These are no "W" chips - only as a short hint.

Yes, the "W" is very important since the "no W" version will have compatibility issues in pinball boards.

FM16W08 is not FM1608.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

I take it pinball MPUs need the wide voltage version?

I used these a lot when they first came out and never had a problem. If someone DID have a problem, the solution would be to bypass the blocking diode.

Same here....we used these a lot without any problems before they became hard to obtain and (too) expensive a few years ago. The only time I had problems was with a bad quality batch from China, 50% didn't make the tests with my Eprom programmer. After that I started experimenting with Simtek devices.

Marco

.

Why no love for Europe?

FM1608 is proven to work just fine and like I said, if there WERE a problem, the solution would be to simply bypass the blocking diode.

I used these for probably two years before the FM16W08 came out and had no problems. I used them in adapters for 5101, 6116, and as a sub for 6264 and gave a bunch away to people at shows (I think Tim Arnold and Clay have them for sure) and sold a bunch to people. No complaints.

It was a nice way to start out making NVRAM adapters actually because the DIP parts were easy to work with. Then I switched to using FM1608 in SOIC in my adapters (again, before FM16W08 came out) because they discontinued the DIP parts. There are probably ~100 machines out there in the world with FM1608 in them in the form of these adapters. Then ultimately I switched to FM16W08 because of the wider voltage range assuming that one day there would probably come a situation where it was warranted. Then they started only making the W part, and the rest is history.

I still have ~200 FM1608. I wouldn't hesitate to use them to replace any RAM in pinball because I've already been doing it for years with no problems.

Definitely do the test, but I can confirm that this will work. This is exactly how I test my adapters (6116 and 6264).

@Andrew:
It was not me!!!!
In post #2 I only wanted to give the hint, that it is not the "W" chip. My only intention was, to protect you from problems - not the people come and say, " ... you offered the "better" W chip, but we got "only" the FM1608 ..."
Of course, the FM1608 will do his work as Lindsay desccribed. Only problems might come in WPC-machines, when the +5VDC-section is low and you already have the well known reset problem.
That has - of course - nothing to do with the FM1608, but with the weak +5VDC-section.

I wish you much sucess in selling them.

- Ingo

Quit spewing your bull**POO**. You're just trying to compensate for the fact that you sell the same god**DARNED** thing for three times the price. Your comments aren't grounded in reality, and your libelous bull**POO** isn't wanted here.

Let's talk about how you lied about the chips Barakandl is selling.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/installing-barakandls-nvram-battery-eliminator-vids-review

Really dude? I have no idea what your deal is with me, but grow up.

Ignorance of an issue doesn't mean the issue doesn't exist, or the person informing someone of the issue is a liar.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

"my issue with you" is that you appear to be lying about the usefulness of what someone else is selling, presumably to maintain your own profit margins on a similar product.

What's the specific issue that can be caused using these? I hate to throw gas on the fire but I'm genuinely curious because I've never had any issues using these and there shouldn't really be any based on the specs for the RAM outlined in the data sheet.

There is no issue.

If there was not enough voltage, you would simply jumper over a diode.

Easy. But I've not seen a game that has ever needed it.

Then there are no issues, since that's not what I'm doing. I simply stated that the FM1608 (non-W, wide voltage version) had issues in some pinball boards. Yes, a jumper on the board to effectively eliminate the blocking diode allows the part to work.

Ultimately getting batteries off of boards is the goal, however someone wishes to do it, of course I'd like it to be anyPin, I don't make them to just sit on the shelf. But, getting more people to get batteries off of their boards is a great thing.

I've been using the FM1608 for more than 12 years, as I've said most won't notice an issue, but the write enable voltage tolerance is such that it won't allow writing in some pinball boards without modifying the board. Easy for some, intimidating for others, not the point. The point is, simply plugging it in won't always work.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

which pinball boards have you had troubles with the FM1608?

Which boards have you seen show these problems? If it's a specific system it would be good information to share.

I took a look at the data sheets for FM1608 and FM16W08 because I was curious about the "write enable voltage". I didn't see specific conditions noted for the /WE pin, but the inputs for both chips are listed as 2V minimum as "input high voltage". The FM1608 specifies 2V. The FM16W08 specifies 0.7 × VDD so the minimum would be 1.89V, but that would be at 2.7V supply. At the voltages present in a pinball machine the minimum voltage for a high condition is actually HIGHER (4.5V x 0.7 = 3.15) for the FM16W08 according to the data sheet, but that's not necessarily the case. Either way, it's basically a wash. They're rated the same.

The obvious difference between them is min/max supply voltage. The FM1608 is advertised to operate down to 4.5V and the FM16W08 to 2.7V. Makes sense for their part to be able to work in 3.3V systems so the W part makes sense in that context. Other than that they're basically the same in terms of DC operating conditions.

Data sheets for 6116 and 6264 show basically the same operating conditions (4.5V-5.5V supply voltage, 2V minimum for high input). So in theory, any machine that has problems with FM1608 would also be vulnerable to the same problems with 6116 or 6264 (the RAM already in the machine).

I would expect to find a power supply problem in any game that has the RAM flaking out because of supply voltage. The FM16W08 may be rated down to 2.7V but most of the other chips on the MPU are rated 4.5V-5.5V (including the CPU). I've seen games happily running along below 4.5V, and maybe dropping in a different RAM would cause a problem in those cases, but the real problem is that the power supply is old and tired.

Sorry, it's System 11 mostly, thought I posted that...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/1n5817$20ram/rec.games.pinball/8dvWeOEAk4k/J-enXaN9Vw4J

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/1n5817$20ram/rec.games.pinball/qUYaqc7m0nQ/jNirTYhfOvkJ

It's amazing to me that people that I would think would know about this issue seem to have no clue. And those that do know about it seem to want to sweep it under the rug.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

FWIW, I've experienced some issues with using DIP RAMTRON on at least one Data East game. I'm not sure what the issue was, but without the 1n5817 jumpered it would occasionally lose its settings. Could have been a weak power supply as mentioned or some fluke line voltage condition at the time. Either way, the additional voltage drop of the diode was causing issues. Jumpering the diode seemed to clear it up. Also, from what I remember an smd based RAMTRON adapter worked fine in that same machine.. at the same time I was testing the DIP part. There shouldn't have been any difference, but something was happening.

That single experience was enough for me to realize a low voltage condition *may* be an issue for some people, regardless of what's causing it to occur. Maybe someone that has the time and is more excited about nvram these days can do some testing & compare signals of the DIP part versus an adapter built with SMD parts to see if there is any difference in when the part starts misbehaving (prior to the machine itself having issues).

I built the adapters Scott is referring to in those threads. I know that there were no issues with those specific adapters because I tested them myself (in a system 11 MPU with blocking diode installed).

I'm curious if Scott posted those suggestions based on experience or simply as a matter of best practice. I remember sending him some RAMs for free years ago and a couple other boards that we were kind of working on together but I don't remember him specifically mentioning any problems. I would like to pick up on some of that stuff, actually. I wonder what he's up to these days. I do remember telling virtually everyone that I gave those original RAMs to that they should bypass the blocking diode because the voltage drop might put the RAM out of spec. When I cover my ass I like to use both hands. I would probably do the same thing if I were selling adapters with FM1608 today because a discussion like this is pretty much unavoidable otherwise with so many people jumping into the NVRAM adapter game. But like I said, I don't recall a single person reporting a problem and I never had any. I've never claimed it's not a possible issue. Just shared my personal experience without injecting bias or conjecture.

It's a weird irony that I'm kind of indirectly providing information for both sides of this argument.

I acknowledged the potential for an issue and provided a solution in my first reply. That should preclude me from team sweep-up-no-clue. As far as it being a "known issue" that I should be aware of because of a history with my adapters, I don't because it's not.

Would you consider shipping to Canada?

I swapped 2 of mine so far. Took longer to change my settings than change the chip. Only bummer is the loss of high scores.

Does anyone know what would happen if someone came along and put batteries in the machine? Would it destroy the memory chip? These were sega machines