(Topic ID: 311084)

Flipping for Profit - Part of the problem in our hobby

By Animal

2 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 137 posts
  • 78 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Nethawk86
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Flipping NIB for profit is a problem in our hobby”

  • Agree 108 votes
    45%
  • Disagree 25 votes
    11%
  • You can't change the world Pal, don't even try!! 105 votes
    44%

(238 votes)

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There are 137 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
#1 2 years ago

Was curious to see what RUSH LE prices were here and doesnt take long to realize most all the ads are flippers selling their new NIB Rush machines for profit, driving up costs and taking the machines out of the true pinball enthusiasts hands. I think that these ads should be taken down and members banned for a year. Ive been on pinside for quite a while and back in the day when new machines came out people were not flipping for profit, not to this degree anyway, they were flipping to have fun.

Pinball prices have been driving real pinball enthusiasts out of the hobby and these flippers for profit are a BIG part of the problem. IDK, am I alone thinking this???

16
#2 2 years ago
Quoted from Animal:

I think that these ads should be taken down and members banned for a year. Ive been on pinside for quite a while and

You know you dont have to click on them, right?
Just move on
This is happening in every hobby, nothing you can do about it...who determines if the price is "too high"?

#3 2 years ago
Quoted from cosmokramer:

You know you dont have to click on them, right?
Just move on

Yeah, I know. I also know a bunch of guys who are Rush Fans (and Godzilla and TMT, etc fans) and are pinball enthusiasts, only to find they can't buy NIB and seeing these machines pop up here, kijiji and elsewhere for 2-3k+. Doesnt seem right...

18
#4 2 years ago

I don't see how you can ban someone for selling an item legally purchased and sold through a marketplace that is designed to buy and sell items. You may not like it but people are buying these machines from the flippers so who is the real problem, the seller or the buyer. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean people should be kicked out.

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from Monk:

I don't see how you can ban someone for selling an item legally purchased and sold through a marketplace that is designed to buy and sell items. You may not like it but people are buying these machines from the flippers so who is the real problem, the seller or the buyer. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean people should be kicked out.

Yeah, I guess, its just so flagrant and I believe not good for the hobby.

#6 2 years ago

I agree that it sucks if you want one of those games and didn’t get in on it early. Definitely sucks. But increased demand has caused all of my games to be worth way more than I bought them for. It works out great when I sell a game to fund something else.

#7 2 years ago

What if Stern sold LEs for 13,500? That's essentially what's happening. Then people would complain that the prices are so high, but in that case we'd be powerless to stop it.

I don't like to see games purchased for the sole reason to get flipped, but the market is what the market is. Some people are just playing the market game. I don't like it, but I also don't think it's ruining pinball. What I definitely hate is when those people get priority in before others who really want the game.

If as a distributor, some of my top buyers were those whose only purchased for the sole purpose of flipping, I would remove them from my list. That would curtail the flipping and would allow more people who actually want the game to be able to buy the game.

#8 2 years ago

I agree that if you want to buy an resell a game new or old is not a problem an more power to you if you want to take on that risk for profit.

However I believe to keep pinside market a fair place for all, stats or reports should be available for review. I suspect there’s some old time shilling of sorts going on where games are posted for a ridicules price then gets a sale pending immediately then same titles show up for a slightly lower price still inflated which now looks like a good deal lol…

#9 2 years ago

The free market economy dictates how this goes. Even if we don’t like it.

People were doing this with pinball 10 years ago… It was done with phones and lists and getting the word out on who had what. And making a quick few hundred on a flip. It is just easier w the internet.

Another hobby of mine is musical instruments…. It has been happening there for years.

I’ll admit… I have bought resold tickets for concerts to put myself in the front section. Hated to do it… but it was worth it to me!

20
#10 2 years ago
Quoted from Animal:

IDK, am I alone thinking this???

Yup. Nobody else has ever mentioned or brought up these issues before.

Bravo in taking this bold stand, and not being afraid to finally confront the pinball community with these issues. For the first time, somebody has had the courage to bring up things like "flipping games" and "high pinball prices." For the first time, a brave warrior of truth has brought to light this seedy underbelly of the hobby. It's painful, but it's necessary. We ALL have to look in the mirror!

When confronted with outside-the-box thinking like this, it's hard not to see a reckoning coming for not only the hobby, but Pinside itself!!! I'm pretty sure the people who run this site - and earn money when people sell pinball machines- will see the brilliance in banning people from selling pinball machines here. Who needs money when you are bringing paradigm-shifting change? Who needs to pay the bills, or their mortgages?

And really...a one-year ban for trying to sell a pinball machine? Why so soft? I'm thinking permanent vacation, or maybe even death, are more appropriate punishments for this crime against humanity.

You've given us all a lot to think about, and you may have just started a movement!

You may have just started A REVOLUTION!!!!!

#11 2 years ago

THE REVOLUTION WILL BE TELEVISED!

17
#12 2 years ago

LE's are the problem with the hobby, not the flippers. Buy a premium. Exact same game for less and anyone can buy one brand new same price.

18
#13 2 years ago

I blame the people who are paying these outrageous prices just as much as those selling.

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from Indusguys:

I blame the people who are paying these outrageous prices just as much as those selling.

We should ban all of those folks for a year also.

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Yup. Nobody else has ever mentioned or brought up these issues before.
Bravo in taking this bold stand, and not being afraid to finally confront the pinball community with these issues. For the first time, somebody has had the courage to bring up things like "flipping games" and "high pinball prices." For the first time, a brave warrior of truth has brought to light this seedy underbelly of the hobby. It's painful, but it's necessary. We ALL have to look in the mirror!
When confronted with outside-the-box thinking like this, it's hard not to see a reckoning coming for not only the hobby, but Pinside itself!!! I'm pretty sure the people who run this site - and earn money when people sell pinball machines- will see the brilliance in banning people from selling pinball machines here. Who needs money when you are bringing paradigm-shifting change? Who needs to pay the bills, or their mortgages?
And really...a one-year ban for trying to sell a pinball machine? Why so soft? I'm thinking permanent vacation, or maybe even death, are more appropriate punishments for this crime against humanity.
You've given us all a lot to think about, and you may have just started a movement!
You may have just started A REVOLUTION!!!!!

7A1BE0D3-8C42-4A9E-9E76-BF7849C76BD9.gif7A1BE0D3-8C42-4A9E-9E76-BF7849C76BD9.gif
#16 2 years ago
Quoted from Animal:

Yeah, I know. I also know a bunch of guys who are Rush Fans (and Godzilla and TMT, etc fans) and are pinball enthusiasts, only to find they can't buy NIB and seeing these machines pop up here, kijiji and elsewhere for 2-3k+. Doesnt seem right...

So if they're fans and buy a game and don't like it....is it OK for THEM to sell for a profit? We need oxygen, water and food to survive (we don't have to have the latest pinball machine that's overpriced).

#17 2 years ago

i lucked out on a Stranger Things LE new in the box for retail. are you telling me that i'm part of the problem if someone wants to pay twenty grand for it?

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from SonOfaDiddly:

i lucked out on a Stranger Things LE new in the box for retail. are you telling me that i'm part of the problem if someone wants to pay twenty grand for it?

I imagine you’ve had it and played it for years, nope. Back then distros couldn’t even get rid of all the LEs. Sell it for what it’s worth, it’s gonna cost you probably more than twenty grand to pick it up again in the future.

The pain point for everybody is they want to have the luxury to pay 12k retail for a mirrored backglass and some powder coating and now they have to pay 15k to a flipper for a mirrored backglass and some powder coating. IDK pinball people are weird.

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from Animal:

flippers for profit are a BIG part of the problem.

What you're really railing against is capitalism on a small scale. It's not a new complaint and it's still valid for people who actually want to buy AND USE the thing. Economists call it rent seeking behavior - https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/economics/rent-seeking/
It's been happening with concert tickets (and other entertainment) for decades. Larger scale flippers used to hire people to stand in line at the box office.
The new hot toy at every holiday season.
The housing market- even worse there because in some cases the "flipper" is a corporate entity that just rents the place out and a real homeowner is 'permanently' priced out of the market.

One might argue that in the US this is a feature, not a bug. Part of the price of freedom. It's certainly annoying if you're the one who wants the thing for your own personal enjoyment.

I think there is a conversation to be had about what's acceptable and what isn't. Personally I'd favor some restrictions on large scale flippers but as pointed out earlier it's really no different to the end user if the flipper sells it to them at a 50% mark-up or the manufacturer raises the price to that level themselves. And the practicality of defining "large scale" would also be a challenge.

#20 2 years ago

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Why so soft? I'm thinking permanent vacation, or maybe even death,

Oh man, that had me laughing hard.

Here's a thought: stop buying games all together. No new games, no used games, just enjoy what you have already you GREEDY fucks. Then prices will go down.

#22 2 years ago
Quoted from Animal:

Pinball prices have been driving real pinball enthusiasts out of the hobby and these flippers for profit are a BIG part of the problem. IDK, am I alone thinking this???

Jesus.. how many people need to post the same bitch and moan pricing threads.

"real pinball enthusiasts" ? thats some funny shit.

Thats a pretty snobby attitude like you somehow deserve your luxury item/toy more than anyone else..

Any pinball machine is expensive by any sane persons standards and no one is forcing anyone to buy anything,

grow up. Its a fucking toy and the evil "rich people" ruining everything for you are actually the target market.

#23 2 years ago

This evil practice can be pinpointed back to a singular incident - the advent and subsequent rise of the topper.

#24 2 years ago
Quoted from Friengineer:

Oh man, that had me laughing hard.
Here's a thought: stop buying games all together. No new games, no used games, just enjoy what you have already you GREEDY fucks. Then prices will go down.

yah this... ^^^^

I did. I can "afford" to buy them I just don't think they are worth it.

Same reason I don't own a 100K car

#25 2 years ago

It sucks, but it's nothing new. Before the NIB-NEWB days, we'd all be scouring Craigslist all day long...and when a cheap pin popped up, you had to get there first, because sometimes the flippers were LITERALLY driving at full speed past you to get there first and poach your deal, only to put it back up on CL the next day for 3x the price after wiping it down with windex.

It is what it is. If you really want a LE, figure out a way to "get there first". Good news is, they can order a Premium. Unlimited production & it's the same exact game.

#26 2 years ago

Pinball is both a business and hobbie to different folks so cant stay in business without profit . Hobbiest exspect to lose money .

#27 2 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

What you're really railing against is capitalism on a small scale. It's not a new complaint and it's still valid for people who actually want to buy AND USE the thing. Economists call it rent seeking behavior - https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/economics/rent-seeking/
It's been happening with concert tickets (and other entertainment) for decades. Larger scale flippers used to hire people to stand in line at the box office.
The new hot toy at every holiday season.
The housing market- even worse there because in some cases the "flipper" is a corporate entity that just rents the place out and a real homeowner is 'permanently' priced out of the market.
One might argue that in the US this is a feature, not a bug. Part of the price of freedom. It's certainly annoying if you're the one who wants the thing for your own personal enjoyment.
I think there is a conversation to be had about what's acceptable and what isn't. Personally I'd favor some restrictions on large scale flippers but as pointed out earlier it's really no different to the end user if the flipper sells it to them at a 50% mark-up or the manufacturer raises the price to that level themselves. And the practicality of defining "large scale" would also be a challenge.

Great response...I know...but it just sucks. In the eights I was in line all night for Genesis concert tickets, From 12PM to 8AM it was a party, then the scalpers and their bitches came, made life miserable and made their way to the front of the line, then around 9:30AM a few polices showed up (again), but this time we started bitching and singling out the scalpers, the police pulled them out of the line... Didnt get them all, but it sure felt good heckling and jeering the bastards...

I know, Capitalism, yada yada yada - still f'in sucks as I had my request into my distributor a week before the announcement and was told sold out only to find LE's being flipped here. I hope the early bad reviews leave them stuck with 'em...

#28 2 years ago
Quoted from Animal:

I hope the early bad reviews leave them stuck with 'em...

I would doubt it.

One just went up for sale in the northeast for sale thread if you want to try and grab that one. Actually it looks like 3 of them are for sale right now in the northeast. Supply is up and demand must be down!! Get after it!!

#29 2 years ago

I kind of like it and it encourages me to get deeper into the games I own, instead of constantly buying selling and upgrading, hell I don't know when the last time I looked at Craigslist for a game was. There's so many new people that conventional avenues to get games are a waste of time.

It's kind of a blessing really.

#30 2 years ago

don't buy. I haven't bought a used game in almost 2 years. There are a few BW games I'd like to have back, but am not going to chase prices and am pretty happy with what I have. I have a couple of LE's, but I'm not really an LE buyer, happy with a pro or a premium.

#31 2 years ago

So the goal is to get on the distributor list for a new release so you can flip the game at a profit. I wonder how many people are paying a kickback to the distributor to get on the list.

#32 2 years ago
Quoted from 7oxford:

So the goal is to get on the distributor list for a new release so you can flip the game at a profit. I wonder how many people are paying a kickback to the distributor to get on the list.

I'm sure that goes on but not much you can do about it. Buy a premium and make it your own LE by customizing it instead of obsessing about something you can't control, that's the answer to those that think complaining will do anything.

13
#33 2 years ago
Quoted from Animal:

Pinball prices have been driving real pinball enthusiasts out of the hobby

Not one. I'd still be in this hobby if I only had my very first game still (oh, yeah, I still miss EK).

If I was a pinball enthusiast, I could get into this hobby right now. Could I get the latest greatest games? Nope. But I'm a pinball enthusiast, so I can just go buy an SS or an EM and play some damn pinball. Could I get a great game for less than 2k? Absolutely. Would I invite friends over to play it? Yup. Would I have pizza and beer? Of course I would. It would be a pinball party.

And I'll also say the opposite. If someone invited me to their house for pizza and play on some shitty EM would I go? Of course I would, and I'm quite sure we would have a blast.

Don't be so privileged. You don't need an 8000 dollar pro Stern to have fun as a pinball enthusiast. There has been a 1600 dollar Gorgar in the marketplace for days. If I didn't have too many damn games already I'd have gone and visited Colsond3 (nice guy btw) to grab that (12 hour round trip for fun).

Just my opinion. I don't like flippers either... but now at these prices almost everyone is a flipper. If you don't like the new prices... don't buy.

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

Not one. I'd still be in this hobby if I only had my very first game still (oh, yeah, I still miss EK).
If I was a pinball enthusiast, I could get into this hobby right now. Could I get the latest greatest games? Nope. But I'm a pinball enthusiast, so I can just go buy an SS or an EM and play some damn pinball. Could I get a great game for less than 2k? Absolutely. Would I invite friends over to play it? Yup. Would I have pizza and beer? Of course I would. It would be a pinball party.
And I'll also say the opposite. If someone invited me to their house for pizza and play on some shitty EM would I go? Of course I would, and I'm quite sure we would have a blast.
Don't be so privileged. You don't need an 8000 dollar pro Stern to have fun as a pinball enthusiast. There has been a 1600 dollar Gorgar in the marketplace for days. If I didn't have too many damn games already I'd have gone and visited Colsond3 (nice guy btw) to grab that (12 hour round trip for fun).
Just my opinion. I don't like flippers either... but now at these prices almost everyone is a flipper. If you don't like the new prices... don't buy.

It's ALWAYS been like this.

In the old RGP days 15+ years ago, we'd have a noob come in once a month with post about how "I'm new to the hobby and I want the most popular, expensive game in the hobby, MM, and it's way too expensive!!! THis is a hobby for rich people?!?!?!?!?!"

They were complaining about a $4,000 MM by the way. Just couldn't lower themselves into buying a $900 Doctor Who or NBA Fastbreak.

#35 2 years ago
Quoted from Animal:

Yeah, I know. I also know a bunch of guys who are Rush Fans (and Godzilla and TMT, etc fans) and are pinball enthusiasts, only to find they can't buy NIB and seeing these machines pop up here, kijiji and elsewhere for 2-3k+. Doesnt seem right...

They make premiums of all those models.

#36 2 years ago

it will all change when super hyperinflation hits and causes a massive recession then you might be able to trade a machine for food

#37 2 years ago

I got no problem when its LEs

#38 2 years ago
Quoted from the9gman:

it will all change when super hyperinflation hits and causes a massive recession

According to a very loud group of people here, that has already been going on for precisely 13 months.

Yet...here we are!

#39 2 years ago
Quoted from the9gman:

it will all change when super hyperinflation hits and causes a massive recession then you might be able to trade a machine for food

Right - cuz recessions always make rich people with pinball machines immediately broke & liquidate their collections.

Unless…was your post was sarcasm?

#40 2 years ago

Ban these gambling machines!

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#41 2 years ago

The real problem is with the buyers who are willing to pay these exorbitant prices. At some point these buyers will be satisfied with what they have and the available buyers who will pay these inflated prices will decrease. Prices will begin to fall for pinball machines over the next few years. EM pinball prices are becoming soft again, so the other eras of pinball machines will follow this price drop in the near future.

#42 2 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

Not one. I'd still be in this hobby if I only had my very first game still (oh, yeah, I still miss EK).
If I was a pinball enthusiast, I could get into this hobby right now. Could I get the latest greatest games? Nope. But I'm a pinball enthusiast, so I can just go buy an SS or an EM and play some damn pinball. Could I get a great game for less than 2k? Absolutely. Would I invite friends over to play it? Yup. Would I have pizza and beer? Of course I would. It would be a pinball party.
And I'll also say the opposite. If someone invited me to their house for pizza and play on some shitty EM would I go? Of course I would, and I'm quite sure we would have a blast.
Don't be so privileged. You don't need an 8000 dollar pro Stern to have fun as a pinball enthusiast. There has been a 1600 dollar Gorgar in the marketplace for days. If I didn't have too many damn games already I'd have gone and visited Colsond3 (nice guy btw) to grab that (12 hour round trip for fun).
Just my opinion. I don't like flippers either... but now at these prices almost everyone is a flipper. If you don't like the new prices... don't buy.

My 1st game was an $800 F-14. I ballooned to 6 games, sold them all to afford a NIB GoT pre. I sold that in feb 2020 for reasons, with the plan to get an AFM for my B-day a couple months later. ……in march Covid hit, I lost my job, etc. now I have an Arcade1up AFM that I paid $800 for, because I doubt there are any sub-2k games in the province; and I’m including shitty EM’s.

My friends and I have a blast, but it’s far from real pinball, and I’m far from being in a spot to justify the prices right now.

I think it’s shitty for people to flip games, I’ve added value to each of my previous games before selling it, and never made a profit off of any of them. This selling a recent NIB game for profit just because you can, isn’t cool with me.

But you do you
E5F64455-239A-4900-BB4D-DFC4745DB9EF (resized).pngE5F64455-239A-4900-BB4D-DFC4745DB9EF (resized).png

#43 2 years ago

1)I’m not a LE buyer and just stick to premiums but what do the distributors charge to get “ on the list” for LE’s or Premiums that HAVEN'T even been announced yet? $1000, more?

2) If that specific title isn’t announced are you allowed to roll the deposit onto a different LE?

3)Do the distributors only take deposits for specific titles or can you say put me down for whatever LE is next?

4)What’s the last LE title released that didn’t immediately sell out? WWF?

#44 2 years ago
Quoted from ultimategameroom:

4)What’s the last LE title released that didn’t immediately sell out? WWF?

Stranger Things.

#45 2 years ago

I wonder what the pain threshold of the flippers would be if Stern would double the price of LE’s?

#46 2 years ago

I think the problem with games here in Canada is that we only have 2 distros. The LE allotment for Canada is often less than 2% of the total run. JPLE for example. Only 8 in Canada IIRC. CCrLE is around 20 out of 1250. That’s not a lot for a country this size! The USA population is 4 times the Canadians. Imagine if only 80 CCrLEs had been alloted to the US. Or 32 JPLE.

Personally I don’t care about the LE status thing. The previous pricing from Stern made the LE worth it for the extras. When I bought JPLE it was because it had the accessories I wanted(shaker, pinblades, side armor, backglass, upgraded speakers, and powdercoating). It would have cost more to upgrade a premium - at that time. This is no longer the case now with the new pricing scheme.

#47 2 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

At some point these buyers will be satisfied with what they have and the available buyers who will pay these inflated prices will decrease.

Nope. Because another new game will be coming out. Then THAT game will be the one to have.

#48 2 years ago

Has nothing to do with flippers. Has everything to do with all the free money floating around. I sold my GBLE 4 years ago for $7500. People are selling them for $15 to $20k today. Blame the government, not flippers.

#49 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

We should ban all of those folks for a year also.

I believe we should all be banned for a year, just for being pinball addicts.

#50 2 years ago

In all, the industry needs 30 more pinball manufactures to help saturate
the market with hundreds/thousands of pinballs.
In that way, every one can get a pinball game at an affordable price.

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