(Topic ID: 106282)

Flippers waaaaay too strong after rebuild - LOTR - Also travel too far up

By NightTrain

9 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

image-306.jpg
image-344.jpg
image-439.jpg
image-34.jpg
20141015_210438.jpg
#1 9 years ago

So the flippers in my LOTR were travling too far up (coil stops and plungers worn). They had plenty of power still, but I decided to rebuild them so they wouldn't travel up so far (they still travel further up than I think they should, it's a little better though, WTF?).

Anyhow, I bought a kit from PBL and installed them. Holy freaking smokes. These things are way too powerful now! The ball flies off the left ramp. I feel like I'm going to break off Balrogs crotch! It almost feels unsafe to play the game now. I feel like I'm going to destroy everything!

Here are a few things I did to try and help this problem out.
1. I changed the coil pulse power adjustment to soft....didn't really notice a change.
2. I pitched the game up to 7.3ish degrees to try and deal with it. That helped slightly, but now the damn game is too fast.
3. I put a couple of washers under the left ramp which helped a little bit too. I still get a ball that flies off of there and goes into the shire every 5-6 times.
4. I went into the adjustment menu and changed: adjustment #53 to 10 milliseconds, #54 to 40 milliseconds. #55 to 0. Not sure I really noticed and change after this...

Here's a few things I'm thinking....
-I almost want to remove the new coil plungers and scuff them up a little bit with some sand paper to slow them down. Would that be dumb?
-The game has flipper coils p/n 090-5032-20T installed (updated coils) on both the left and right flipper. Should I buy less powerful coils?

I also went into the switch test to make sure the I soldered the EOS switches in good enough (they look great, I'm fully capable of soldering, just wanted to double check my work). They don't register in the switch test mode...but neither do the flipper switches and those clearly work. Maybe they don't show up in that test mode?

I'm just throwing all the information I have out there. Does anyone have any suggestions or insight on this issue? I really don't want to have to leave the pitch so high to compensate for crazy strong flippers. I like LOTR because it's a bit slower to play and that is nice sometimes. But at 7.3 degrees and these flippers....whoa! It's like playing Ironman.

Also. The flippers still travel up higher than I think they should. Comparing these to my other STERN games, they come up way further. I can let a ball come off of either ramp and just hold up the flipper and the ball will not roll past the tip of the flipper...makes it a bit too easy...

#2 9 years ago

I put the stronger LOTR flipper coils in my IM when I still had it and it was extreme!

#3 9 years ago

I would say put on a weaker coil . If those are the upgraded LOTR coils take them off sell them and buy ones that are not as strong .

#4 9 years ago

You will notice over time the velocity will get toned down. If it still bothers you, go back to the stock coils rather than the upgraded ones. I had only minimal luck reducing strength using the coil settings menus.

#5 9 years ago

"I feel like I'm going to break off Balrog's crotch!"

#6 9 years ago

Omfg undo #3. You most likely have "upgraded" coils because the previous owner was too dumb to rebuild the flippers and instead got the stronger coils. Put the stock coils back on and enjoy the game.

#7 9 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Omfg undo #3. You most likely have "upgraded" coils because the previous owner was too dumb to rebuild the flippers and instead got the stronger coils. Put the stock coils back on and enjoy the game.

Ok will do. Any idea what the original coils p/n was for this game? The manual shows the upgrade ones 090-5032-20T. So I'm not sure what the original coil was...

#8 9 years ago
Quoted from NightTrain:

2. I pitched the game up to 7.3ish degrees to try and deal with it. That helped slightly, but now the damn game is too fast.

No such thing.

#9 9 years ago

These are listed under the game on Marco

http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/090-5032-00

#10 9 years ago

bumping this one up.

Anybody know what the original flipper coil P/N is?

Anyone know if LOTR flippers travel up higher a bit more than other Sterns? If not, what the hell could cause that?

#11 9 years ago

The flipper travel will be the same as all other sterns. It may look higher pitched if say the inlanes are slightly higher pitched. If you have new coil stops and new plunger mechs then the flipper will be moving the expected amount. The flipper coil part numbers are listed in the manual.

#12 9 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

The flipper coil part numbers are listed in the manual.

Thanks for your reply Markmon. The flipper coil P/Ns in the manual are the same ones I have. They are the upgraded coils. Stern must have updated the manual at one point.

#13 9 years ago

Heres a pic of the original.
090-5020-20T

I dont think you have the right upgraded coils. I got mine from pinball life and they have the same number as the original coils, but they are noticeably larger.

I upgraded mine and really like them. They dont tire like the original ones.

20141015_210438.jpg20141015_210438.jpg

#14 9 years ago
Quoted from NightTrain:

-I almost want to remove the new coil plungers and scuff them up a little bit with some sand paper to slow them down. Would that be dumb?

Never do that. This game plays insanely strong when new or rebuilt. It settles down over time. Most games are like this.

#15 9 years ago
Quoted from Lermods:

Heres a pic of the original.
090-5020-20T
I dont think you have the right upgraded coils. I got mine from pinball life and they have the same number as the original coils, but they are noticeably larger.
I upgraded mine and really like them. They dont tire like the original ones.

20141015_210438.jpg 289 KB

I see. Would have been nice if the part number changed. I have nothing to compare mine to. Could you measure both of your coils? The original and the upgrade? Then I could figure out which one I have.

Quoted from Atomicboy:

Never do that. This game plays insanely strong when new or rebuilt. It settles down over time. Most games are like this.

Ok got it. I will just play the piss out of it and wear them in.

#16 9 years ago

I think there's a coil strength/voltage adjustment somewhere in the menus. Might try putting that at low. Also I you think the flippers are too high, maybe they should be adjusted lower. Post some pics of them in the up and down positions. The little pins/divots in the playfield should be where the flippers rest when down. I do remember it being pretty easy to catch the ball on LOTR though so it could be normal.

#17 9 years ago
Quoted from tjc02002:

I think there's a coil strength/voltage adjustment somewhere in the menus. Might try putting that at low. Also I you think the flippers are too high, maybe they should be adjusted lower. Post some pics of them in the up and down positions. The little pins/divots in the playfield should be where the flippers rest when down. I do remember it being pretty easy to catch the ball on LOTR though so it could be normal.

I dropped that setting to low. Didn't do a whole lot with the flippers. I do notice the trough kick out does not kick as hard, which I actually kind of like.

I'll take some pics of the flippers. They are set dead on with the pins. I'm super anal about getting the flippers set right. I don't think I've bough a single game that I haven't adjust the flippers on it. So I know they are set right, I just feel like the come up too high. Maybe it's normal. I played a LOTR LE the other day and they didn't come up as high....But I've got to think it's normal, they are rebuilt and everything.

I'll snap some pics tonight to show you guys what I'm talking about.

#18 9 years ago

Invite your 3 year old son/daughter/niece/nephew over to play LOTR for one hour. After that, your flippers will be broken in and a suitable strength

#19 9 years ago
Quoted from gutz:

Invite your 3 year old son/daughter/niece/nephew over to play LOTR for one hour. After that, your flippers will be broken in and a suitable strength

LOL! That is so true. My nephew and god daughter just sit there and bash the flippers when they play. Makes me squirm....but they have fun!

#20 9 years ago

Make sure you have the right coils. People unnecessarily "upgrade" coils on LoTR because they don't know how to rebuild flippers. A flipper rebuild will play like new got a good thousand games. It does not wear down in a short time. In a home, it will probably never wear down. All my games play the same as when I out then into my home.

#21 9 years ago

So the flipper power feels normal now. After breaking them in, they feel awesome.

Here are a few pics of my flippers. Do they travel too far up? Or do they look good? They just seem to travel up a bit further than my other games. I would have to assume this is what they should do since all parts are new and aligned properly.

image-34.jpgimage-34.jpg

image-439.jpgimage-439.jpg

image-344.jpgimage-344.jpg image-306.jpgimage-306.jpg
#22 9 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Omfg undo #3. You most likely have "upgraded" coils because the previous owner was too dumb to rebuild the flippers and instead got the stronger coils. Put the stock coils back on and enjoy the game.

"Too dumb"? Okay, smart guy...I upgraded my coils after fewer than 100 plays out of the box, because I got tired of people coming over and complaining that after an hour of play, the ring shot was impossible to make. If I put my original coils back in, what would prevent that problem from coming back? It's a sincere question, because I'd like to be able to make the Gimli shot, and the ball flies over it now.

Piniteration, FWIW I've had the upgraded coils for at least 8 years, and there's no sign of wear at the Shire or Gimli saucer (and with no protectors). I wax the game every 200 plays.

#23 9 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

The flipper travel will be the same as all other sterns. It may look higher pitched if say the inlanes are slightly higher pitched. If you have new coil stops and new plunger mechs then the flipper will be moving the expected amount. The flipper coil part numbers are listed in the manual.

We've been over this, but I'll try one more time. The problem of flipper fade was so bad on LOTR Stern admitted the problem in a service bulletin.

Symptom:

Flippers feel weaker after extreme amount of usage

Explanation:

After long playtime on LOTR, some players notice the flippers feel weaker. This game utilizes very strong flipper coils on the flipper assemblies which after extensive play can heat up and feel weak.

http://www.sternpinball.com/upload/downloads/sb151.pdf

The fix didn't work. The larger Pinball Life coils do work. Fading flippers are extremely common on LOTR location games. Try one near you and you'll see. Then check the software version to see that the service bulletin didn't work.

#24 9 years ago
Quoted from swampfire:

"Too dumb"? Okay, smart guy...I upgraded my coils after fewer than 100 plays out of the box, because I got tired of people coming over and complaining that after an hour of play, the ring shot was impossible to make. If I put my original coils back in, what would prevent that problem from coming back? It's a sincere question, because I'd like to be able to make the Gimli shot, and the ball flies over it now.
Piniteration, FWIW I've had the upgraded coils for at least 8 years, and there's no sign of wear at the Shire or Gimli saucer (and with no protectors). I wax the game every 200 plays.

Not all games are the same. The game you have sounds like it plays fine with the upgraded coils. The OP's game does not. The previous owner likely had the game and rather than rebuilding the flippers just read that he should buy upgraded coils and did.

Quoted from phishrace:

We've been over this, but I'll try one more time. The problem of flipper fade was so bad on LOTR Stern admitted the problem in a service bulletin.
Symptom:
Flippers feel weaker after extreme amount of usage
Explanation:
After long playtime on LOTR, some players notice the flippers feel weaker. This game utilizes very strong flipper coils on the flipper assemblies which after extensive play can heat up and feel weak.
http://www.sternpinball.com/upload/downloads/sb151.pdf
The fix didn't work. The larger Pinball Life coils do work. Fading flippers are extremely common on LOTR location games. Try one near you and you'll see. Then check the software version to see that the service bulletin didn't work.

Unfortunately, "going over this multiple times" doesn't really address it. The problem of flipper fade is not well solved by upgrading the coil strength. By doing that, you take coils that are too strong, put them in. Now you start the game and the coils are way too strong. They'll fade after an hour to being about right. Great, but then you have to play a while with them too strong. If the flippers are fading after an hour because they are too hot, then I would suggest active cooling. I put active cooling ($10 in parts) on my first ACDC premium (new one doesnt need it).

#25 9 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

The problem of flipper fade is not well solved by upgrading the coil strength. By doing that, you take coils that are too strong, put them in. Now you start the game and the coils are way too strong. They'll fade after an hour to being about right. Great, but then you have to play a while with them too strong. If the flippers are fading after an hour because they are too hot, then I would suggest active cooling. I put active cooling ($10 in parts) on my first ACDC premium (new one doesnt need it).

This describes my game pretty well - too strong, fading to just right after about an hour. I've put heat sinks on the original coils before (passive cooling), and that helped some. What parts did you use for active cooling?

#26 9 years ago

I imagine seeing a radiator mounted on back for some water cooling rig.

#27 9 years ago

Nothing ridiculous. Active cooling can be achieve with a cheap pc 12v fan tie strapped to the wires under the flipper coils blowing onto the flipper coils. A 120mm fan will do the job nicely. I grabbed power by the aux plug to the right of the coindoor.

#28 9 years ago

I tried the heat sinks, they helped a bit, but still need to install the fans I bought. I agree the upgraded coils are too strong, then fade with the heatsinks even to just a tad below what they feel like they should be.

1 week later
#29 9 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Nothing ridiculous. Active cooling can be achieve with a cheap pc 12v fan tie strapped to the wires under the flipper coils blowing onto the flipper coils. A 120mm fan will do the job nicely. I grabbed power by the aux plug to the right of the coindoor.

Markmon, can you please post some pics of your active cooling mod? Both of the "cheap pc 12v [120mm] fan tie strapped to the wires under the flipper coils" and the wiring connection to the "aux plug to the right of the coindoor" for power? Thanks in advance for your help.

#30 9 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Markmon, can you please post some pics of your active cooling mod? Both of the "cheap pc 12v [120mm] fan tie strapped to the wires under the flipper coils" and the wiring connection to the "aux plug to the right of the coindoor" for power? Thanks in advance for your help.

Sorry I do not own the games where these were installed any longer.

#31 9 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Sorry I do not own the games where these were installed any longer.

OK, thanks. Can you at least clarify when you say "aux plug to the right of the coindoor", do you mean on the right hand side of the pinball machine (i.e., under the right flipper button), or to the right of the coin door when opened (i.e., one of the coin door switches, which is under the left flipper button)?

#32 9 years ago

Right of the coin door when open. 3 pin female connector. Outside pins are switched 12 volts DC.

You can use 'plumber's tape' strapping to mount the fans. Cover the strapping with electrical tape so it doesn't become a potential giant short. Use 1/2" wood screws to mount the fan (strapping) to the playfield. Use longer strapping as needed to correctly position the fans over the coils, but use as little as possible. Once mounted, they should be slightly adjustable as the strapping is easily bent.

#33 9 years ago

Thanks, phishrace. I've got two spare 120mm fans, and I'm planning to experiment a little to see if I can get a decent setup that works to keep the flipper coils cool.

If I mount the fans underneath the playfield, I'll need to run the wiring down the playfield wiring harness to the back of the machine so the playfield can still be raised for maintenance. Otherwise, I could try to mount the fans to fixed positions in the bottom of the cab so they don't move when the playfield is raised. I'd probably have to have them mounted at an angle to avoid interference with the playfield support slide brackets when the playfield is lowered.

Is there another convenient spot for 12V DC somewhere in the backbox? That might be simpler than having to run back down the bottom of the cab to the aux plug near the coindoor.

1 month later
#34 9 years ago
Quoted from NightTrain:

So the flippers in my LOTR were travling too far up (coil stops and plungers worn). They had plenty of power still, but I decided to rebuild them so they wouldn't travel up so far (they still travel further up than I think they should, it's a little better though, WTF?).
Anyhow, I bought a kit from PBL and installed them. Holy freaking smokes. These things are way too powerful now! The ball flies off the left ramp. I feel like I'm going to break off Balrogs crotch! It almost feels unsafe to play the game now. I feel like I'm going to destroy everything!.

Well your in luck my friend! When LOTR VE comes out you can sell your old LOTR and upgrade to the VE gunna be sweet! (I can't wait)

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
From: $ 40.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
RamMods
 
$ 12.00
Cabinet - Decals
Pinball Haus
 
$ 50.00
Playfield - Protection
Duke Pinball
 
$ 200.00
Lighting - Interactive
Professor Pinball
 
$ 45.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
9,500
Machine - For Sale
Anderson, SC
From: $ 99.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
RGP Models
 
$ 5.00
Cabinet - Other
Pinball Fuzz
 
From: $ 93.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
PinWorlds
 
$ 12.95
$ 259.99
Cabinet - Toppers
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
10,000 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Deer Park, NY
$ 29.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Photos LLC
 
$ 30.00
Cabinet - Other
Rocket City Pinball
 
$ 18.95
From: $ 99.99
Cabinet - Other
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
$ 12.99
Lighting - Led
Mitchell Lighting
 
$ 79.99
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
PinGraffix Pinside Shop
 
$ 41.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lermods
 
From: $ 33.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Rocket City Pinball
 
9,000 (Firm)
Machine - For Sale
Ronkonkoma, NY
$ 39.50
10,400 (Firm)
Machine - For Sale
Juneau, WI
$ 130.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Dijohn
 
$ 130.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Dijohn
 
$ 35.00
Cabinet - Decals
Pinball Haus
 
$ 8.99
Lighting - Led
Mitchell Lighting
 
From: $ 109.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
PinWorlds
 
Hey modders!
Your shop name here

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/flippers-waaaaay-too-strong-after-rebuild-lotr and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.