(Topic ID: 311084)

Flipping for Profit - Part of the problem in our hobby

By Animal

2 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 137 posts
  • 78 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Nethawk86
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Flipping NIB for profit is a problem in our hobby”

  • Agree 108 votes
    45%
  • Disagree 25 votes
    11%
  • You can't change the world Pal, don't even try!! 105 votes
    44%

(238 votes)

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There are 137 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 3.
#101 2 years ago

So, with Rush Pro at 115 in the pinside ratings maybe those who don't like the practice of pinball flipping just may see the flippers stuck with some LE's on their hands. Who knows? Time will tell, particularly since Stern has manufactured 1000 of 'em.

#102 2 years ago
Quoted from Animal:

So, with Rush Pro at 115 in the pinside ratings maybe those who don't like the practice of pinball flipping just may see the flippers stuck with some LE's on their hands. Who knows? Time will tell, particularly since Stern has manufactured 1000 of 'em.

While that would be hilarious, but it won't happen. They could just drop the price and they would disappear. Imagine being able to acquire a RUSH LE for only 1000 dollars over list price. Poof, gone, sold, next. List it for 12000 (a tidy profit) and it would be gone in a day. Nobody is getting stuck with anything.

#103 2 years ago
Quoted from FlippyD:

Wish there'd actually be more flipping for Prophet. Sell your game for Jesus!

what's his ifpa #

#104 2 years ago
Quoted from jake35:

I own a Ferrari. I wish everyone else could as well, they are amazing machines.

I will say, i timed it to where i gave my office staff a substantial raise before I took delivery of it so I didn't kill the morale at the workplace lol

Damn! What do you do and do you need any extra employees? I work hard and show up on time. Lol

#105 2 years ago
Quoted from SonOfaDiddly:what's his ifpa #

#69

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#106 2 years ago
Quoted from Friengineer:

Damn! What do you do and do you need any extra employees? I work hard and show up on time. Lol

Pinball flipper!

#107 2 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

While that would be hilarious, but it won't happen. They could just drop the price and they would disappear. Imagine being able to acquire a RUSH LE for only 1000 dollars over list price. Poof, gone, sold, next. List it for 12000 (a tidy profit) and it would be gone in a day. Nobody is getting stuck with anything.

Seems like with an 11k MSRP, 12k might be the final cost for many initial buyers depending on tax etc?

#109 2 years ago
Quoted from NPO:

I vote this "humble brag of the year."

I had to look up humble brag but that is funny but so true. Was Ferrari the only word that he related to out of the post that he quoted?

14
#110 2 years ago

Reality is coming very soon. As a car dealer we have really struggled over the last two years. New cars have been bought by dealers at MSRP and then resold either wholesale or retail at 10 to 30 percent over MSRP.

Well, that changed today. My friend who flips high end cars for a living said that the auction was dead today and he could not even get a bid on his Jeep Gladiator or Wrangler that just 1 month ago would have had a bidding war on. The talk at the auction was fuel prices and the insanity of the market being out of the reach of the average customer. It has just been wealthy people playing musical chairs with limited inventory. I think there are many markets that have been overheated due to people with money buying limited items. Once the common guy gets priced out of the market or supply increases we will see huge deflation of luxury items regardless of what general inflation does. People paying $15 to $20k for a GBLE are going to have $5-$10k of devaluation shortly IMO. Same goes for people buying new boats and then thinking they will make 10% in 2 years when they want to sell. In reality, boats always lost 20 to 30 percent the first year. We will be going back to that reality.

#111 2 years ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

Well, that changed today.

People are freaked out about the possibility of ... crap, is this allowed to say here? Well the first word is World, and I will let you guess the second word. It's an unsure time, and will take at least another month to work itself out one way or the other. If I was rolling in money right now, I could figure out better things to grab right now than a Jeep Gladiator. Like making sure my ham sandwich supply chain was solid.

#112 2 years ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

Reality is coming very soon. As a car dealer we have really struggled over the last two years. New cars have been bought by dealers at MSRP and then resold either wholesale or retail at 10 to 30 percent over MSRP.
Well, that changed today. My friend who flips high end cars for a living said that the auction was dead today and he could not even get a bid on his Jeep Gladiator or Wrangler that just 1 month ago would have had a bidding war on. The talk at the auction was fuel prices and the insanity of the market being out of the reach of the average customer. It has just been wealthy people playing musical chairs with limited inventory. I think there are many markets that have been overheated due to people with money buying limited items. Once the common guy gets priced out of the market or supply increases we will see huge deflation of luxury items regardless of what general inflation does. People paying $15 to $20k for a GBLE are going to have $5-$10k of devaluation shortly IMO. Same goes for people buying new boats and then thinking they will make 10% in 2 years when they want to sell. In reality, boats always lost 20 to 30 percent the first year. We will be going back to that reality.

Cars and pinball machines are different.

#113 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Cars and pinball machines are different.

Have to disagree with you there. Boats, Cars, Planes, Luxury Watches, etc are all up the same percentage. Nobody needs a $15k LE that sold new 2 years prior for $8k. When production runs up and the funny money goes away you will see some serious deals in all these assets.

#114 2 years ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

Have to disagree with you there..

LMAO

You disagree that cars and pinball machines are different?

I officially give up. You win.

Pinball machines are exactly like cars. The bubble will burst. Pinball machines will be worthless in two years. Oh by the way...

2000:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/high$20prices$20market$20collapse%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/gzU8ZAOxvUE/qII_fx4klQ0J

2001:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pricing$20decrease%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/3XZf_itbXjY/QI04T4Qr9UkJ

2002:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pinball$20price$20bubble%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/8CDhldb5kyw/JxQRQPIGmQwJ

2003:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pinball$20market$20price$20fall%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/clAO0zIHHfQ/CbExiOZrldIJ

2004:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pricing$20decrease%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/pXZDb-2V6Yk/GSPWq06-nWsJ

2005:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pricing$20bubble%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/ACTs0HpQktA/x-C5LZAF180J

2006:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pinball$20price$20bubble%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/dBrqPnk7mkk/nQYyh65_fewJ

2007:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pinball$20prices$20fall%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/femnxuH8a1k/oeXzsItDbOQJ

2008:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/high$20prices$20market$20collapse%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/44iMVjwb68o/wXb8-3F9vOIJ

2009:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pricing$20market%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/JsgTrS05pCc/8pB5t9oUqTAJ

2010:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/pricing$20market%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/hNRZGnOAZ-Y/bs8Js1M7sUAJ

2011:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/high$20prices$20market$20collapse%7Csort:date/rec.games.pinball/DlcZoruS0Bo/VO_cueyPCEQJ

2012:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinball-price-bubble-think-it-cant-happen-think-again

2013:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinball-price-bubble-will-pop

2014:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/this-is-not-a-rebirth-of-pinball-its-a-bubble

2015:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/we-all-want-the-ass-to-drop-out-of-pinball

2016:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/when-will-the-stern-bubble-burst

2017:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/are-we-in-a-pinball-bubble

2018:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/why-i-feel-pinball-prices-are-going-to-plummet

2019:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/will-pinball-prices-come-down-

2020:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/prices-dropping-

2021 (this year was a fuggin BANNER YEAR for price bubble threads...maybe it's something in the vaccines! here's a pathetically partial list):
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinball-pricing-bubble-due-to-covid-one-nine
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/similarities-with-pinball-market-amp-the-2008-housing-crash
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/next-pinball-depression-
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-feel-about-these-exorbitant-pinball-prices/page/2#post-6254131
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pingreed-is-a-cancer-is-there-a-cure
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/prices-of-pinball-machines-today#post-6229413
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinflation-or-inflation
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/price-gouging
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/f-you-stern-and-your-price-increases
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/are-pinballs-the-beanie-baby-craze-of-the-2020s
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/we-have-jumped-the-shark

2022:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/perspective-on-pricing-

#115 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Pinball machines are exactly like cars. The bubble will burst. Pinball machines will be worthless in two years.

Hello (resized).jpgHello (resized).jpg

#116 2 years ago

I just got into this hobby. I am hoping that there is a bubble burst, and I can get some pins for reasonable prices. My first ever one is supposed to come this month, and I am excited.

#117 2 years ago
Quoted from unclerudy:

I just got into this hobby. I am hoping that there is a bubble burst, and I can get some pins for reasonable prices. My first ever one is supposed to come this month, and I am excited.

You aren't worried about the complete economic collapse that would be the only reason the "bubble burst?" Why do you think you'd be in a position to buy games if that would happen, unlike everybody else who is being forced to sell off their games cheap to pay the rent?

Wouldn't you be more concerned about still being able to afford your house payments, or fending off the hordes of scavengers trying to steal your last can of Chef Boy R Dee?

#118 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

You aren't worried about the complete economic collapse that would be the only reason the "bubble burst?" Why do you think you'd be in a position to buy games if that would happen, unlike everybody else who is being forced to sell off their games cheap to pay the rent?
Wouldn't you be more concerned about still being able to afford your house payments, or fending off the hordes of scavengers trying to steal your last can of Chef Boy R Dee?

I just want cheaper pins, not the entire collapse of society. The pin bubble bursting doesn't require everything else to go tits up.

#119 2 years ago
Quoted from unclerudy:

I just want cheaper pins, not the entire collapse of society. The pin bubble bursting doesn't require everything else to go tits up.

Not gonna happen. They will never be as cheap as they are right now. And if they ever become worthless, you've got bigger problems.

-1
#120 2 years ago
Quoted from unclerudy:

I just want cheaper pins, not the entire collapse of society. The pin bubble bursting doesn't require everything else to go tits up.

This is where we disagree.

People still don't get it. They still don't realize that pinball is STILL an incredibly niche hobby. The room for growth is immeasurable, as we've seen over the past few years.

We aren't anywhere near the crest, and pinball is still "cheap." Maybe not as ridiculously undervalued as it was 10-15 years ago, but still a long ways to go.

Oh wait...i forgot that pinball machines are exactly the same as cars. Which also soon will be worthless, for some reason.

#121 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Cars and pinball machines are different.

Cars, pinball machines.. potatoes, tomatoes..

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#122 2 years ago

I don't care what they are worth in the future. I bought them to enjoy, not as an investment. Besides, if you trade them and the values go down it won't matter anyway, should be able to still trade them for another machines of equal value.

#123 2 years ago

The cost of pins doesn't really matter to anyone with over 5 of them. If that person wants a different pin, they just find another person in the situation. It's the people just starting off that it mostly affects.

#124 2 years ago

I would love to see the price of pins fall. I could not care less what the price of LEs or how many extra thousand people are willing to pay for that once in a lifetime opportunity to get a hold of an average routed Pro. I just want to be able to find a project that asking price isn't the same as HEP. The value of pins has completely lost touch. I wish the new shiny pin market would separate from the players pin market.

#125 2 years ago

To the poster who compared luxury cars to pins, I actually agree that there are similarities that are worth noting.
Pinball is supply and demand like anything else but they are incredibly expensive toys.
Pricing could fall on certain pins, especially as more are produced. I doubt Stranger Things LE stays at $18k.
But those are outliers now and will be the first to come back to reality.
The bubble ain’t gonna burst cause it’s not a bubble, it’s a trend, it’s a hobby etc.

#126 2 years ago

I bet the price frenzy will burst and the market will self regulate, buy if you want, don't buy if you don't want to.
Online culture create trends and FOMO, then people realize they were not that much into it and start offloading, buy less, which will regulate the whole chain.
Stern has the highest visibility on the market, so their NIBs are scarce on purpose and flipped for profit.
Looking at JJPGNR right now or all the AP pinballs, there's a second market with smaller players that run on a different commercial trend.

#127 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Cars and pinball machines are different.

Objection! Leading the witness!

#128 2 years ago
Quoted from unclerudy:

The cost of pins doesn't really matter to anyone with over 5 of them.

As a person with over five pins, I couldn't disagree more. What I buy, and when, is very much dictated by price. Everyone has a budget. While a $500 pin purchase may not make me lose much sleep at night, I am definitely not in the market for a $20,000 LE or a $14,000 Addams.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

We aren't anywhere near the crest, and pinball is still "cheap." Maybe not as ridiculously undervalued as it was 10-15 years ago, but still a long ways to go.

I am with @crazylevi, prices if you are wishing for prices to fall you are wishing for a pretty deep recession to slow buying down which will also, BTW, kill the manufacturers which will lower production which will reduce supply of NIB which will reduce supply of resale which will keep prices stable (there might be a few fire sales from stressed sellers, just like there are still a few bargains to be had today from uninformed sellers).

#129 2 years ago

LE flipping is what, a 1 year phenomenon? Who knows how long it will last

JP did t get flipped
Sth didn’t get flipped
Tnmt didn’t get flipped
Aiq didn’t get flipped
Did it start with gnr ce?

Premium flipping is a temporary thing, once the line catches up it will be back to reselling under msrp

#130 2 years ago

It’s part of the problem and part of the solution ….there are flippers that really add value by restoring games …

#131 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Yup. Nobody else has ever mentioned or brought up these issues before.
Bravo in taking this bold stand, and not being afraid to finally confront the pinball community with these issues. For the first time, somebody has had the courage to bring up things like "flipping games" and "high pinball prices." For the first time, a brave warrior of truth has brought to light this seedy underbelly of the hobby. It's painful, but it's necessary. We ALL have to look in the mirror!
When confronted with outside-the-box thinking like this, it's hard not to see a reckoning coming for not only the hobby, but Pinside itself!!! I'm pretty sure the people who run this site - and earn money when people sell pinball machines- will see the brilliance in banning people from selling pinball machines here. Who needs money when you are bringing paradigm-shifting change? Who needs to pay the bills, or their mortgages?
And really...a one-year ban for trying to sell a pinball machine? Why so soft? I'm thinking permanent vacation, or maybe even death, are more appropriate punishments for this crime against humanity.
You've given us all a lot to think about, and you may have just started a movement!
You may have just started A REVOLUTION!!!!!

Anyone else think that this guy should have his own pinball pod cast, or at least his own blog on pinside …one of the best commentary on pinside

#132 2 years ago

Some of you should learn to be happy with what you have right now.

#133 2 years ago
Quoted from spikelou2:

It’s part of the problem and part of the solution ….there are flippers that really add value by restoring games …

If you're adding value you're probably not a flipper. Few people complain about the buyer that finds a neglected $500 game, restores it, and sells for $1500. Flippers people hate are the ones that buy a pin, then resell it before they even take delivery or unload it off the truck. Those people are just exploiting market inefficiencies. They are not adding any value to the pin.

#134 2 years ago
Quoted from PoMC:

Some of you should learn to be happy with what you have right now.

That’s so true. Everybody here is doing at least as well if not better than about 95 percent of the people on the planet.

#135 2 years ago
Quoted from NashtyFunk:

To the poster who compared luxury cars to pins, I actually agree that there are similarities that are worth noting.
Pinball is supply and demand like anything else but they are incredibly expensive toys.
Pricing could fall on certain pins, especially as more are produced. I doubt Stranger Things LE stays at $18k.
But those are outliers now and will be the first to come back to reality.
The bubble ain’t gonna burst cause it’s not a bubble, it’s a trend, it’s a hobby etc.

No one can predict the future …

#136 2 years ago
Quoted from PoMC:

Some of you should learn to be happy with what you have right now.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

That’s so true. Everybody here is doing at least as well if not better than about 95 percent of the people on the planet.

I've said it before, I'm absolutely thrilled with my absurd collection in this absurd hobby. That's the same thing I said when I had one game (Pinball... in my HOUSE!?!?!).

#137 2 years ago
Quoted from Animal:

Was curious to see what RUSH LE prices were here and doesnt take long to realize most all the ads are flippers selling their new NIB Rush machines for profit, driving up costs and taking the machines out of the true pinball enthusiasts hands. I think that these ads should be taken down and members banned for a year. Ive been on pinside for quite a while and back in the day when new machines came out people were not flipping for profit, not to this degree anyway, they were flipping to have fun.
Pinball prices have been driving real pinball enthusiasts out of the hobby and these flippers for profit are a BIG part of the problem. IDK, am I alone thinking this???

I have my Rush LE I've been playing listed up for sale for $13000. I paid $13,500 after distributors marked up their price from Sterns MSRP price. I got many people sending me messages yelling at me and calling me names for "flipping" and such. If I wanted an LE, I had to pay what they were being sold for which many distributors took advantage of and marked up themselves since they dont have really any profit margin from STERN.

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