Errr... given the theme you missed out by failing to say “take the plunge!”

I agree, I don’t like how they look. Unnatural

I'm normally not one to pile-on in these situations, but there is a huge Red Flag safety concern in that machine. There are a couple power supplies in there for mods (I assume RGB lighting), and I take issue with how they are wired and connected. Fix it before it causes a fire.

WWPower (resized).jpg

Thanks for the support guys.

I have reached out to this very seller in the past and at that time he claimed ignorance and would not do it again.
Obviously that’s not the case now.

If the integrity is this low just trying to sell the game I would hate to see the actual quality of the work.

I have way better things to do than to try to police three letters in regards to pinball on the internet.
The best hope I have is by keeping up my own standards ,community interaction and signature style it polices itself.
Clearly that is working.

There should be a record of multiple violations for blatantly lying and/or misrepresenting in a FS ad. This guy has the upvote/approval rating of an unflushed toilet. Sounds like your name will be tied to his sales again in the future.

This guy would have a much better chance of scamming someone with his pins if he didn’t make a forum topic about it to get trashed, BIG MISTAKE

First thing I always think of.

Personally, if this sort of bling turns someone's crank I don't mind. As I get older, I've come to realize that joy comes in different forms for different people and I've tried to embrace that rather than being critical because something isn't to my taste.

Whether this is a fair price -- the market will decide. Whether the work is of the quality claimed -- who knows, the photos are inadequate. The over-tightened bolts on the RadCals are not a good sign. Powercoat on the door hinge has also rubbed off.

PM sent

After seeing one red flag, I started looking closer. These alligator clips on coil lugs are probably running to the shaker motor or other lighting mods. For a high vibration location, at these voltages, under a playfield...... break out the damn soldering iron.

Hell, and I'm a guy that sells mods that use alligator clips (But I do highly recommend soldering).

-Hans

WWclips (resized).jpg

At this price, of course White Water owners are cheering this on, regardless of looks.

Uhhhh no; we're dying inside looking at this heap of shit.

Yeah dying inside with fingers crossed at the same time.

Leland Gaunt is even unsure of this listing.

latest (resized).jpg

I think it looks nice enough. Haven’t been around long enough to really see more than one or two examples of a HEP. I wouldn’t buy this for 16k, but I also can’t think of much in this world that I would feel comfortable spending 16k on.

Agreed 100%. With all of the business and reputation that Chris has he should absolutely register his trademark.

Why is it that these over the top modded games never have LED or GI OCD? Like if you're going to put this much into a game OCD boards should be a given, *especially* on Whitewater. But no, they always skip that and instead add pointless junk like redundant spot target stickers and powder coated coin boxes.

I know you guys are right about that but my time and money are just better spent providing the service.
This guy selling the game has it listed as HEP on Craigslist.
The world is full of crooks that try to deceive people from fake Rolex’s to imitation crab meat.
You have to be a smart shopper and do your homework.
It’s a shame that he values his own name and reputation so little that he doesn’t think it is good enough to sell the game on its own merits.
Anyone that knows me and my work knows I wouldn’t build anything that looks like that. Even by request I would refuse it.

losangeles.craigslist.org link

Because they're targeting new buyers with money who dont know any better, unfortunately.

I'm sure most folks who see thru the BS will know better, but all it takes is one person with deep pockets and no shits to give.

Chris, you are the best there is no doubt and you will continue to succeed from your reputation. Others whom are disingenuous will try and rip you off which means that you are the gold standard. It's a shame but true.

Where is the OP? Why isn't he chiming in on the discussion? It sounded like he is proud of his work.

He should have put this chrome kit he sold on it. Chrome looks amazing with a fresh blue cab

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/whitewater-pinball-chrome-dress-up-kit-

Holy F*** this game is hideous.

That apron won’t even fit WH2O another failure.

Agreed. The color of the trim is awful. Looks like Meconium.

Would you jump in water with a feeding frenzy? He’s smart to not comment.

As someone who restores games and finds huge inspiration in people like Chris, this misrepresentation comes across as an arrogant move? It would appear the seller is attempting to leverage the name of a highly recognized and respected “brand” in order to pull in a higher profit, whilst claiming the quality is of the same or better as a HEP?. What are the sellers motives here? I would be very curious to know.

However (edit) I would like to recognize that there clearly is a LOT of work into this game, and it does show.

It’s not a HEP. You will realize in enough time. Tons of people always claim “HEP” and lie. Chris’ work is on another level and when you see it you’ll know. It leaves junk like this in the dust.

This game is an example of guys throwing cosmetics at a restoration and hoping you ignore the real issues and poor quality. It’s kinda like adding tons of plastic with a fart cannon to your car and it still only puts out 90hp on the dyno. At least it LOOKS fast.

It appears they may have removed the HEP reference(s) in the listing. I just checked the CL link and it says it was updated 25 mins ago (presumably to change their choice of words?)...

Yes. The restoration itself was done well. There are a couple easy small quirks that can be fixed, but this website has a bad habit of thinking that requires $4,000 to be knocked off the price, even if the asking was only $6k or $8k

The direct HEP reference was removed from the pinside ad.

Originally the pinside ad specifically said "White Water HEP Restored".
It was later amended to say "White Water High End Restoration".
It currently reads "White Water Superb Restoration".

If the OP wants to advertise it as a "Superb Restoration by Dave Lucas", then I have no gripe at all in here other than the safety issues I pointed out earlier. It may not be a style that I personally like but at the same time a lot of effort was put into the machine. In the 2021 market bubble who's to say what a price should be on a machine that's been worked on to this extent.

Not even close to being the case. I will cringe if it sells for anywhere near the asking price. It’s a total disappointment and misrepresentation. There’s only a few people whose games I would pay that much money for; HEP, Bryan Kelly, Oracle, Mike D and a handful of private restorers.

Right. I think these type of games are in a class of their own where everything is over the top, chromed, powdered coated, moded, etc. You really cannot compare them to a typical game or even a traditional restored one. It would take a lot of money to get a game to this point whether you like it or not. Even if someone bought it for that much doubt it would affect prices of other games.

Is there a bunch of meth hidden in the game somewhere?

Geez everyone. As far as the negative comments on the powder coat color, everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, it is obvious he was trying to tie the color to the Whitewater logo on the sides of the cabinet which is a logical color combination that is complimentary (actually this same blue and similar gold where my Jr. High colors, used in professional sports franchises, and even in decorating and art). At least the choice makes sense, unlike many I see, even if not appealing/desirable by some.

Offer constructive criticism where appropriate, but I just don't see the value of puking on his trim color.

Im not sure you understand how the internet works. Constructive criticism isnt as fun.

I agree with you.

It would be ludicrous for this to sell at high dollar.

I'm glad you love the game enough to understand what is going on here. I love this game too but shitty example or not, people are asking high for this pin, or they may start to go even higher now. Been wanting one but if this monstrosity somehow sells, EVEN below the ridiculous asking price, then as a potential buyer for a different WH2O, I'm not real happy for this to go towards the average recorded price.

So, yeah, just joking about some current owners cheering it on. I would never want this piece of shit. Original is always king for me, but a even a crappy expensive WH20 still goes in the sold average if some fool decides to go after it.

Realistically I think around 11k seems reasonable?But there is nothing wrong with shooting high…

Once it gets past 15k seems logical to expect:

All harnesses cleaned, connectors inspected (replaced if needed), and loose odd wires reconciled,

Oro final boards inspected / rebuilt / beefed up.

All switches, springs, sockets, cleaned and or replaced. All solder joints inspected and in some cases new solder.

Ramps (as they are new) tested many times with hand tossing a ball - ensure seams don’t hang up the ball, also on WH20 the insanity falls can launch the ball out at the bottom on aftermarket ramps, heat gun treatment usually needed.

Chrome (powdercoat is much cheaper)

Led and maybe gi ocd

New playfield rails

Speakers and amp?

External power supply?

Now maybe the seller did all this? And if so these are strong points and should be added to the listing! But I’m just some dude

it’s white water it can’t burn.

This is NOT a HEP resto....more like a HEP-C resto....

I was looking at the Feedback

https://pinside.com/pinball/community/pinsiders/dasha126/feedback/2

It says 15 insiders left positive feedback and I do not see any negative feedback. I am fairly new to this forum and was more familiar with RGP. Just curious, if you had a bad experience, should this information be found in the Feedback section of the seller's profile?

Jeez, I did not even notice that, but I also did not even look at the pics.

Well, I'm never going to be one to tell people how to think, feel, or react but I would like to appeal to people's better nature at times. I also occasionally have sympathy for those who are getting kicked while they’re down, even if they brought some of it on themselves . . . geez, I'm getting soft in my old age!

Pinside dropped all negative feedback a few months back. Even erasing past neg feedbacks.
It was a thing, you missed it.

Chris I bought a collector quality game from

No they have to invite you to leave feedback. So if upset it is hard to leave feedback. I am pretty sure this is a game I trade to him along with cash for a “collector quality” cactus canyon earlier this year. It was not. Again I bought a playfield and white water rocks from but I would never do a game. Maybe his skills get better but it is not a superb or high end restore. It is a bedazller pin restore! Just colors and bright stuff.

Probably but not on purpose.

Apparently, those would belong to the seller.

Say what????

So feedback is basically meaningless now???

Yep, Robin caved and much to my disappointment Pinside has gone the way of eBay and Amazon. Everything‘s happy feely touchy good! No bad vibes. We don’t want to hurt anybody’s feelings here (or spread the word about unscrupulous sellers)