Flipper Strength Not What It Should Be

Hi there

I rebuilt the flippers on my High Speed (early model without the capacitors on the flippers). Replaced links, plungers, springs, sleeves, bushings, coil stops, EOS switches (tungsten HV), and the rubber butt piece the pawl sits on. Basically everything but the coils and plates. Coils measured (2.7 ohms) while still in circuit. Resoldered wires on all lugs. Used tool for proper spacing between flippers and bushings. Adjusted EOS (double leaf) switches to 1/8". Playfield pitch is at 6.2 degrees.
Both the upper flipper and lower left flipper are continuously strong. And although the LOWER right flipper starts off strong, after about 20 minutes I find that it doesn't make the loop with the speed it had at the start of turning on the machine. The shot is still makeable but is harder then it should be and not as fast. After watching the Papa tutorial and seeing the speed of there high speed I'm not satisfied with the current performance.
I have not made any transition to the newer flipper style (springs, parallel coils, capacitors) as my current coils still seemed to be in working order. Any ideas on how to get the max out of these flippers (especially LOWER right) would be great. I realize the left loop shot is a long shot.

Thanks
Blake

#2 5 years ago

JSG

Thor-NL

Pinside member

Breda

11y 97,650 2,289 8

When they are getting weaker, is the coil hot? (Compare with the other coil)

#3 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Quoted from Thor-NL:
When they are getting weaker, is the coil hot? (Compare with the other coil)

all coils seem hot but do not burn you (can hold onto them indefinitely)

thanks
Blake

#4 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

I do have a new coil I could replace with on the lower right and see if there is any difference.

thanks
Blake

#5 5 years ago

ZAC

zacaj

Once it gets weak, try jumpering your EOS shut and see if it gets strong again.

#6 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Quoted from zacaj:
Once it gets weak, try jumpering your EOS shut and see if it gets strong again.

will try that tonight. That would imply improper spacing on the EOS switch correct?

Thanks
Blake

#7 5 years ago

ZAC

zacaj

OP
Quoted from Blake:
will try that tonight. That would imply improper spacing on the EOS switch correct?
Thanks
Blake

Improper spacing or a bad EOS. I've had EOS where the current was actually melting the defective surface of the EOS slightly and making them weak. Could probably be other weird issues too, but the important thing is to rule out any EOS problems.

#8 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Quoted from zacaj:
Improper spacing or a bad EOS. I've had EOS where the current was actually melting the defective surface of the EOS slightly and making them weak. Could probably be other weird issues too, but the important thing is to rule out any EOS problems.

cool ill report back tonight. how long can you play with it closed before causing other issues like coil overheating and transistors blowing?
Thanks
Blake

#9 5 years ago

ZAC

zacaj

OP
Quoted from Blake:
cool ill report back tonight. how long can you play with it closed before causing other issues like coil overheating and transistors blowing?
Thanks
Blake

As long as you don't hold the flipper up it should be safe, but I wouldn't hold the flipper up for more than a few seconds. No transistors to worry about here, you'll pretty much just melt your coil if you hold up the flipper too much with the EOS bypassed.

#10 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Quoted from zacaj:
As long as you don't hold the flipper up it should be safe, but I wouldn't hold the flipper up for more than a few seconds. No transistors to worry about here, you'll pretty much just melt your coil if you hold up the flipper too much with the EOS bypassed.

very good.

Thanks
Blake

#11 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

so i played for about 25 min, noticed a small amount of die down in power. i can see a some burn marks already on the EOS switches with the LOWER right having the most.
i then clipped the EOS switch together and within 30 sec the flipper PS fuse blew. i was not cradling the ball either.

thanks
Blake

#12 5 years ago

AMB

AMBoggs

Pinside+ Frequent

10y 52,950 344

Is there a chance that you soldered the lugs back wrong? As in now the smaller coil is making it fire and the larger coil is holding the flipper up.

#13 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Quoted from AMBoggs:
Is there a chance that you soldered the lugs back wrong? As in now the smaller coil is making it fire and the larger coil is holding the flipper up.

nope did them one wire at a time. and took pics.

thanks
Blake

#14 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

it could be me just wanting to much from 30 year old technology but after watching that papa vid i know mine is not top notch.
i think ill switch the coil to test.
thanks
Blake

#15 5 years ago

JAH

PoBoyPinball

Pinside member

8y 108K 1,472

I would still look at your EOS adjustments I burnt up a brand new coil on a cyclone once by getting it wrong. It’s been a long time but I think I had it opening to late and not enough same symptoms as yours flipper would get week with play. Coil was getting hot and eventually f-d it up.

#16 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Quoted from PoBoyPinball:
I would still look at your EOS adjustments I burnt up a brand new coil on a cyclone once by getting it wrong. It’s been a long time but I think I had it opening to late and not enough same symptoms as yours flipper would get week with play. Coil was getting hot and eventually f-d it up.

ill check it again to make sure. i really need that tool. ive got to place an order soon so ill grab one at the same time.
thanks
Blake

#17 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

i cut out a perfect measuring device and im pretty damn close to 1/8". tomorrow ill replace the coil.
thanks
Blake

#18 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Replaced the coil and don't notice a change. I'm pretty disappointed in all the flipper powers now lol. I think ive messed around with the EOS switches to the point where they are worse off from what the old ones were. The only thing i have not replaced is the flipper button switches on the cab. Could that make that much of a difference. I get glimpses of powerful flippers but its vary inconsistent. Is there any correlation that could be made between the flipper fuse blowing within 30 seconds of playing with the EOS switch closed and the weak flippers? My last few flipper rebuilds have made a drastic and immediately noticeable difference.

Open to ideas??

Thanks
Blake

#19 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

so i did some very isolated testing and have found a couple things. First my spinners need major adjusting as they decrease the ball speed dramatically and on a regular basis cause the ball to come to an abrupt stop. 2- Taking those spinners out of the equation by propping them up, its very noticeable that the LOWER right is much weaker then the lower left. Both make the loop but the left makes it with ease and screams it around the playfield while the right barely makes it and when you add back in the spinners its no wonder it doesnt make it often.

on a side note i jumpered the EOS switch on the LOWER right flipper closed again with no blowing (this is after installing the new coil so i wonder if the old one was restricting it enough to pop the fuse?) of fuse but no difference in power either. Pics coming of EOS switch.

Thanks
Blake

#20 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

pics of the LOWER right coil and EOS.
I know my coil lugs should be mounted away from the coil stop. just havent taken the time to get out the rat tail file.
thanks
Blake

20180707_215152 (resized).jpg

20180707_215206 (resized).jpg

20180707_215223 (resized).jpg

20180707_215235 (resized).jpg

20180707_215251 (resized).jpg

#21 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

are there voltages i can test for at the switch? what should they be?
also the button switches value?
values at the flipper power supply board?
im going to look for poor solder joints and any corrosion at the fuse clips that may be increasing resistance.

thanks
Blake

#22 5 years ago

TPR

frunch

Pinside member

Point Pleasant, NJ

11y 135K 3,637 10

Definitely file the eos switches and cabinet switches. Worn out cabinet switches can also contribute to this problem, so you may want to replace them if they're pitted badly.

Also, are the eos switches making good contact when closed? By that, i mean is there a bit of tension between the switch contacts? If they're just touching but with no added tension, that may also contribute to the problem.

#23 5 years ago

LTG

Pinside member

Hopkins, MN

12y 191K 56,936 24 7

Quoted from frunch:
Definitely file the eos switches

They need plenty of tension holding them closed. And over time as they fatigue before breaking off, they don't always let current through good.

LTG : )

#24 5 years ago

DAV

wayout440

Pinside member

Berea, OH

11y 113K 11,264 3 12

Voltage isn't the problem. It is current (amps) that you should be concerned with. Cab switches also transfer all the current to operate flippers on these older games. Also, check and rein board connectors for the cab switch grounds that attach to the mainland (k1 relay enables flippers by completing the ground path)

#25 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Quoted from frunch:
Definitely file the eos switches and cabinet switches. Worn out cabinet switches can also contribute to this problem, so you may want to replace them if they're pitted badly.
Also, are the eos switches making good contact when closed? By that, i mean is there a bit of tension between the switch contacts? If they're just touching but with no added tension, that may also contribute to the problem.

does the EOS switch look bad on that already? I was surprised by the amount of tarnish considering its only a week old. Ive been seeing mixed views on filing the switches. Something about it taking away a coating and enabling it to pit and corrode quicker, it being only a temp fix? as for the tension i think that could be better as the secondary leaf switch which is there to help make good contact seems almost useless with the way they are positioned currently. I really need that adjustment tool.
Thanks
Blake

#26 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Quoted from LTG:
They need plenty of tension holding them closed. And over time as they fatigue before breaking off, they don't always let current through good.
LTG : )

im going to buy the adjustment tool which i hope makes a considerable difference. im also going to pull the coil out and give myself more room for adjusting. Ill see if i can create a better contact point.

Thanks
Blake

#27 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Quoted from wayout440:
Voltage isn't the problem. It is current (amps) that you should be concerned with. Cab switches also transfer all the current to operate flippers on these older games. Also, check and rein board connectors for the cab switch grounds that attach to the mainland (k1 relay enables flippers by completing the ground path)

I will address the cab switches by filing or replacing if necessary. the second part did you mean reinsert connectors? Ill go over the main connectors and make sure there is good connection. Ill look closely at K1.

Thanks
Blake

#28 5 years ago

MEH

ThePinballCo-op

The Pinball Co-op

9y 115K 1,752 40

This happened to me.

I used a file to clean off the dirt/dust on the leaf switches attached to the buttons on the cabinet. It wasn't making good enough contact.

After that, it was fine.

#29 5 years ago

DAV

DaveH

Pinside+ Frequent

Boston, MA

11y 121K 7,881 21 13

OP
Quoted from Blake:
pics of the LOWER right coil and EOS.
I know my coil lugs should be mounted away from the coil stop. just havent taken the time to get out the rat tail file.
thanks
Blake

When you check an EOS, don’t do it like that. Only touch the plunger. The reason for that is that you are checking it without the slop from the linkage. When you press the plunger into the coil, it simulates just how the machine does it. It’s also easier to feel any binding that way.

Also, I’d look if you have any binding in the new linkage. Sometimes the spacer between the bolt and the link gets squished down and binds.

#30 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Quoted from ThePinballCo-op:
This happened to me.
I used a file to clean off the dirt/dust on the leaf switches attached to the buttons on the cabinet. It wasn't making good enough contact.
After that, it was fine.

cool ill give it a shot tomorrow and see what results i get.
thanks
Blake

#31 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Quoted from DaveH:
When you check an EOS, don’t do it like that. Only touch the plunger. The reason for that is that you are checking it without the slop from the linkage. When you press the plunger into the coil, it simulates just how the machine does it. It’s also easier to feel any binding that way.
Also, I’d look if you have any binding in the new linkage. Sometimes the spacer between the bolt and the link gets squished down and binds.

so your saying dont push on the link itself and just hold onto the end of the steel plunger where the link attaches?
i will try and isolate the movement to identify any binding at the spacer.
thanks
Blake

#32 5 years ago

TPR

frunch

Pinside member

Point Pleasant, NJ

11y 135K 3,637 10

OP
Quoted from Blake:
Ive been seeing mixed views on filing the switches. Something about it taking away a coating and enabling it to pit and corrode quicker, it being only a temp fix?

Filing high-current switches (which use bigger tungsten contacts) is perfectly fine. If the contacts are that pitted, you may just want to replace the switch.

What you have to avoid is filing *gold-plated* switch contacts--typically used in the switch matrix (and use low-voltage)... For instance, the stand-up targets on your High Speed are most likely gold-plated contacts. Contacts like those can be cleaned by swiping a crisp dollar bill, business card, or clean piece of paper between the contacts. You don't want to file the gold-plated contacts! Those will get damaged and get flaky if they should be...

#33 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Quoted from frunch:
Filing high-current switches (which use bigger tungsten contacts) is perfectly fine. If the contacts are that pitted, you may just want to replace the switch.
What you have to avoid is filing *gold-plated* switch contacts--typically used in the switch matrix (and use low-voltage)... For instance, the stand-up targets on your High Speed are most likely gold-plated contacts. Contacts like those can be cleaned by swiping a crisp dollar bill, business card, or clean piece of paper between the contacts. You don't want to file the gold-plated contacts! Those will get damaged and get flaky if they should be...

very good.
thanks
Blake

#34 5 years ago

DAV

wayout440

Pinside member

Berea, OH

11y 113K 11,264 3 12

OP
Quoted from Blake:
the second part did you mean reinsert connectors? Ill go over the main connectors and make sure there is good connection. Ill look closely at K1.
Thanks
Blake

Blake, sorry - I meant repin (if necessary)

#35 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Quoted from wayout440:
Blake, sorry - I meant repin (if necessary)

ok very good.
Thanks
Blake

#36 5 years ago

DJS

Turtle

Pinside member

Allentown, PA

8y 58,650 443

Just other random thoughts in an effort to help. Are the coils loose? Are the stops or links the correct length? I bought a new flipper kit which was correctly marked but it had the wrong coil stop.

#37 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Quoted from Turtle:
Just other random thoughts in an effort to help. Are the coils loose? Are the stops or links the correct length? I bought a new flipper kit which was correctly marked but it had the wrong coil stop.

the coils are tight. but I will pull one of the stops to double check length. good idea. do you know how long they should be for system 11 pins?
thanks
Blake

#38 5 years ago

ZAC

zacaj

OP
Quoted from Blake:
the coils are tight. but I will pull one of the stops to double check length. good idea. do you know how long they should be for system 11 pins?
thanks
Blake

The important thing strength wise is that the plunger is hitting the coil stop before the link+spring collide with the front coil bracket

#39 5 years ago

DJS

Turtle

Pinside member

Allentown, PA

8y 58,650 443

OP
Quoted from Blake:
the coils are tight. but I will pull one of the stops to double check length. good idea. do you know how long they should be for system 11 pins?
thanks
Blake

No. I always use the previously installed stop to check it, assuming no previous issues. But a quick check is to push the plunger in and the link shouldn't be touching the coil. Hopefully that makes sense.

#40 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Quoted from zacaj:
The important thing strength wise is that the plunger is hitting the coil stop before the link+spring collide with the front coil bracket

right. I don't think the link is hitting at all. but ill double check.

Thanks
Blake

#41 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member

Quoted from Turtle:
No. I always use the previously installed stop to check it, assuming no previous issues. But I a quick check is to push the plunger in and the link shouldn't be touching the coil. Hopefully that makes sense.

yes makes sense. I'll look up the length.

Thanks
Blake

#42 5 years ago

BAC

Blake

Pinside member