(Topic ID: 315493)

Flipper solenoid energized, plunger won't pull in: Nitro Ground Shaker

By Sasq

1 year ago


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  • 32 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by LTG
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#1 1 year ago

HISTORY:
Both flippers fully rebuilt. One solenoid replaced, one left in game. Solenoid Driver board has new Caps (all around) and new Transistors (all solenoids). Fuses are all good. Flipper relay on driver board pulls in correctly when Q15 is grounded. Flipper switches good. 42.5V to each solenoid when flipper switch closed & EOS closed, 42.5V to 2nd winding when EOS switch opened. New coil is PINCOIL AQ-25-500/34-4500 (ohm's out correctly about 235 Ohm). Old coil is BALLY AQ-25-500/34-4500 (reads very low ohms - about 5 Ohm). Grounds from coils are both good back to driver board test point.

ISSUE:
Left side flipper solenoid receives 43V when flipper switch is closed but plunger does not pull in. If 'helped' manually by pushing the plunger in towards the stop, slight 'pushback' from the energized coil is felt until EOS is open and the 2nd winding is energized - at which point the plunger will stay in place until the flipper switch is opened and coil is de-energized. Plunger will retract under spring pressure to rest point.

Swapping the two coils, left to right and right to left - the issue does NOT follow the coil. Same coil that works on right side will not pull in plunger when installed on left side.

I am ABSOLUTELY STUMPED.

Taking any and all suggestions!

Thanks in advance!!

#2 1 year ago

The pull-in winding (thicker wire) is OK at 5 ohms.

You should see 40 volts at coil common, and the hold winding (thin wires) should be shorted by EOS switch. When the other side is grounded via flipper button and relay, pull-in winding is energized, making the flipper go up. And when the flipper is up, EOS switch opens, making the current go through both windings to prevent overheating.

Check the coil connections and EOS switches.

#3 1 year ago

Double down on what Tuukka says about the EOS switch.

The contacts should be filed shiny, and they should very firmly squeeze together until the action of the flipper separates them.

There isn't too much else in the circuit that could be starving your flipper of power, so let us know what you find!

#4 1 year ago

The entire flipper assembly is brand new, including the EOS on both sides.
All wiring is correct to the solenoid. Voltages read correct on both windings. EOS's are operating correctly.

The coil is energizing as it should (according to voltage readings) and the plunger will hold in place after being pushed manually in, triggering the 2nd winding via EOS break. Disconnection of the flipper button de-energizes the coil as it should and the spring returns the plunger to its start position.

The issue is the plunger is not pulling in of its own accord when 42.5VDC is applied, regardless of which solenoid is installed. It's like it's defying the laws of physics.

I'll take some photos...

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

When the other side is grounded via flipper button and relay, pull-in winding is energized, making the flipper go up.

That's where the issue is - the coil energizing but the flipper will not go up. The plunger is not drawn in.

You can hear a slight hum and if touched, vibration from the coil. If the plunger is manually pushed in some resistance can be felt until it reaches EOS. Once it does, the 2nd winding is energized and the flipper stays up until the flipper button is released.

#6 1 year ago

So, some possible things.

Prior work is always worth looking at, even if it's your own work!

So, brand new EOS means brand new switch contacts. I'd file them a bit, make sure I've got raw metal touching raw metal without any coating in the contact.

I'd double check my solder. I have been soldering since I was six years old, at least two or three times a week, and I STILL double check my soldering.

I'd double check that the EOS wires are on the right terminals. You have two diodes on your flipper coil. The power is coming in on the end terminal that has the band of the diode connected to it. This terminal should have one wire to your End of Stroke switch wire soldered to it. The middle terminal with the other side of that diode should have the other End of Stroke switch wire soldered to it.

Look carefully at the working flipper for how the End of Stroke wires are connected, and make sure both sides have the End of Stroke switches wired in the same way.

TUG on the end of stroke wires, and make sure that your wire isn't broken inside the insulation where you can't see it! Sometimes you will tug and something pulls apart. This is pretty common!

What you are describing is a power winding of a flipper coil that isn't getting power, while the hold winding is.

The power winding get's it's power through the End of Stroke switch, so that needs to be checked very carefully. Anything wrong with the End of Stroke switch and it's wiring can cause the power winding of the flipper coil to not have power, and not pull the flipper plunger in.

Other problems that can cause this are very, very rare, so let us know what you find!

#7 1 year ago

Your coil or EOS switch is wired incorrectly.

If the plunger stays in when manually pushed, it is not because of EOS, but because the hold winding catches the plunger when it is in enough.

The EOS switch does not energize any windings, instead it shorts out the holding winding (letting all power to pull-in winding) until the EOS opens.

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

The EOS switch does not energize any windings, instead it shorts out the holding winding (letting all power to pull-in winding) until the EOS opens.

A much better description than what I was thinking. Thanks Tuukka!

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from PinRetail:

What you are describing is a power winding of a flipper coil that isn't getting power, while the hold winding is.

I'll hit the EOS with some flexfile

#10 1 year ago

Have you reflowed the J1, J2 and flipper relay connections on the solenoid driver board? One of them could be cracked.

Are the associated header pins and connector contacts new or in very good condition?

It could be that a bad connection or something is limiting the current in the affected flipper circuit. You could read the correct voltage but the current allowed is not enough to pull in the flipper.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from Johnnybee:

Have you reflowed the J1, J2 and flipper relay connections on the solenoid driver board? One of them could be cracked.
Are the associated header pins and connector contacts new or in very good condition?
It could be that a bad connection or something is limiting the current in the affected flipper circuit. You could read the correct voltage but the current allowed is not enough to pull in the flipper.

I have reflowed the relay and checked functionality. It's working.

The headers and connectors have all been cleaned with Deoxit. Multimeter readings show continuity.

However - this is the part where I think the problem may be occuring: CURRENT. What should the amperage available be for the initial 43V inrush?

#12 1 year ago

Here are some photos. Left side is currently the Bally coil and right side is the Pincoil. The Pincoil was originally installed on the left but moved to the right as part of troubleshooting.

Pics show meter voltage readings - two on each side. One on tap 1 & 3 and the other on 2 & 3. Flipper switch closed for all pics.

Solder's on coils are just tack solders (quick test - coil swap) but behavior and meter readings unchanged.

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#13 1 year ago

Please don't get shocked by trying this on a live circuit! At this point I would take a clip lead and jumper the green wire on the left flipper coil to the orange wire on the right flipper coil. Then try the right flipper button. If both flippers fire properly then the problem is with the left flipper circuit that probably is off the playfield. If the left flipper still didn't fire properly the I would suspect something with the left flipper circuit on the playfield. If both flippers did fire when pressing the right flipper button, try pressing the left flipper button. If both don't fire you have confirmed the problem lies in the left flipper switch or left circuit through the solenoid driver board.

Another possibility is the wire connecting the +43V wire from left to right flipper coils. You could eliminate this by jumpering this wire of the two coils together and seeing if that corrects the problem.

#14 1 year ago

Do you have a manual.It looks wired wrong to me.

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from Sasq:

What should the amperage available be for the initial 43V inrush?

Since the pull-in coil is marked 3.1 ohms, current is 43/3.1, or about 14A. The voltage drops a few volts under load, so actual current may be less. Also contact resistances on relay, connectors, flipper button and EOS switch decrease the maximum current a bit.

#16 1 year ago

The plunger - if sitting too low in the coil, you won't get a full whack when the coil is energized.

That the correct plunger and coil stop ?

LTG : )

#17 1 year ago

Th behavior you described would be happening if a EOS would be permanently open. So you always would have the weak "hold" power (both parts of the coil active) And never the strong push power (hold winding shortened, only the "push" part of the coil active)

Shorten EOS e. g. with tweezers and look if flipper moves when button pushed. Will not harm anything if you only test for a short blink of an eye.

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from Johnnybee:

Please don't get shocked by trying this on a live circuit! At this point I would take a clip lead and jumper the green wire on the left flipper coil to the orange wire on the right flipper coil. Then try the right flipper button. If both flippers fire properly then the problem is with the left flipper circuit that probably is off the playfield. If the left flipper still didn't fire properly the I would suspect something with the left flipper circuit on the playfield. If both flippers did fire when pressing the right flipper button, try pressing the left flipper button. If both don't fire you have confirmed the problem lies in the left flipper switch or left circuit through the solenoid driver board.
Another possibility is the wire connecting the +43V wire from left to right flipper coils. You could eliminate this by jumpering this wire of the two coils together and seeing if that corrects the problem.

Good suggestions - will give a shot today!

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

The plunger - if sitting too low in the coil, you won't get a full whack when the coil is energized.
That the correct plunger and coil stop ?
LTG : )

Yes, both are correct for this machine.

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from Thunfisch:

Th behavior you described would be happening if a EOS would be permanently open. So you always would have the weak "hold" power (both parts of the coil active) And never the strong push power (hold winding shortened, only the "push" part of the coil active)
Shorten EOS e. g. with tweezers and look if flipper moves when button pushed. Will not harm anything if you only test for a short blink of an eye.

The EOS is closed and reads closed/open as it should (when disconnected from the solenoid).

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from Johnnybee:

At this point I would take a clip lead and jumper the green wire on the left flipper coil to the orange wire on the right flipper coil. Then try the right flipper button. If both flippers fire properly then the problem is with the left flipper circuit that probably is off the playfield. If the left flipper still didn't fire properly the I would suspect something with the left flipper circuit on the playfield. If both flippers did fire when pressing the right flipper button, try pressing the left flipper button. If both don't fire you have confirmed the problem lies in the left flipper switch or left circuit through the solenoid driver board.

OK - results:

Jumpered the orange & green.

Pressing the right flipper button made left & right flippers fire. Left flipper was only a partial though - as soon as the right flipper hit EOS the left's field collapsed before it could reach EOS - but it did MOVE.

Pressing the left flipper button resulted in the identical behavior as pressing the right. Both fired but when the right hit EOS the left collapsed before EOS.

#22 1 year ago

this flipper that isn't energising/operating correctly.......can you lift the actual flipper from the top of the playfield up and down say a 1-2mm, so I'm asking if you have any 'play'?

are you 100% sure it's mechanically free?

#23 1 year ago

you did mention that your meter is showing the EOS opening and closing, but even new EOS switches, although closed and look to be closed can have an infinite resistance. I don't suggest filing new tungsten contacts but clean with a solvent or running some 1000 grade wet and sand paper will remove any residue.

have you verified that when the EOS switches are closed you are reading zero ohms resistance and/or have continuity.
you need to remove a wire from the EOS switch to test this, or from the coil.

#24 1 year ago

also when manually operated, what gap do have on the EOS?

#25 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

are you 100% sure it's mechanically free?

Yes

#26 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

have you verified that when the EOS switches are closed you are reading zero ohms resistance and/or have continuity.

Yes

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

also when manually operated, what gap do have on the EOS?

About 1/5” travel before it starts to open and gapped to a little more than a 1/16” drill bit.

#28 1 year ago
Quoted from Sasq:

OK - results:
Jumpered the orange & green.
Pressing the right flipper button made left & right flippers fire. Left flipper was only a partial though - as soon as the right flipper hit EOS the left's field collapsed before it could reach EOS - but it did MOVE.
Pressing the left flipper button resulted in the identical behavior as pressing the right. Both fired but when the right hit EOS the left collapsed before EOS.

Left flipper moved when you jumpered orange to green but does not move without the jumper. That could indicate extra resistance in the left flipper switch circuit.

Did you try jumpering the hot side of the two flipper coils together, and see if the left fires? Could be two problems contributing to the symptom.

Did you have this problem before replacing the flipper coils?

You might want to recheck all solder joints to make sure none are cold. You can't reliably test them by ohming them out because they can show continuity.

#29 1 year ago

IT WAS AMPERAGE.

Quoted from Johnnybee:

Did you try jumpering the hot side of the two flipper coils together, and see if the left fires? Could be two problems contributing to the symptom.
Did you have this problem before replacing the flipper coils?

Yes - the machine came to us with this issue. I only replaced one coil as it had infinite resistance. The coil I left in shows only 5 Ohm on the main winding and it wasn't until the replacement arrived that I realized that it should be ~300 Ohm give or take. I'm leaving it in though.

I did jumper the hot to the hot and it made both fire (even without the ground jumpered) - so after some hunting on the supply side wiring I found a stranded wire that only had one of the strands connected. Fixed that and ka-pow - full power to left flipper.

BTW: Whoever asked about the gapping on the switches - do you know what it really should be for this particular machine? I was simply shooting for what I 'felt' would be about average for that type of switch and functionality...

Thanks!

#30 1 year ago

BTW: Whoever asked about the gapping on the switches - do you know what it really should be for this particular machine? I was simply shooting for what I 'felt' would be about average for that type of switch and functionality...
Thanks!

regarding gap of EOS when flipper energised, 1/8 .

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from Sasq: I found a stranded wire that only had one of the strands connected. Fixed that and ka-pow - full power to left flipper.

GREAT NEWS!

Congratulations, this is one of the hardest to solve problems in pinball.

Nice job finding it!

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from PinRetail:

Congratulations, this is one of the hardest to solve problems in pinball.

Because you have voltage and continuity if measured.

The single strand doesn't let enough power through for the coil to fire.

LTG : )

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