(Topic ID: 234740)

For sale: Twilight Zone X970000 PROTOTYPE


By fns9l

87 days ago



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13
#201 86 days ago

Dear Sir,

I wish to make the transaction for the purchase of your item. Please forward the Paypal details at your opportune convenience. I will most certainly expedite the payment for you and demonstrate the purchase verification. What is your telephone number? My agent is to coordinate rapid collection and shipping of the item so no effort to your person is needed.

Look forward to auspicious opportune dealing with you.

Sent from my Samsgun phone.

#202 86 days ago
Quoted from pinmister:

Ummmmm-no not even close-maybe a couple hundred-but not sure on thousands

I don't like to do this, but I will provide one example for comparison for a game which never made production, and what later occurred in pinball history.

The original Capcom prototype BBB (14 produced) average sales price $25K, and still is to this day.

IPB remakes sold for a little over $4K initially, which was higher than the standard game price tag of the time at $3250 for Stern games in 2004.

Today, the remake averages $15K.

Price difference is 5X from original to first days of remake. Today, the difference is still over $10K from original prototype.

The difference is not hundreds of dollars.

People MUST be able to differentiate between a prototype game which was produced/not produced, sample, and even early production. These categories are NOT the same thing, or have the same values.

No DW early production "wobble head" would be worth thousands of extra dollars, but one of TWO DW in the Bally cabinet with hologram/proto translite/artwork/lamps/and more is a different matter.

#203 86 days ago
Quoted from pinmister:

Just had a thought about all of those 'special collectors' out there that got bam-boozled into thinking Magic Girl was special and unique. Now they have a $20,000 paper weight starring at them everyday that they cannot sell on secondary market-that would be torture for me to have to stare at a paper weight all day.

They sold for 14K if I remember what the buyer of this one told me. There were no shortage of more "special collectors" when he decided to dump his paper weight. He could have easily cashed in for more, but just wanted his money back.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/some-interesting-craigslist-finds/page/13#post-4660474

#205 86 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

There is a whole side of this hobby that apparently many are oblivious to... but doesn't stop them from letting everyone know it....
Why don't some people checkout this thread... https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/show-off-your-rareprototype-pinball-stuff
And recognize most of that kind of stuff changes hands at unusual prices and generally NOT in the public view.
Not saying the 65k price is right.... but apparently many don't know there is an entirely different type of collector market out there too...

This. Just because someone else doesn’t see value in it, doesn’t mean there isn’t a market for this. There is absolutely a market of buyers who buy things simply because they are rare. This goes for more than just Pinball machines too. Cars, coins, lots of stuff has a market for the unique and rare where you pay more money for those. I myself have come close to buying such pins before, and the prices are certainly higher than even a great condition normal machine. But even then I don’t see this pin going anywhere close to $65k. I’d guess $20k tops, if that.

Quoted from pinmister:

People pay a premium for an unmolested barn find car because it is probably a rare car, with lower miles, etc. Again condition and rarity-but not a prototype.
People pay a premium for a handwriting from a famous person because they have a connection with that person or they want something to put on a shelf to show off to others.
It is different with pinball, if the OP invited me into his home and showed off his prototype TZ-I would shrug my shoulders and say "Meh" does not look to be in that good of condition, especially for being an HUO machine-Doh' I would offer him $7000 for a TZ in that shape-I guess I am only $58,000 short. Maybe I can do a go fund me for $58,000 to help a delusional collector buy a prototype TZ? I think the pinball community is way too small to consider the "history of pinball" as a tangible valuable asset.

If someone showed off their original Picasso I’d be like “meh”. But I’m not into rare works of art. That doesn’t mean it isn’t valuable or that there isn’t a market for it.

#206 86 days ago

Immensely disappointed. You guys are being WAY too easy on this tool.
Softside Sunday.

#207 86 days ago
Quoted from Gryszzz:

Immensely disappointed. You guys are being WAY too easy on this tool.
Softside Sunday.

No football.....Gryszzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!!!

#208 86 days ago

Back to watching golf and listening to SiriusXM.

#209 86 days ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

If someone showed off their original Picasso I’d be like “meh”. But I’m not into rare works of art. That doesn’t mean it isn’t valuable or that there isn’t a market for it

We buy things.jpg
#211 86 days ago

No

#212 86 days ago

Prototype clock. Hmmmm...

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#213 86 days ago

Was thinking the same thing!
Good call...

Quoted from tktlwyr:

Prototype clock. Hmmmm...
[quoted image]

#214 86 days ago

#215 86 days ago

Keep the 80 videos coming. I am having fun now. Even if someone bought this machine for 6k. To fix it up so it is a nice game again.
It will need both playfields replaced.

#216 86 days ago
Quoted from Schusler:

Reminds me of a pic I saw on here where a "collector" purchased a Gottlieb Krull (still wrapped on pallet) and was a *afraid* to play his investment

This is a reality that most people don't see. You would be surprised how many of these people are out there. The really rare and expensive games are non players.

#217 86 days ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

This is a reality that most people don't see. You would be surprised how many of these people are out there. The really rare and expensive games are non players.

There are people out there would buy NIB Stern it JJP high end games and don’t play them either.

#218 86 days ago

Many people erroneously believe that the white clock face, as shown in the flyer, indicates a prototype game. In actuality, 2000-3000 games were manufactured with the white clock face. While this is fraction of the production run for Twilight Zone, keep in mind that this number is more than the entire production run for recent games. The real “prototype” clock decal was installed on only two or three of the first prototypes. The decal was very simple, and had six colors in a ring on the face. The colors matched up with six different-colored lamp inserts on the playfield that eventually evolved into the Spiral Award inserts.

https://gameroomblog.com/features/twilight-zone-pinball-prototype-vs-production

So if this was prototype #1 shouldn’t it have a multi colored clock face?

#219 86 days ago

I get that people pay a good chunk of money to be exclusive. Just look at the griping from the Munsters LE. What I don't get is where this machine came from. How does one get a prototype machine and not know the history? Whoever had it originally must have known and even if they sold it on the cheap, you'd think they'd let the next buyer know. I guess we just stumbled into a very special episode of Antiques Roadshow.

#220 86 days ago
Quoted from Flipperfun:

There are people out there would buy NIB Stern it JJP high end games and don’t play them either

I have a friend that has a vast NIB collection. All still in their boxes. That's all he does now is buy boxed games. I do not identify with him on this at all as a pinball player and lover. It is just another investment for him.

18
#222 86 days ago

I actually did a prototype TZ about eight years ago.
I don’t remember too many really special things about it if there were it might be noted here
http://christopherhutchins.com/gallery/album240?page=1

That said I have done three King Kong’s and each and every one of those had differences between them.
Some more drastic than others. These were really cool considering how rare the game itself was and then noting the differences between the ones I had come through here.
#1
http://christopherhutchins.com/gallery/album29

#2

http://christopherhutchins.com/gallery/album275

#3
http://christopherhutchins.com/gallery/album541

Prototype status is neat and can justify a slight or moderate premium based on how different or desirable the inclusions or exclusions are but you have to be realistic when pricing one.
From my experience it isn’t a meaningless status nor is it grounds for a windfall.

89
#223 86 days ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

https://gameroomblog.com/features/twilight-zone-pinball-prototype-vs-production
So if this was prototype #1 shouldn’t it have a multi colored clock face?

There were two or three "first prototypes" made. Two for the programmers (Larry and myself), and I think there was one for the "tagged sample" which was used to verify the Bill of Materials and as a reference for Manufacturing.

There were another 12-15 prototypes made subsequently, and they would have had serial numbers applied before they left the building. They were used for such things as field testing, photo shoot, drop test, ship test, FCC test, ACME Expo, and display pieces for the two largest European distributors at the time. The serial number of my personal game is X970004.

I'm pretty sure that the first two/three did not get serial numbers until they were sold to employees. The game I programmed on was purchased in December 1993, and had the serial number S2720037692, according to the receipt. Beats me what that number means. Those games have the 6-color ring on the clock face. I keep kicking myself for not taking a photograph of it.

As far as I know, that game is still sitting in the basement where I delivered and set it up just before Christmas as a surprise from Santa. It was a gifted it to thank someone who did some work for me.

--Ted

Edited to add: I believe those first 2-3 games had the Clock Millions target added after being first wired. I remember Pat standing next to one of the games as he hand-drilled the holes for the target and insert.

#224 86 days ago

$65k is crazy but it shouldn’t be surprising that someone would pay $15-25k for the 1st prototype of TZ when 100+ collectors paid this much for versions of BM66 and Beatles with no distinctive value.

#225 86 days ago
Quoted from check_switch_26:

There were two or three "first prototypes" made. Two for the programmers (Larry and myself), and I think there was one for the "tagged sample" which was used to verify the Bill of Materials and as a reference for Manufacturing.
There were another 12-15 prototypes made subsequently, and they would have had serial numbers applied before they left the building. They were used for such things as field testing, photo shoot, drop test, ship test, FCC test, ACME Expo, and display pieces for the two largest European distributors at the time. The serial number of my personal game is X970004.
I'm pretty sure that the first two/three did not get serial numbers until they were sold to employees. The game I programmed on was purchased in December 1993, and had the serial number S2720037692, according to the receipt. Beats me what that number means. Those games have the 6-color ring on the clock face. I keep kicking myself for not taking a photograph of it.
As far as I know, that game is still sitting in the basement where I delivered and set it up just before Christmas as a surprise from Santa. It was a gifted it to thank someone who did some work for me.
--Ted
Edited to add: I believe those first 2-3 games had the Clock Millions target added after being first wired. I remember Pat standing next to one of the games as he hand-drilled the holes for the target and insert.

Thanks for sharing! It’s cool to hear a piece of history.

#226 86 days ago

See these threads are a gas.... They make Pinside special and fun to be a part of....

#227 86 days ago

It would be a bargain if only it was shopped out

#229 86 days ago

This would make a good This or That SDTM video. hollywoodbone zmeny, for $65,000 would you rather have a prototype Twlight Zone or a Supreme pin? Which is more valuable? Does a high price equal more fun?

#230 86 days ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

I don't like to do this, but I will provide one example for comparison for a game which never made production, and what later occurred in pinball history.
The original Capcom prototype BBB (14 produced) average sales price $25K, and still is to this day.
IPB remakes sold for a little over $4K initially, which was higher than the standard game price tag of the time at $3250 for Stern games in 2004.
Today, the remake averages $15K.
Price difference is 5X from original to first days of remake. Today, the difference is still over $10K from original prototype.
The difference is not hundreds of dollars.
People MUST be able to differentiate between a prototype game which was produced/not produced, sample, and even early production. These categories are NOT the same thing, or have the same values.
No DW early production "wobble head" would be worth thousands of extra dollars, but one of TWO DW in the Bally cabinet with hologram/proto translite/artwork/lamps/and more is a different matter.

Comparing to TZ that had 15,000+ run and BBB that had 14 produced and than a remake of less than 200 is comparing apples to oranges. I understand but what you are saying but a $65,000 TZ of any kind is clearly over priced IMHO. If someone wants to pay it, however, good for the seller.

#231 86 days ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

No DW early production "wobble head" would be worth thousands of extra dollars, but one of TWO DW in the Bally cabinet with hologram/proto translite/artwork/lamps/and more is a different matter.

Having gotten rid of a sample dw with the wobble head recently, the price difference is in the hundreds. Even then it took the right buyer. Do agree with all you are saying though.

24
#232 86 days ago

With a price like this, it's well outside the Price Police's jurisdiction...

PINSIDE SWAT.JPG

#233 86 days ago
#234 86 days ago

Key letters in this for sale ad....

OBO

#235 86 days ago

Wot? Not yet sold?

#236 86 days ago
Quoted from check_switch_26:

There were two or three "first prototypes" made. Two for the programmers (Larry and myself), and I think there was one for the "tagged sample" which was used to verify the Bill of Materials and as a reference for Manufacturing.
There were another 12-15 prototypes made subsequently, and they would have had serial numbers applied before they left the building. They were used for such things as field testing, photo shoot, drop test, ship test, FCC test, ACME Expo, and display pieces for the two largest European distributors at the time. The serial number of my personal game is X970004.
I'm pretty sure that the first two/three did not get serial numbers until they were sold to employees. The game I programmed on was purchased in December 1993, and had the serial number S2720037692, according to the receipt. Beats me what that number means. Those games have the 6-color ring on the clock face. I keep kicking myself for not taking a photograph of it.
As far as I know, that game is still sitting in the basement where I delivered and set it up just before Christmas as a surprise from Santa. It was a gifted it to thank someone who did some work for me.
--Ted
Edited to add: I believe those first 2-3 games had the Clock Millions target added after being first wired. I remember Pat standing next to one of the games as he hand-drilled the holes for the target and insert.

Ted,

I GREATLY APPRECIATE the first hand account. I have often wondered what is going on with the white clock vs the colored clocks. There are quite a few things on this machine that appear to be installed after the fact, there are many holes for posts that have been drilled, and redrilled. Several are even drilled through the artwork and then filled in again. Some of these holes are drilled crooked, and i habe found atleast one instance where two holes overlapped. A few of the bolted down features looked like they were "made to fit" with shims and chiseled out wood etc. I noticed some redboards very clearly marked with a name, that ends in H. Would that be the manufacturer of the redboards, or perhaps someone who worked with them? Also there is a faint dark ink stamping marked onto all of the redboards. I have seen some colored lights that have no socket or bored under them, some with and some without markings on or near the lights.

#237 86 days ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

TZ quiz questions for experts: Did the original Twilight Zone pinball prototypes have a starred or no-starred translite?

My sample had no stars April 5th 1993 build date, my other TZ made a month later had stars cut out.

LTG : )

#238 86 days ago
Quoted from pinmister:

Just had a thought about all of those 'special collectors' out there that got bam-boozled into thinking Magic Girl was special and unique. Now they have a $20,000 paper weight starring at them everyday that they cannot sell(or play ) on secondary market-that would be torture for me to have to stare at a paper weight all day.

The whales knew that you don't build scarcity and history out of the gate...

The hobby as you describe it is why MMr sold. That is the new money side of the hobby. There is far far far more out there than the guys who have every nib since X-men.

The sad thing is instead of just acknowledging there is more out there... people like you try to jam it down people's throats that it's dead, dying, or somehow off. I guess this is the same mindset that thinks pinside is the center of the pinball universe and podcasters are the real pulse of things....

#239 86 days ago

This joke is no longer funny.

#240 86 days ago

Blitz,

You had me at “No parking on the dance floor”. Epic!

#241 86 days ago
Quoted from fns9l:

Ted,
I GREATLY APPRECIATE the first hand account. I have often wondered what is going on with the white clock vs the colored clocks. There are quite a few things on this machine that appear to be installed after the fact, there are many holes for posts that have been drilled, and redrilled. Several are even drilled through the artwork and then filled in again. Some of these holes are drilled crooked, and i habe found atleast one instance where two holes overlapped. A few of the bolted down features looked like they were "made to fit" with shims and chiseled out wood etc. I noticed some redboards very clearly marked with a name, that ends in H. Would that be the manufacturer of the redboards, or perhaps someone who worked with them? Also there is a faint dark ink stamping marked onto all of the redboards. I have seen some colored lights that have no socket or bored under them, some with and some without markings on or near the lights.

Would be great if you can photograph these and share them. While not directly connected to the sale of your game, it will document a nice piece of pinball history for others to enjoy.

#242 86 days ago
Quoted from fns9l:

Ted,
I GREATLY APPRECIATE the first hand account. I have often wondered what is going on with the white clock vs the colored clocks. There are quite a few things on this machine that appear to be installed after the fact, there are many holes for posts that have been drilled, and redrilled. Several are even drilled through the artwork and then filled in again. Some of these holes are drilled crooked, and i habe found atleast one instance where two holes overlapped. A few of the bolted down features looked like they were "made to fit" with shims and chiseled out wood etc. I noticed some redboards very clearly marked with a name, that ends in H. Would that be the manufacturer of the redboards, or perhaps someone who worked with them? Also there is a faint dark ink stamping marked onto all of the redboards. I have seen some colored lights that have no socket or bored under them, some with and some without markings on or near the lights.

Just for future reference, if you're going to try and sell a pinball machine for with an asking price of $65K... claiming it was the first prototype, none of the information Ted supplied should be surprising or a shock to you. You should know your game's situation and the exact details of "the first" prototype inside and out and backwards and forwards.

You might want to change your sale ad's description.... because it's pretty obvious you don't have the "first" prototype in your possession.

#243 86 days ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

Just for future reference, if you're going to try and sell a pinball machine for with an asking price of $65K... claiming it was the first prototype, none of the information Ted supplied should be surprising or a shock to you. You should know your game's situation and the exact details of "the first" prototype inside and out and backwards and forwards.
You might want to change your sale ad's description.... because it's pretty obvious you don't have the "first" prototype in your possession.

Wouldn't the first prototypes be a whitewood anyways? I have never seen any company silkscreen an untested design before.

#244 86 days ago

Flynnibus, I think we can agree that there is certainly a market for rare collectibles that would include rare or highly unusual pinball machines. Those collectors, who may value a variety of rare objects, may very well pay much more than what we pinball collectors would pay. My guess is most of us here buy pins to play them, or restore and improve them, although not all of us. But many collectors of rare cars, Hollywood memorabilia or historical artifacts buy things not to use them or even necessarily to display them, but simply to possess and appreciate them for their rarity. A “first ever” of something can be a very valuable thing. And, who knows what the uber-rich do with their money? I certainly don’t. Maybe there is a secret society of “eyes wide shut” rich people who have beautiful naked women walk around rooms filled with pinball machine prototypes.

#245 86 days ago

Is the credit dot in the pics an error for the extra zero on the price?

#246 86 days ago

So, what is a realistic price?

$10000 ?

#247 86 days ago
Quoted from check_switch_26:

There were two or three "first prototypes" made. Two for the programmers (Larry and myself), and I think there was one for the "tagged sample" which was used to verify the Bill of Materials and as a reference for Manufacturing.
There were another 12-15 prototypes made subsequently, and they would have had serial numbers applied before they left the building. They were used for such things as field testing, photo shoot, drop test, ship test, FCC test, ACME Expo, and display pieces for the two largest European distributors at the time. The serial number of my personal game is X970004.
I'm pretty sure that the first two/three did not get serial numbers until they were sold to employees. The game I programmed on was purchased in December 1993, and had the serial number S2720037692, according to the receipt. Beats me what that number means. Those games have the 6-color ring on the clock face. I keep kicking myself for not taking a photograph of it.
As far as I know, that game is still sitting in the basement where I delivered and set it up just before Christmas as a surprise from Santa. It was a gifted it to thank someone who did some work for me.
--Ted
Edited to add: I believe those first 2-3 games had the Clock Millions target added after being first wired. I remember Pat standing next to one of the games as he hand-drilled the holes for the target and insert.

Ted,

I just took the glass off of my machine and did some more investigating. It occured to me when you mentioned the adding of the clock millions target, how I had noticed years ago the flasher for the clock millions looked "off". Unlike all of the other flashers on the play board, it is sunken in a rough hole that has a very large gap between the edge of the hole, and the plastic flasher housing. There is a piece of clear playfield sheeting over top of it, which forms an un even hump, with a small rectangular clear decal placed onto it, labelled "clock millions" in a font that does not match the rest of the light labels. This detail can be noticed in the following photographs.

As for the clock, I unscrewed the clear plastic front, and examined the face. It is gold printing on white appearing to be a thin piece of paper, glued to the back of a piece of clear plastic. The glue job is very uneven, with a large crease running through it, and many air bubbles. Behind this partition, visible through the clear housing are two very distinctive stacked Red Boards, which run the clock. I also noticed the sensors on the ramp nearby had been remounted in several different positions due to the amount of nearby empty holes drilled in the plastic.

IMG_20190127_144845685_BURST001 (resized).jpgIMG_20190127_144810939 (resized).jpgIMG_20190127_145248642 (resized).jpgIMG_20190127_143725203 (resized).jpgIMG_20190127_142921177 (resized).jpgIMG_20190127_143030237 (resized).jpgIMG_20190127_142103944 (resized).jpgIMG_20190127_142929743 (resized).jpgIMG_20190127_142921177 (resized).jpgIMG_20190127_142048405 (resized).jpgIMG_20190127_142009418 (resized).jpgIMG_20190127_141833637 (resized).jpgIMG_20190127_141801316 (resized).jpgIMG_20190127_141737308 (resized).jpgIMG_20190127_141404706 (resized).jpgIMG_20190127_141850131 (resized).jpgIMG_20190127_145240657_HDR (resized).jpg
#248 86 days ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

Comparing to TZ that had 15,000+ run and BBB that had 14 produced and than a remake of less than 200 is comparing apples to oranges. I understand but what you are saying but a $65,000 TZ of any kind is clearly over priced IMHO. If someone wants to pay it, however, good for the seller.

This particular discussion was not about whether prototype TZs should be valued at $65K, but an understanding of values based on production categories of games because people were openly discounting it actually existed at all. I don't dictate pricing.

I see you want something more closely knit in terms of production source and production run. No problem. I can provide that.

Mata Hari (Bally, 1977-78) is another example, this time from the "produced" versus "limited" or "nonproduced" category of games.

Mata Hari EM (170 units)
Mata Hari SS (16K+ units)

Mata Hari EM average value remains 4-5x of a solid state unit, when compared on equitable condition. I have witnessed it.

Some might say there are 170 "prototypes" of this game, but that is not really accurate. It is just a unique fully featured, working version of the same game, with different parts, and different operating system which is highly desirable to collectors.

My point is this concept is not an exaggeration, as it does happen, but depends on several factors.

10
#249 86 days ago
Quoted from Pinkitten:

Flynnibus, I think we can agree that there is certainly a market for rare collectibles that would include rare or highly unusual pinball machines. Those collectors, who may value a variety of rare objects, may very well pay much more than what we pinball collectors would pay. My guess is most of us here buy pins to play them, or restore and improve them, although not all of us. But many collectors of rare cars, Hollywood memorabilia or historical artifacts buy things not to use them or even necessarily to display them, but simply to tpossess and appreciate them for their rarity. A “first ever” of something can be a very valuable thing. And, who knows what the uber-rich do with their money? I certainly don’t. Maybe there is a secret society of “eyes wide shut” rich people who have beautiful naked women walk around rooms filled with pinball machine prototypes.

There are amazing collections out there... and as TBK mentioned there are major hoarder collections too. Most of the “new money” folks who have gotten into the hobby in the last 10-12 years don’t hang around those types... because they are into the hobby for different reasons and appreciate different things. One just has to imagine people saying the stuff written here in person and you can see how they wouldn’t be invited to see the “hidden” collections.

There is something to be said for respecting what you might not actually know... a trait lost on many it seems.

No one has suggested this example is worthy of 65k.. but there is a market for unique examples that has interesting and credible provenance. The cool thing is most of the 90s history still has the key players accessible to verify or validate things.

It’s too easy to fake stuff these days, so provenance and chain of history would be needed. But again, people don’t buy this kind of stuff from a pinside ad... they use it to find of something is out there.

#250 86 days ago

At $65,000 it would have to be a Pinball machine that could make me breakfast in bed and give me a happy ending every day.... Although maybe it does and that is why it is priced so high

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