may not find a buyer. So I restore games for my personal satisfaction and would keep the game in storage before I sold it for less than what is in it. If people do not like it, they can buy their own game and restore it themselves. Don't expect me to sell it for 2k because it is what you want me to sell it at.

Pretty sure Pinball Spare Parts Australia has ramps although you'll need to get the decals separate. Add in the cost of shipping ramps from Australia and this thing could hit 8K by Xmas!