Paragon
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I also have a HUO Paragon, but yours looks a tad cleaner. Gorgeous. Even tough my original boards worked fine, I believe I put the Altek boards in mine...
I totally agree the reproduction back glass for this title is awful. The repro PF is actually quite nice...I have a beauty, but will likely never install it (since the original PF is so sweet).
Will be interesting to see what it sells for. GLWTS.
Quoted from Classics_Master:That’s cool, yes there can’t be too many true HUO Paragons out there. Congrats! Post some pics of yours, would love to see it! What helped keep my game so nice as is that it spent nearly all its life in a basement with no windows, that’s where there is zero fade. I have yet to see an original Paragon with the reds as bold as this one. Plus doesn’t have many plays either.
Thanks for asking...I just snapped these. Since it's in the corner, I didn't move it (so the cabinet isn't in full view). I think you can likely see the original reds are still pretty bright. Mine has likely had many plays, but you wouldn't know it from the condition. I don't see any real insert wear, but there is some cupping (from the heat of the bulbs). The plastics were warped when I got it...I flattened them in the sun
A small red button was installed by the original owner to allow him to start a game without fiddling with the coin door/mech. There is no mylar installed in front of the slings! I thought the games shipped with mylar from the factory, but apparently not. I actually prefer no mylar (which can cause the ball to jump a bit). Even without the mylar, there is no sling wear I can see.
IMG_1649 (resized).jpegIMG_1652 (resized).jpegIMG_1655 (resized).jpegIMG_1658 (resized).jpegIMG_1660 (resized).jpegQuoted from Classics_Master:Wow that’s so cool! Looks so much like my game, that’s awesome man
Thanks...they do look very similar. I picked mine up 10 years ago...paid 2k for it and 1k for an NOS Paragon Playfield. Sold the Kruzman restored PF to a Pinsider - decided to stick with the original PF (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fs-nos-paragon-pf-restoredcleared-by-ron-kruzman-in-june-2013). When I purchased the pair, I really didn't know quite how beautiful the example was (since it was stored in a warehouse and needed to be shopped). At the time, I remember other collectors saying I paid too much for it I never have a problem paying up for quality...these pristine examples are rare beasts, indeed!
Quoted from Classics_Master:Well, theoretically, ALL game prices are ridiculous right now.
True for a lot of games, for sure...but not ALL. The crazy money is usually focused on a handful of titles...before the CGC remakes, AFM/MM/MB were the darlings of pinball. I had a HEP AFM, Keller MM, and original MB...all good games, but they all got old to me. Of the 3, AFM lasted the longest (8 years). Despite being a loved title restored by a beloved restorer (Chris Hutchins), I lost 3k when I sold it in 2018 (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-hep-attack-from-mars)! The most I've ever lost on a game, and I've had many.
Right after selling the HEP AFM, I purchased a TRON LE for $10,500. At the time, the price was considered quite high. It "sat" on Pinside for many months before I decided to buy it. Sold it 2 years later (at the height of COVID hysteria) and got full price soon after listing it. Here is the ad (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-tron-legacy-le-249)...notice the 28 "thumbs down" on my $21,000 listing price Considering it sold quickly for full price, if Pinside rating were smart/fair, all this thumb downs would flip to thumbs up PS: If you look at my TRON FS ad, you'll notice kklank busting my balls as well (so don't take it personally...some folks are perennial, virtual "Karens" when it comes to FS ads).
Back to beloved 80's games...the last 80's game I sold was Fathom (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-fathom-19). This game also sold very quickly for full price. Considering this sale is over 3.5 years old now, I imagine this example would easily sell for 10k today. This isn't necessarily proof that your pricing it right, but I think it's close. You and I admire the rare beauties/survivors from this era, but a lot of the money today gravitates toward the new Stern titles. God forbid Stern builds a game without ramps (like Beatles)...people freak out, saying it's old/cheap/etc
In any event, it's cool you haven't received any downvotes on your pricing...a good sign! Paragon is a stunning game, and we have 2 of the best examples for sure. Personally, I will never sell mine. It will be handed down to my kids when the time comes
Quoted from jibmums:Stunning example of the game. I have a Black Knight that's similar to this, was one of the Time Travel Warehouse batch of NIB Black Knights. No longer in the box when I found it though (and what a story that is), and I've never played it so as not to put any wear on the playfield.
You have a beautiful collection! Kind of surprised you would worry about wear on the PF (and avoid playing it). Most games (especially from that era) are pretty darn resilient and don't wear easily! I have a NIB LOTR that likely has 10-20k plays (was in a free play arcade for 1 month, been to shows, etc.) and still looks fresh/new. These games are incredibly over engineered for home use!
Quoted from Classics_Master:Great informative post here. It’s just so strange to me on game prices. I remember when the lower tier Williams games could be purchased for $1,500 or less all the time. Back in the day, (early 2000’s) I bought a WCS for $1000, Fish Tales for $1400, Shadow for $1500 and same price for a Who Dunnit. At that time, the very high end games were only Monster Bash, Addams Family Gold, MM, and attack from mars, all of which were still less than $4000 at that time. It just amazes me to see faded out Fish tales selling now at $6000+. Seems that Jack Bot is one of the few Williams DMD games that’s not selling for crazy money these days, and it’s still not cheap.
Looking back, there’s a lot of older 80’s games I’d sold that I’d pay dearly to get back. So the pricing today is well worth what it is for a game such as these Paragons that are just SO nice. As a collector, I would pay more for an original survivor than try and restore or scratch build a game. Only way I’d consider that is if the game just virtually doesn’t exist or very, very hard to find. Pretty much how Tim Arnold scratch built a TKO, I can see that, but if the game is out there and I was in the market for a survivor HUO 80’s game or say a new Stern at the same price, no question I’d buy the older game.
My pleasure...just sharing some of my pricing experience, which I know is unusual. Nevertheless, it's fun to look back at some of the transitions/decisions over the years. Pricing is an art, and I think I've learned a lot over the years and enjoy sharing it. Too often, these threads become a useless shit show...really glad this thread isn't turning out that way.
I'm with you on preferring original survivors over restorations...they might not look quite as sharp, but they almost always play better. I don't regret commissioning my HEP AFM restoration (or losing the $$), but don't think I'd ever commission another high-end restoration. My Centaur is a gorgeous restoration done by a hobbyist. My experience is hobbyist restorations can often be nicer than going to the pros. Not because they are more skilled, but because they are often doing it for themselves...taking extra time to dial-in the game (and go the extra mile). Mike Dallas is a wildly talented restorer - I was fortunate to own is TOTAN for years.
Quoted from flynnibus:Truth is… a beautiful survivor isn’t going to demand the top dollar when there are better restorations out now.
This hobby doesn’t put the value on originality like other antiques.
People want perfect looking and playing games… original isn’t the best path to that. Rarity of kind instead of rarity of the example’s condition is valued.
Maybe in another generation originality will be king… but we are in the resto-mod era for pinball
There are many collectors that value originality, though I agree they are likely the minority. Your implication that restorations play perfectly is a misnomer. Many, many restorations don't play great...I've owned a fair number. In almost all cases, the survivor plays better...again, just my experience.
More than survivor vs. restoration, 80's games don't get the love they use to. People hunting for them are also in the minority. Recent example: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-hep-medusa. This Medusa took quite awhile to sell and it was fairly priced - and it was restored by HEP!
Quoted from Classics_Master:I’ve had completely restored games, I didn’t like them. It’s hard to explain to some, but as a player, the restored games never played right to me.
When you commission a restoration by a professional, they don't typically play it much (for fear of disturbing the perfect aesthetics). It's also time consuming. I think the Pro restorers (and their customers) and typically more focused on aesthetics and less focused on dialing the game in. I've personally spent weeks/months dialing in restored games. When I was more of a newbie, I was horrified that you could pay so much for a game and not have it play perfectly! Just my experience. That's why I prefer hobbyist restored games...i.e. games that are done for themselves. If a finicky player/collector owns and restores a game for their own collection, the game will in most cases play perfectly.
Quoted from Classics_Master:If someone says “you could get a Godzilla Premium for that price”, that just confuses me, as I’d MUCH rather have this perfect original Paragon or equivalent condition fathom, Eight Ball Deluxe, Centaur, etc… than a new Stern.
The folks that grew up in the 70's/80's obviously have a fondness for these games. Many younger players today only want the latest/greatest tech. I don't really know why LCD's excite the newer players so much, but they do
Quoted from flynnibus:Plenty of survivors that played like crap too because they got no love in 40 years
I guess, but it's not as common in my experience. For an extreme ground up restoration, the risks of not nailing everything is much greater than a beautiful survivor not functioning properly in obscure ways. Sure, you might need to tweak/fix survivor parts, but the entire game hasn't been taken apart and put back together again.
Quoted from pinballdaddy:I would also install additional speakers in sound attenuation so when they play that game and it hits a replay it would rock the world..
Well, on Paragon that would be a waste...the sounds it emits are quite basic The year after Paragon was designed, the "Squawk and Talk" board was developed which added some speech (Xenon, Centaur, Fathom).
On the newer titles, a PinWoofer amp/speaker upgrade is awesome...especially on the rock and roll pins.
Paragon Porn for the day. One of the most beautiful PF's ever done...thanks Paul Faris!
Back in February 2015, put my name on the CPR pre-order list for a Paragon reproduction they were planning. Received this in August 2020. Definitely worth the wait...CPR took their time and got it right. The colors are accurate & the clearcoat is perfect. For now, it's just wall art in my office.
Quoted from Classics_Master:I understand what you’re saying, but if I sell it for $6500 and they’re going for double that say five years from now, you just feel really bad selling it too low, as it’s happened to all of us and me many times lately. I did a seminar at pinball expo on game prices in 2019 going up and even then sold a very nice Quicksilver for $4500, which sounds high, and I was happy getting that, but we all know now what a really nice quicksilver goes for today, nearly double that. Actually, that quicksilver was priced at near $8900, and people thought that was way too high, but that was actually right where it would be today. So I’m not trying to price to this Paragon too high, I’m just trying to price this super nice game for closer to what it will be worth down the road, and it still would be a super investment at my asking price, as I’m sure it will be worth we’ll over $10k.
Wow, you are over thinking this! Pricing to accommodate future appreciation? Makes no sense.
I've been at this for over 20 years and have a Paragon that looks this like yours (posted several times w/photos). The number of collectors seeking 80's games is limited. Most of the new/big money is chasing more modern games.
It's interesting, I've sold a lot of games over the years and I don't regret any of the sales (or prices). Again, this idea that you have a crystal ball is irrational. Find the game a good home and get a fair price for your game! I personally get a lot of satisfaction selling to other collectors that appreciate my games - it's not all about the buck. It's a hobby for me, not a business.
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