(Topic ID: 279483)

Flipper feel on JJP pins?

By BlackKnight3000

1 year ago


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  • 23 posts
  • 19 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 months ago by DaveH
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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    #1 1 year ago

    Unfortunately, in all of my travels, I've yet to come across, or play any JJP pin. So, I'm curious about their flipper feel.
    Personally, I can't stand Stern's flippers/coils. Either they're incredibly overpowered, sending the ball literally flying through the playfield, or can't make it up halfway the playfield. My own personal preference has been Williams/Bally flippers.

    I remember reading somewhere that JJP uses some Williams/Bally parts specifically flipper coils.

    So, my question is to those of you who own, or have played JJP pins, how do they feel, and do they come close to replicate Williams/Bally flippers?

    #2 1 year ago
    Quoted from BlackKnight3000:

    Unfortunately, in all of my travels, I've yet to come across, or play any JJP pin. So, I'm curious about their flipper feel.
    Personally, I can't stand Stern's flippers/coils. Either they're incredibly overpowered, sending the ball literally flying through the playfield, or can't make it up halfway the playfield. My own personal preference has been Williams/Bally flippers.
    I remember reading somewhere that JJP uses some Williams/Bally parts specifically flipper coils.
    So, my question is to those of you who own, or have played JJP pins, how do they feel, and do they come close to replicate Williams/Bally flippers?

    My WoZ feels almost the same as my Demolition Man. Pitch, power, etc. I've also played DI and The Hobbit and they feel pretty much the same.

    #3 1 year ago

    They feel like classic Williams flippers. My WOZ feels just like the Road Show that's beside it.

    17
    #4 1 year ago

    They don't feel very good. Everyone I've ever talked to about it feels the same, across multiple copies of games and for every JJP. Generally weaker and a big soggy, even when at max strength, and they seem to lose power near the end of the stroke which makes outside (orbit) shots harder to hit. Especially bad in any sort of low power/line voltage conditions. They're probably the worst feeling flippers of any current manufacturer.

    AP pins have a similar feel, but not as pronounced

    JJP, AP, and Spooky use williams mechs, but none feel quite like williams games.

    #5 1 year ago

    They usually feel weak to me.

    #6 1 year ago

    It depends on your taste I suppose. I have two Sterns and two JJP. I do agree with others that the JJP feels weaker than the Sterns. Its not a bad thing, its just different IMO.

    #7 1 year ago

    It's like JJP was going for the B/W flipper feel, but missed the mark slightly. It still feels closer to the classics than a Stern, though.

    #8 1 year ago

    They feel a bit soft. But it really isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. Just like getting used to shot geometry on a new game, you will get used to the feel.

    #9 1 year ago

    They totally feel like Williams Superpin, I felt home the first time I plugged my WOZ, flippers feel less snappy than Stern and reminded me of STTNG. They do have a different way of hitting the ball than Stern, I wouldn't say weak especially since the power can be fine tuned, but they feel more like they scoop the ball instead of hitting it, it's hard to describe but I hope it makes sense.

    #10 1 year ago

    I prefer the sterns over jjp. Like the strong snappy feel

    #11 1 year ago

    I feel that stern flippers has more power. But they also feel more digital, on or off, 0 or 1.
    With the JJP flippers I can easily do small flips to get control of the ball, or to pass the ball. JJP feels like my superpins. I dig them.

    1 week later
    #12 12 months ago

    Thanks everyone for your replies. Hopefully one day I'll be able to play a JJP pin for myself.

    #13 12 months ago

    Only JJP I’ve owned is Wonka and I just didn’t like the flipper feel at all compared to my Sterns
    I increased flipper strength and all that did was give me consistent air balls
    Needless to say I sold Wonka at a considerable loss and though I’m tempted to get a GNR from JJP, I won’t do so until I play one first

    1 month later
    #14 10 months ago

    Can you exchange coils or flipper mech to get a stronger flipper?

    #15 10 months ago
    Quoted from Animal:

    Can you exchange coils or flipper mech to get a stronger flipper?

    Just turn up the power in the settings.

    Flippers are fine.

    #16 10 months ago
    Quoted from Animal:

    Can you exchange coils or flipper mech to get a stronger flipper?

    Why would you ?
    More powerful does not mean better flippers or better gameplay.

    If you want a game with the powerful Stern flipper feel then buy a Stern.
    If you want something different then buy something different.

    I like my DI flippers, they're powerful enough and the game plays smooth.

    #17 10 months ago

    I now have a WOZ and a DI, I can say there is no such thing as JJP flipper feel.
    These 2 are very different, WOZ are powerful and fast, DI are smooth more pushing the ball than hitting it.
    Both suits the gameplay very well.

    #18 9 months ago

    So, the second JJ game I played was a GnR ata distributor, it felt so good, I bought the game...

    2 months later
    #19 7 months ago
    Quoted from zacaj:

    They don't feel very good. Everyone I've ever talked to about it feels the same, across multiple copies of games and for every JJP. Generally weaker and a big soggy, even when at max strength, and they seem to lose power near the end of the stroke which makes outside (orbit) shots harder to hit. Especially bad in any sort of low power/line voltage conditions. They're probably the worst feeling flippers of any current manufacturer.
    AP pins have a similar feel, but not as pronounced
    JJP, AP, and Spooky use williams mechs, but none feel quite like williams games.

    My experience as well. Hard to believe that in 2021, no pinball manufacturer has been able to best (or duplicate) the B/W flipper system architecture. The flippers on my STTNG feel so perfect. FWIW, even though Stern flippers don't feel like B/W flippers, I still like the flipper feel/strength.

    I played a GNR SE this week and couldn't believe how awful the flippers felt...weak, limp. My assessment wasn't unique. I recently sold my DILE, whose flippers felt much better than the GNR I played. So...maybe the GNR SE just hasn't been dialed in? Who knows...you'd think the flipper mechs/code across JJP games would be the same.

    I have a R&M (my first Spooky game) and the flippers required some tweaking (EOS adjustment, bushings needed lowering, etc.). People have speculated that the problem is related to P-ROC (the pinball controller hardware), the lack of dual wound coils, or the Spooky specific microcode. Who knows? Whatever it is, I'm confident Spooky will figure it out (they are still actively tweaking the code). Awesome company/game/support, btw.

    Lastly, flipper fans are starting to become the rage (on Pinside, at least) to deal with flipper coils that can hover around 200 degrees F after playing a game for 30-60 minutes in a home use environment (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/aw-jeez-official-rick-and-morty-club/page/235#post-6181887). Based on information from other threads (and my own measurements), flipper fade kicks in @ ~125F (so at 200F, flipper fade is miserable). Makes you wonder if pinball manufacturers are even testing/measuring how hot these flippers get...

    I've been in this hobby for 17 years and have owned many games. While I understand that coils getting hot is not a new phenomena, the flippers on my 60+ games over the years have never gotten hot enough to dramatically effect flipper strength (or the ability to make a shot). I've hosted many tournaments, and players rarely complained about flipper fade (where the games might be played for 3-6 hours fairly continuously). With some of the newer games, this isn't the case. If it becomes impossible to make key shots after 30-60 minutes of use, there is something wrong with the flipper system architecture IMHO. Just to be clear...the existence of flipper fans doesn't bother me at all. Great to have a tool for more extreme pinball environments (streaming, free play arcades, etc.). What bothers me is having the flippers fade to the point where the flippers are useless during a 20-30 minute "breakthrough" game.

    #20 7 months ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    Hard to believe that in 2021, no pinball manufacturer has been able to best (or duplicate) the B/W flipper system architecture. The flippers on my STTNG feel so perfect.

    I’ve found that all games feel different. And because I’ve played a lot of games over the years, even multiple copies of the same games feel different, and shoot different. I won’t go into the subtleties of why here.

    When I play a game in my house a lot, that starts feeling natural to me. So when I finally switch games, he new one feels strange for a while. The difference between SAM and SPIKE always surprises me. But it’s the same jump if I’m playing a lot of EM games, switching to Williams, or the other direction.

    That probably springs out of how I play my games. I tend to focus on a couple games for a few weeks to a month. Then I just play something else a lot, and the games switch for me. 6 months later I’ll probably have made my way around to the first game again, and it feels brand new and strange.

    So I really can’t say one is better than the next, as long as they are functioning correctly. I kind of like that they are all different.

    2 weeks later
    #21 6 months ago

    I find it mildly surprising the pinball guys haven't been all over things like inductive pickups into an oscilloscope to compare the PWM patterns and current draw between makes and models, let alone more elaborate stuff like load cells for flipper power, imaging and data plotting of thermal data, high speed photography of flipper movement, automated button response time testing, etc, etc.

    Stuff like this has been a big deal in the retro video gaming world for years now, but if anybody is doing it in pinball land, that's news to me. In all my time hanging around places like this I have yet to stumble across any of this going on (feel free to link me if anybody is...).

    #22 6 months ago

    these sentiments that JJP and Stern differ on flipper feel is weird to me. People's opinions seem to ignore that JJP and Stern do things their own way, and both make great fun games.

    JJP does "feel" different, but is different bad, per se? i know I love them both. Sterns do play faster, generally speaking, so that's a thing, IMO. However, JJP games are still great. why don't we all just appreciate the uniqueness of each manufacturer, and if you love the games, just buy them and move on. everything doesn't always have to be the same before it can be great.

    have fun, play tons, and wear out your games with play time!!!

    #23 6 months ago
    Quoted from randomdoohickey:

    I find it mildly surprising the pinball guys haven't been all over things like inductive pickups into an oscilloscope to compare the PWM patterns and current draw between makes and models, let alone more elaborate stuff like load cells for flipper power, imaging and data plotting of thermal data, high speed photography of flipper movement, automated button response time testing, etc, etc.
    Stuff like this has been a big deal in the retro video gaming world for years now, but if anybody is doing it in pinball land, that's news to me. In all my time hanging around places like this I have yet to stumble across any of this going on (feel free to link me if anybody is...).

    First of all, they have. There was a lot of that around as people were comparing the remakes of old games like MM and AFM. There were a few oscilloscope pictures showing all kinds of things. However surprisingly, not that many pinball people are electrical engineers. So it didn't go to the high level you want. I went looking for that conversation on Pinside, and ran into CrazyLevi just starting up a new discussion on comparing original vs remake flippers. So I'm quite sure an electrical engineer would be welcome there.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/it-s-time-to-talk-about-cgc-remake-flippers-

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