Jupiter, FL
Quoted from cheshirefilms:That said HEP games are works of art and museum pieces. They stand alone.
I'm curious...have you ever owned a HEP restored game?
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Quoted from snaroff:I'm curious...have you ever owned a HEP restored game?
I have seen examples in person. Of course my opinion is merely my own, but I'm very detail oriented and have been blown away by what happens when the underside of an old game like a Black Knight looks better than new after Chris' efforts.
Quoted from cheshirefilms:That said HEP games are works of art and museum pieces. They stand alone.
They do stand alone but in a very intricate way. One of the ways my HEP CV stands out is the way the front edges of the, Back Box, were prepped and painted. (Smoother Shinier) Chris has a very unique way of doing his Back Boxes. If I hadn't read his documentation on my Game, I would not have known all the intricate detailed paint work he put into the Original Sample Playfield. (no room for screw ups there since you can't just buy a new sample play field) I marvel at the risks he takes when does each machine. The more rare the machine, the bigger the risk. 
Quoted from cheshirefilms:I have seen examples in person. Of course my opinion is merely my own, but I'm very detail oriented and have been blown away by what happens when the underside of an old game like a Black Knight looks better than new after Chris' efforts.
I just think it's funny when folks that haven't owned HEP games claim boldly that "They stand alone". I restored an AFM with Chris in 2010, so I'm very familiar with his work/process. I also owned a HEP CCC posted earlier in this thread. I no longer own either game.
Chris has built an impressive brand/business. Chris is great at all aspects of pinball restoration. His support after you receive the game is also exceptional. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Chris supports his games even when you aren't the original owner! A true pleasure to work with.
With all that background/kudos out of the way, each restoration is unique. Chris is the first to acknowledge his techniques are constantly changing. The notion that all HEP games are perfect and "stand alone" always causes me to shake my head...that's all.
Quoted from snaroff:I just think it's funny when folks that haven't owned HEP games claim boldly that "They stand alone". I restored an AFM with Chris in 2010, so I'm very familiar with his work/process. I also owned a HEP CCC posted earlier in this thread. I no longer own either game.
Chris has built an impressive brand/business. Chris is great at all aspects of pinball restoration. His support after you receive the game is also exceptional. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Chris supports his games even when you aren't the original owner! A true pleasure to work with.
With all that background/kudos out of the way, each restoration is unique. Chris is the first to acknowledge his techniques are constantly changing. The notion that all HEP games are perfect and "stand alone" always causes me to shake my head...that's all.
So if I don't own the Mona Lisa or painted one with DaVinci I can't understand the craft involved? I'm not knocking the work from the other masters in the country. Who would I be to turn down a Keller resto, for example? But I do believe Chris' work is a true gold standard by which others can keep company with pride. And one day I'd love to own one.
Quoted from snaroff:I just think it's funny when folks that haven't owned HEP games claim boldly that "They stand alone". I restored an AFM with Chris in 2010, so I'm very familiar with his work/process. I also owned a HEP CCC posted earlier in this thread. I no longer own either game.
Chris has built an impressive brand/business. Chris is great at all aspects of pinball restoration. His support after you receive the game is also exceptional. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Chris supports his games even when you aren't the original owner! A true pleasure to work with.
With all that background/kudos out of the way, each restoration is unique. Chris is the first to acknowledge his techniques are constantly changing. The notion that all HEP games are perfect and "stand alone" always causes me to shake my head...that's all.
Thanks Steve.
Yes. There is definitely an evolution about them. It is generational just like lots of other products.
The driving force behind that is primarily more and more experience ,better resources and feedback.
It isn’t because there is anything wrong with the older games they were well done at the time but after seven or eight years things become less representative of current standards or what to expect today.
Here is an example.
If I restored a AFM in 2006 then I had no choice other than to restore the original playfield and use laminated side art.
If I did it in 2016 I could install a new Mirco playfield and screen printed side art.
Both games would be HEPs technically and the best I could do at the time but looking at either one today and just simply saying it is a HEP could give a false impression.
This is just part of doing something a long time.
I wish everyone in the pinball community could have the resources, funds, opportunity, time, or whatever it may be to own a HEP machine from start to finish. Yes, first and foremost, you will have an amazing machine that not only looks literally better than new. It will play better than new. It will also be virtually indestructible (within reason - under normal play). But that is not the entire story..... The initial “get to know you” conversations, the details about what is expected, and the initial game inspection once he receives it are fantastic and really get you excited. Once your game restoration is started. The real pearls are the email updates about progress and notes and all the little details. A previous poster was exactly right. You May. It pick out every detail by looking at a finished machine. But you will notice it along the progress. It is a HEP “experience”. We have sent many many games to Chris. We are at the point where we have almost run out of games to send. The next one in line for us, my wife does t want to send yet because she likes
Playing it so much and would miss it. She actually asked if we could buy another of the same title while we send Chris ours and then sell it once we got ours back. That is guy logic if I’ve ever heard it.
Quoted from cheshirefilms:So if I don't own the Mona Lisa or painted one with DaVinci I can't understand the craft involved? I'm not knocking the work from the other masters in the country. Who would I be to turn down a Keller resto, for example? But I do believe Chris' work is a true gold standard by which others can keep company with pride. And one day I'd love to own one.
Unlike static art, pinball is dynamic/kinetic. I've owned and played many aesthetically gorgeous restorations that played like shit. So when it comes to pinball, how a game plays *over time* is critical to understanding the true brilliance of a high-end restoration.
I'll give you an example. I purchased a gorgeous Keller MM with very low plays. Soon after getting it home, the trolls switches started misbehaving. When I inspected the troll switches, I realized they were the original switches! ("cleaned up" but still very worn/wonky). Pretty shocked that a restorer wouldn't install new/fresh switches! To his credit, when I contacted Chad and told him about my issues, he sent me new troll switches (which I installed to fix the issues). He apologized and agreed that new switches should have been installed on such an extreme, costly restoration.
So...yes, I believe until you've owned 1 or more extreme restorations, it's hard to fully understand everything that goes into the process. It's not just about how pretty it looks in pictures...it's how it plays!
I did not chrome the coin door on purpose because in my humble opinion it was over the top and does not enhance the theme. That’s why I kept the original train and had a chrome one done. So I could always change it back. I have also toyed with (and I will if I keep it) on having another train professionally painted by a modeling painter. I think that would look nice.
I did use a chrome coin door on a BOP restore I did and it was ok but in the end, I thought it was overkill. When I got my HEP BOP, it was crystal clear. I sold my other BOP.
Interesting thought to not post pics on purpose. Personally, I'd never contact just to see the pics, what a hassle when I could be able to easily view them in a FS thread, dropbox , drive etc. Wouldn't it be less work for you to post them once anyways? Also, looks like something is to be hidden if pics can't be posted. Just my 2cents. Tough sell with no pics, people just move on.
1 week later
Selling/buying a pin of this price range, in my experience, is kinda like buying a car or something similar. There will be phone calls, emails, lots of communications. People don’t just come across this thread and go “oh, maybe I’ll buy that”. It takes the right buyer. But, I respect your opinion and agree it might be applicable on a pin of lesser cost and rareity.
This game is wildly overpriced for Pinside...not surprised it's still available.
If you are really interested in a sale/trade, you'll likely need to knock 4-5k off the price (which is better than knocking 7-8k off the price if Chicago Gaming decides to remake it!).
Quoted from snaroff:This game is wildly overpriced for Pinside...not surprised it's still available.
If you are really interested in a sale/trade, you'll likely need to knock 4-5k off the price (which is better than knocking 7-8k off the price if Chicago Gaming decides to remake it!).
Not at all true... no way is 4-5K overpriced
Quoted from snaroff:This game is wildly overpriced for Pinside...not surprised it's still available.
If you are really interested in a sale/trade, you'll likely need to knock 4-5k off the price (which is better than knocking 7-8k off the price if Chicago Gaming decides to remake it!).
Not sure I agree here... not for an HEP. OK maybe without Continued Kit $2500. CGC can't touch this one! The guys that will go after the remake wouldn't be interested in this anyway. 
Quoted from ToucanF16:Not at all true... no way is 4-5K overpriced
Whatever. If this were priced fairly, it would have been sold weeks ago.
Quoted from whthrs166:Not sure I agree here... not for an HEP. OK maybe without Continued Kit $2500. CGC can't touch this one! The guys that will go after the remake wouldn't be interested in this anyway.
My HEP CCC sold in days for 14k (2 years ago). There are definitely folks that might pay more, but they aren't on Pinside. The CGC remake madness has effected many titles. My HEP AFM sold for 10k last year. If CGC weren't cranking them out, the game would have likely sold for what I had in it (which was 12-13k).
If you don't think CGC has effected HEP AFM/MB/MM values, you are fooling yourself!
Quoted from snaroff:If you don't think CGC has effected HEP AFM/MB/MM values, you are fooling yourself!
I never said CGC's remakes didn't effect values. I said CGC has nothing on this particular HEP game. CGC and their remake program is creating a special market for really super nice originals with very low plays and HEP style restored games. And if you don't see that then it's you that is the fool! 
Wonder if Rick owns the rights to Capcom? Crazy no one knows. I am saying no because on his site he only claims to have the rights to Bally/Williams.
I would put my HEP AFM, HEP MM, and HEP MB next to any special edition remake of the same title and they would blow the remakes away as far as feel, smooth play, durability, and attention to detail. They are not in the same category. Not knocking them just to be clear. It’s just apples & oranges.
They do have their place. Lots of people can own those titles for reasonable amounts of money. The HEP market, from what I have seen first hand, is unaffected. I don’t have to sell my HEP CC. That allows me to be ultra picky. I get PM’d all the time about my HEP collection with offers of sale & trade. I still have them because we love them.
Quoted from Apollon:They are not in the same category.
Quoted from Apollon:It’s just apples & oranges.
Sounds like a case for creating entirely separate game ID's on Pinside so we're not constantly confused, and know to pay more.
Quoted from snaroff:Whatever. If this were priced fairly, it would have been sold weeks ago.
My HEP CCC sold in days for 14k (2 years ago). There are definitely folks that might pay more, but they aren't on Pinside. The CGC remake madness has effected many titles. My HEP AFM sold for 10k last year. If CGC weren't cranking them out, the game would have likely sold for what I had in it (which was 12-13k).
If you don't think CGC has effected HEP AFM/MB/MM values, you are fooling yourself!
Is it Possible games cost less 2 years ago and the market is going up on rare titles? Is it also possible your a bit upset you sold yours in a few days not knowing you could have gotten significantly More for your machine? HEP games are a special piece for a special buyer which are out there. HEP defined a museum collector quality market. You just can't expect to move HEP's or a Ferrari in 2 days like a Stern. Just an opinion. Our HEP TZ is beyond words and never have I seen one or played one better.
Quoted from whthrs166:I never said CGC's remakes didn't effect values. I said CGC has nothing on this particular HEP game. CGC and their remake program is creating a special market for really super nice originals with very low plays and HEP style restored games. And if you don't see that then it's you that is the fool!
Don't see that? You are stating the immediately obvious. Please.
What you aren't recognizing is the "threat" of a remake for an A-list Bally/Williams still effects the games value. Monster Bash values started dropping years before CGC's recent release of MBr. It was on the radar. I sold an MB in 2015 and remake buzz was starting to effect prices.
It's the perception of many that CC is next in line. Sure, there is speculation on how/if they will spice up the rule set, but that's a detail CGC is capable of figuring out. It's just software.
The other issue you are off target on is this: Many collectors don't have any "religion" regarding HEP or remake. If the game looks/plays great, that's all they care about. I recognize some collectors are hardline (and would prefer a HEP original). I happen to be in that camp (my experience with AFMrLE was unpleasant). Nevertheless, the population of hardline original fans is shrinking. MANY folks perceive new tech is better.
Quoted from Yelobird:Is it Possible games cost less 2 years ago and the market is going up on rare titles? Is it also possible your a bit upset you sold yours in a few days not knowing you could have gotten significantly More for your machine? HEP games are a special piece for a special buyer which are out there. HEP defined a museum collector quality market. You just can't expect to move HEP's or a Ferrari in 2 days like a Stern. Just an opinion. Our HEP TZ is beyond words and never have I seen one or played one better.
I'm not upset at all. I'm simply speaking from experience. I was totally happy with selling my example for 14k and don't miss the game at all.
I think original player quality games and maybe even well taken care of shopped games may take a hit on resale value based on a remake of that particular title. I am of the opinion based on my experience and feelings that a HEP example of a remake is not affected.
Quoted from Apollon:I think original player quality games and maybe even well taken care of shopped games may take a hit on resale value based on a remake of that particular title. I am of the opinion based on my experience and feelings that a HEP example of a remake is not affected.
That's a fine opinion to have, I guess my experience has been different (based on my HEP AFM/CCC sales). Granted, my experience is only based on 2 HEP games, however I've owned/sold other extreme restorations (Keller MM, PMD TOTAN) with similar experience.
In the end, the market will dictate which "opinion" is more valid. Trust me, I'd love to see you get 18k for your game! I just think it's highly unlikely to find "that buyer" here on Pinside (based on my experience selling high-end games).
I’m not specifically using Pinside as my target. I list stuff on MrPinball as well as our local Bash site. It’s all Google searchable. As far as I know, there is no HEP classified. There is a lot of word of mouth. They always seem to find me.
Quoted from snaroff:I just think it's highly unlikely to find "that buyer" here on Pinside (based on my experience selling high-end games).
I disagree. Why do I disagree? Because of the silent majority of Pinside and discussing this very topic with high profile collectors here locally. There are many on here that do not post on the forum but they read and PM. These are people that want to remain out of the mainstream. If these high profile A titles didn't sell or get exposer on here sellers wouldn't waste their time posting them for sale on the forum.
Quoted from whthrs166:I disagree. Why do I disagree? Because of the silent majority of Pinside and discussing this very topic with high profile collectors here locally. There are many on here that do not post on the forum but they read and PM. These are people that want to remain out of the mainstream. If these high profile A titles didn't sell or get exposer on here sellers wouldn't waste their time posting them for sale on the forum.
Understood. Once again, my experience is based on selling high-end games on Pinside for years on both coasts. The "big money" buyers don't typically shop on Pinside...they call a broker/retailer who finds rare, upscale titles (I know many of them). For example, I sold my HEP CCC to an LA broker who flipped it to a rich/famous pinball lover that would never deal directly here on Pinside. Chances are, he sold if for 15-16k after buying it from me for 14k. I don't typically sell to brokers, but wasn't in the mood for an aggravating Pinside FS experience. Just wanted a quick sale...
Sounds like Apollon understands all this...
1 year later
Quoted from ToucanF16:Brand new and HEP are two different cats.
Chris does fine work, but a remake is a 3rd the cost of this HEP. I do prefer originals over remakes for home use, but those CGC pins are the most reliable pins for route, they are like tanks.
It is common for the “CGC is remaking” that title to come up. Well..... I suppose given enough time, all pins will be remade. But there really is nothing like an original, doesn't matter how awesome the light show or topper is. A major part of pinball is a trip down memory lane with an original title that was actually around during that time and probably on route. There is a connection to made with an original. Isn’t that pinball, a snap shot into pop culture of the time?
I think I’d have to shoot myself if I ever payed this much for a pinball machine. It’s a great game but not THAT good.
Quoted from snaroff:This game is wildly overpriced for Pinside...not surprised it's still available.
If you are really interested in a sale/trade, you'll likely need to knock 4-5k off the price (which is better than knocking 7-8k off the price if Chicago Gaming decides to remake it!).
Still available. Lol.
Quoted from ToucanF16:Not at all true... no way is 4-5K overpriced
ToucanF16 Guess I was right
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:Still available. Lol.
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