Thanks for the review. They do make a huge difference in Tron for sure!

Have you ever tried using a separate powered subwoofer? Just wondered how you would compare that to the dedicated system that Michael sells.

A must in all my Sterns. Especially Spider-Man and Acdc Pro. It's my first upgrade. Mike is a good guy.

The external powered sub is a bit better bass wise. But having it external is a deal breaker for many.

After a number of FF systems, I recently used an external sub for the first time on my Tron. The sound is better, it was cheaper, easier to install, easier to keep if/when I sell, and no glass rattle to deal with.

Where can you get the anti-rattle tape and where do you put it?

Also, the external on my SM doesn't seem as rounded and intense as the FF in my TFLE. Maybe the quality of the sound source is better in the latest pins?

Anti-Rattle tape:
http://pinballpro.net/shop/anti-rattle-tape-ar-1/

Internal subs add 'feel' that an external can't provide. It's not all about just sounding good.

That's it! I like the full immersion effect. Especially when the shakers going and the lights are exploding.

Much obliged! Do you out this on the top or bottom of the glass? Or both?

Now that I've morphed back into a stern line up I will be placing a large order at FF. I just have to decide which pins get a external vs. internal sub. I hate the extra box underneath but love the sound. Plus with external no glass rattle at all.

I put it on the top, but I don't think it really matters. Basically, it just makes the glass fit the channels a bit tighter so that it doesn't have room to vibrate.

which external sub is recommended for ACDC prem?

I have the Polk 10inch sub you can pic up at amazon. You can hook up 2 machines if you like. Many like B.R. . will tell you to go bigger but I think you can go to large. My Batman is intense with the 10inch sub.

http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-10-Inch-Monitor-Subwoofer/dp/B0002KVQBA/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_0

At $90.00 that's a great price for the increased sound quality.

Chris

Flirting with trying the new PP set up for Avengers to compare with FF. Anyone compare the latest PP - with 12" - to the FF?

You can also get it at:

http://www.flipperfidelity.com/products.php?cat=Anti_Rattle_Tape&itemId=135

You can go to lowes as well and get things like foam backed tape for probably cheaper overall. Lowes and home depot have tons of things used in pins, its just knowing they have them and finding someone working there who actually knows where it is

Michael, I'll try some of this tape with the Avengers and speakers I just ordered

Tad

I should have known Michael carried the tape as well. He actually included enough for a single layer on each edge of the glass in the kit I just received.

On my Tron, I put a layer on each side of the glass and it works great. I can crank up the bass and volume and I don't hear any rattle.

I agree. I have a mix of both, depending on the location of the pin and how noticeable the sub underneath would be. But I would say the bass with the powered sub is more than just a "bit" better than the internal sub.

The rattle is a big problem. I have tape on my Tron, and even with the tape, I get some annoying rattles with the FF system.

I definitely agree with this too. The internal sub gives you more solid feedback through the cabinet better than the external sub.

I decide to revive this thread rather than start a new one. I just purchased an FF speaker set for my MM and am a little apprehensive about having to remove the speaker block under the factory subwoofer. Could someone who has done this chime in on how easy it comes off? I don't want to damage the bottom of my cabinet also any other installation tips would be appreciated.

is there a difference in the FF systems and the pinball pro systems, or are they one in the same???

Let me also chime in with my 2 cents and question for others. I love FF speakers and I have them in a ton of my Stern's, they sound amazing in my Tron and Transformers and X-men, completely makes the sound so much deeper and rattles the game when it's loud. However I put them in my Metallica and I don't feel near the effect or that they make the game sound any better or louder. Seemed odd, I was really hoping for a WOW effect and I just didn't get it on Metallica, I wonder if I have something wrong with them, I checked every wire 5 times over and everything is in there right.

I put the FF system in my LOTR. It sounds great, but you can't change those horrible compressed sounds on that game that are so garbled sometimes its tough to make out what they're saying.

I put the FF system in my Tron LE, and although it is an improvement, they could have done a much better job with the sound quality that the machine came with from the factory. It seems some of my B/W games have much better sound quality.

Anyone have feedback on how well these work in WPC era machines, Terminator 2 specifically?

My other pins are modern Stern and WPC-DCS and the sound in the T2 totally blows in comparison.

Will the FF system help? Not real concerned with the bass as I run external subs.

Thanks Buckman! Was it a decent improvement in sound over the stock speaker setup?

Well, as a counterpoint I have used the Pinball Pro set up for years. I am an audiophile nut anyway. Have installed probably forty or more on certain games we have sold. A couple observations. First, yes, it will vastly improve the audio on most games, but not all. Williams was transitioning into better sound around BK2000, before the memory got cheap enough for them to really upgrade. So, the audio is really shrill sounding on some Williams games from that era, and while a sub would improve things I wouldn't upgrade the other speakers from games of that era as it will actually make it sound worse by spotlighting the very poor fidelity in the music. BK2000 was unlistenable to my sensitive ears, and I would not put it in BOP either. However, most of the newer and older WMS games will offer a signifiant difference. And I just put one in my Data East Batman and wow.

Which brings me to point two. Just for kicks I tried a Flipper Fidelity system for Batman, and got the specific set for that game. Not only do they not come with mounting material, the front speakers did not fit flush so I had to remove the grills. Not a big deal as the speakers look cool, but it might be to others! The Pin Pros come with mounting hardware that keeps everything totally stock, including wood blocks to fit on the WMS mounts, and I think they also sound a bit better. They are exactly the same price, so for me I wouldn't use Flip Fidelity again. Once you see how beautiful the install is, I doubt you would use anything else. Just my two cents after 15 years of doing audio upgrades on pins. I used to even put speakers on top of routed games back in the 80's. Firepower is amazing with upgraded sound....I remember of all things Seawitch also benefiting a great deal! Upgrading your speakers is the single best thing you can do to seriously upgrade most of your pins!

Cannot speak to your specific situation, but I recently put FF in my TZ and it came with all the mounting material I needed. A new mount for the cabinet speaker and a new mount for the backbox right speaker. Install looks very professional, even original looking. While it's no big deal to me, since you mentioned "totally stock", I'll toss out that FF apparently requires using less "new" wiring, keeping it stock. Big deal or not, the reader's choice.

FF in TZ made a significant improvement. The result was strong enough that I'd keep going with FF, if I decided to upgrade another. Because I started with FF, I don't see any reason to try something else. I just don't see the room for improvement. Being very clear, I'm not dogging PP at all... I have no experience with it.

No idea what you are talking about. All FF speakers come with the mounting hardware.

I own a TZ personally too. I know of no other game where the speaker upgrade makes such a dramatic difference! I love it when it shouts out "don't touch the door"...sounds amazing. We just did a Scared Stiff for a client and it really bumped that title up too. STNG also benefits a great deal. It really depends on the game.

After reading your post I wonder if I just got a bum package from FF. I was shocked the speakers did not quite fit in the Batman when what I ordered was supposed to be made for it. It is possible they sent me the wrong set, but that was quite an expensive mistake for them to make if so, because I won't buy from them again and take that chance. The Pro set does come with a replacement wiring cable. It is all plug and play. It sounds like your set came with the same type of mounting hardware Pro uses. Why they sent me what they did is a mystery to me. Glad everyone else seems happy with FF. Interesting that they seem to have taken over the speaker replacement market. I never hear about Pin Pro anymore, and their product is so top notch. In your case, it sounds like the two products are a push. Maybe one of them will lower their price down the line!

Well, mine did not! They don't even fit in the game properly. I have been buying these kits for years and thought I would give FF a shot. Sounds like I got either a reject, or the wrong kit. Either way, it was a bad move on their part. I probably buy more of these kits than most other pinball sellers....I think it makes a huge difference and is worth pushing them in all our sales. We don't even mark them up...I just think its good business to recommend them. Glad everyone else has had a positive experience with FF. Doesn't matter to me what we use...they are the same price, but they have to fit the game they claim it is for and in our experience they didn't. If it wasn't my own personal game I would not have shipped it that way with no front speaker grill, which are nice on Batman. And we had to come up with our own mounting screws too. Never have these issues with the PP product. I think they probably screwed up and sent the wrong kit, but my feeling is if they don't care enough to make sure the right product is sent,I don't really want to be put in that position again.

I have the Pinball Pro version in my TZ/T2 and they both sound great! Way better than the crummy stock speakers.

So you didn't even bother to call or email Pupo about this?

At least you are reasonable.

You know why the upgrade on TZ rocks so much? It's because that game has the BEST JACKPOT sound effect EVER. Seriously.

Are speaker upgrades worth a poop in an environment where the games aren't ever going to be more than 30% of max volume?

Yes. I don't turn mine up too loud but it does make the sound so much better, at least on WPC games. I had the old basic PP set in my TAF and HSII and my buddy's TOM and they all were noticeably better sounding. LaGrange sounded anemic when I took the speakers out of HSII and put them in my TAF. The thunder on TAF was impressive, you could feel it in the machine.

Well, I assumed (yes, bad word!) it didn't come with the mounting hardware or wood mounts like the Pros do and I would have continued presuming so had I not seen this thread. But I did expect the speakers to at least fit the holes flush. I am very busy and ultimately even if it is the mfg fault, I just don't have the time to box things back up and go to the post office unless it is a serious issue. If it wasn't for my own game I would have definitely at least called them. I figure that is the risk of buying on line. Just no reason for me to try again as the other system is fine and they have always shipped the right speakers the first time.

Yes. At least on the Pin Pros you can adjust the subwoofer if you don't want it loud, while hearing very nice mid and high range audio. Think of it like removing a blanket from you speakers. Not every game will benefit enough to warrant the upgrade, but if you own a game with great sound, you can pretty much bet you will experience a big improvement. Some people simply don't care about sound....a good friend of mine always turns my games down really low when he plays them. If you don't, I wouldn't spend the cash. But, if you do, I can't think of a more dramatic way to update your prized games. If you have a TZ, STNG or some other WMS games from that era, it really is pretty amazing. I don't recall it helping TAF as much, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. I'm sure a sub would benefit almost any game, and you can just buy one of those if you wish, from either FF or Pinball Pro. If anyone has a Firepower...don't hesitate to get the whole speaker set. It really has a nice range of audio and it will really modernize your game. Same with Alien Poker.

TAF may not have been as big a difference as other games but it was a noticeable improvement.

Ok I just installed the FF system in my MM and my only regret is that I didn't buy a system for my Iron Man while they were on sale .... These speakers sound awesome! Thanks Michael