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3 weeks later
A "HEP" game is an interesting thing to me. I simply do not buy into the "better than new" philosophy. As a collector (of anything for that matter) the closest in condition to the original manufacturer's product the better. Thus, there is no condition better than the way the game came from the manufacturer. To me, an HUO all original game is worth more than a HEP restore. Now, I realize some older BW games are nearly impossible to find in mint, all original condition, but they should still be valued higher than a restore IMO.
Sooo ... what would the value of an HUO, all original, and close to mint Scared Stiff be worth?
Quoted from metallik:There is no condition more *original* than the way the game came from the manufacturer. However, they can certainly be put together better. Pinball manufacturers work quickly to ship product and keep the line rolling, and they make mistakes. Just look at the MM remakes and their misplaced slingshot mechs. It is unlikely that a game would ever ship off the line with every single mechanism assembled and adjusted perfectly.
Minor adjustments are one thing. That's silly to stretch my point that far. My point was simply there is no substitution for all original parts in mint condition. HEP may very well do things or add modern technology that make a game more reliable (I've never heard HEP ever actually make this claim?) but that would never increase the value of a game above an all original, mint example of a game. Again, just my opinion.
Quoted from lb1:I understand this too. Personally, I'd be willing to pay more for the HEP because I personally feel it is better than new, the glasslike clear coat being the single most important part. The other angle is the near complete absence of such HUO machines. If money is no object, you can't find a mint specimen and you really want one, HEP is the way to go at a fair price considering the craftsmanship and the end result. In the end, the value is what someone's willing to pay, and the market has become a lot more liquid and transparent in the past few years which should be good for almost everyone.
Interestingly though, I was just looking at "SS." target="_blank">sfbay.craigslist.org link
Note... Still working on getting the CL link right - if anyone is interested.
I'm happy to know my own HUO SS is probably worth a lot more than I thought. 
A nicely clear coated pf is one thing that can be added to an original. Don't need HEP for that. I've debated stripping my own to have it clear coated by Kruzman. But beyond that, as beautiful as a HEP restore is, I just don't see the value being SO much over an original mint game (in this case, 5 or 6k?). To each his own, however. Maybe I just haven't realized how high the prices on SS have been getting?
Quoted from smassa:It wouldnt be an original HUO SS then would it???
I mean that was your point originally wasnt it? That you would rather have an original HUO SS over a Restored?
Yes, I would rather have an original over a restore. ADDING clear coat to an original in no way takes away or replaces original parts of the game. It's still very much all original. It only protects them further (like adding Cliffy's IMO). In a restoration, frequently many things are replaced with updated parts (reproduced decals or plastics, pf repros, new cabinets, different generic parts, etc. etc.). Thus, I prefer a 100% original game as close to original condition. But that's just me and my own opinion.
Quoted from TigerLaw:I don't see how one can argue some mods aren't totally superior to factory stuff. Look at the arcade in Tron...I've not seen one person say they prefer the stock arcade that lights up to say "Tron" over the improved arcade that plays the Tron attract video game attract mode...
I certainly wouldn't make an argument like that. Some mods really are better or cooler looking. However, I do like to collect the game parts as the game was originally intended so I would most definitely still want the original toy/part kept with the game.
The only point I was making (which is just an opinion) is that I put higher value on original games in mint condition than I do in restores because I don't like the idea of all the reproduced parts that essentially are just forgeries to a certain extent. Same thing with most collectibles out there including cars.
Quoted from Imeh:It's seems many on here really don't understand what a "HEP" restoration consists of. Chris will do what the owner requests, be that a total restoration to exacting original conditions, or modded to the max. Chris insists all restorations done, meet his extremely high "HEP" standards, but the machine is done to the owners individual desires. This results in quite a variation in cost, as pricing is directly related to the labor and materials involved in each individual machine. It may be 6k to do one TZ, while its 12k to do another, because of the owners demands for plating, mods, or other improvements and the condition of the donor machine. Every machine is an individual project, other than his standards for quality that he will not compromise, each is done to the desires of the owner and the cost and value reflects it. There is no question, any machine receiving this level of restoration plays "better than new" as it comes properly tuned and adjusted, as opposed to any NIB machine.
If you haven't owned one or had the opportunity to play one extensively, it's hard to really appreciate the difference, but anyone who believes a HMO or NIB machine is in the same class as one of his restorations, is plain ignorant of the facts.
It may not be worth the investment to many, but to question the quality of the machine and its play is beyond reason.
Did anyone here question the quality of his restorations? No. That's great that they "play better" than NIB because the game tweaks have been done for you but that does not address the issue of games being "all original" or not. Does he use reproduced plastics? Reproduced ramps? Reproduction playfields? etc. etc. etc. All I stated was that I put a higher value on all original games still in mint condition over a HEP label. As you noted yourself, what went into any one restoration can be all over the map. You seem to put a higher value simply on how a game plays. That's fine.
Quoted from Imeh:Maybe you missed this part.
No. That is exactly my point. The HEP label alone tells you little (or at least it tells me little). It could be loaded with reproduced parts, correct?? If it was 100% all original I would put a higher value on it too. But you guys are only arguing the value of the "HEP label" by itself.
Quoted from Saveleaningtower:Chili. Unfortunately for you and your SS, the market doesn't put a higher value on huo originals versus Hep. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I know I'd rather have hep. Actually, the best case scenario is sending a nib pin to Chris for the royal treatment. Many people have done this with their Sterns and I was considering it with my nib TRON LE.
There is little doubt that HEP restorations are very desirable for some. Although, I don't know if it's really realistic to expect to get the same amount of money out of the game that you put into it (to HEP) when you go to resell. We'll see. How long has this been for sale now?
Quoted from Imeh:You seem to have missed the point, Chris will do what you want. If you insist on all original parts, that's what he will do. If it's impossible to attain the parts, he will refuse the job. Every HEP is done to the owners wishes, and thus the difference in pricing on the same title. The HEP label certainly has value, but you can have a 6k HEP or a 16k HEP strictly depending on the work and material required to meet the owners expectations, but both will be built to his high standards.
No, it seems to be you that is missing my point. 
So nevermind. GLWS, free bumps.
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