Back to tuning it up. Refurbing the pops. Only one old solder wire popped off last night. 
(Topic ID: 294901)
Linked Games
Flipper Fair
Gottlieb, 1961
Topic Gallery
2 weeks later
Everything works now! #1 pop wasn’t scoring. Turned out to be a rogue wire that had jumped off the #1 rollover relay.
Left flipper is sticking. Expect it to be fixed when I install the new flipper buttons.
Next step is raising some inserts if I can. Going to try to level out the red aab insert - it’s very concave.
#1 pop not scoring when lit again. But now I know which switch it is on the rollover relay.
Replaced the flipper coil sleeves. The coil stop was stuck in the sleeve on one of them. Found the broken off nut with the sheared off bolt in the coin box.
All done !! Everything works. It is cleaned & waxed and all the metal is bright & shiny.
Waiting on a flipper coil stop and a red insert. Gonna buy me a nice mirrored ball from Titan .
Next up, Drop A Card.
Quoted from undrdog:All done !!
No pics?
Surely a classic that easily deserves
to be in an EM collection..
1 week later
Well, I thought I was all done with it. Still getting flickering lights along the left side of the machine. Scores correctly, just the lights.
Also, just noticed that there is no bell or knocker pop when you get an add a ball.
The inserts are raised and I can finally play it 
Shay backglass.
7CD01D7D-A7AF-44E1-9117-0210A2402A8C (resized).jpegE1F6E476-0AFA-4C84-A575-B1DF9B3F29F2 (resized).jpegF675DAC5-06DE-4530-B51A-10711248DD74 (resized).jpeg
Lutz, FL
Quoted from undrdog:Well, I thought I was all done with it. Still getting flickering lights along the left side of the machine. Scores correctly, just the lights.
Also, just noticed that there is no bell or knocker pop when you get an add a ball.
The inserts are raised and I can finally play it
Shay backglass.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
That looks fantastic and should be very fun to play. I have a Cross Town that has a similar play field.
017A1572-0E1F-433B-9E81-E8C7D949A73E (resized).jpegQuoted from undrdog:Well, I thought I was all done with it. Still getting flickering lights along the left side of the machine. Scores correctly, just the lights.
Also, just noticed that there is no bell or knocker pop when you get an add a ball.
The inserts are raised and I can finally play it
Shay backglass.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
I love that back glass.
Quoted from Silverstreak02:I have a Cross Town that has a similar play field.
Beautiful.
I got the flickering lights fixed. Loose contact on #2 rollover relay. Pinched it down with a jeweler's pliers.
The big aab bell isn’t ringing reliably. I think it’s the coil or sleeve.
Quoted from undrdog:The big aab bell isn’t ringing reliably. I think it’s the coil or sleeve.
So you feel the bell gets the juice, but doesn't always ring?
Is the plunger sticking upward?
I think the plunger is stuck inside. The sleeve is unusual, too. Looks like it was installed the wrong way and is too long, too. Or maybe the coil is dying. Either way, it needs a sleeve.
Everything but that bell works. I’ve finally been able to play a few games. The hole between the flippers is enormous. But it sure has that "one more quarter" appeal.
Quoted from undrdog:I think the plunger is stuck inside. The sleeve is unusual, too. Looks like it was installed the wrong way and is too long,
Sleeves for bells are longer extending further downward.
I had bell plungers that stuck (usually while up), and sometimes
filing the bottom's edge on an angle would do the trick, and while
it was out, I'd clean it with Lemon Pledge, and if the sleeve seemed
okay, I'd clean that with Lemon Pledge on a cue tip.
I can't remember if on bells, but I have had plungers not performing
properly because of bad/worn coil stops..
Quoted from Mopar:I can't remember if on bells, but I have had plungers not performing
properly because of bad/worn coil stops..
Jesus! That was almost like asking a trick question.. Come to think of it, I
couldn't have had a bad coil stop on a bell. Bells don't have coil stops.
Nothing tricky. Just wasn't thinking..
That was the other weird thing- no stop. But no plunger visible, either. I think it’s stuck. Ought to be able to get back to it later this week.
Learn something new… bell plungers have a plastic point . We’ll, this one used to, anyway. Friend has one.
The sleeve is stuck in the coil. Cleaned it out with alcohol & paper towel. Plunger slides much better but still gets stuck. Hopefully the friend’s plunger fits better.
Quoted from undrdog:Does getting 1-4 rollovers reset them or they stay on for the rest of the game ?
After getting the last number, you get an added ball, then after the
ball drains, 2 of the 4 numbers reset. Sometimes 1 and 3. Sometimes
2 and 4. So to get another added ball, only those 2 lit numbers need
to be made..
Well, hell.
It was all working. Ok, so the 1-4 rollovers reset completely instead of 1 & 3 or 2 & 4, but it worked. The lower side rollovers did flicker some. How hard could that be to fix? Soldered the contacts on the easy to get to leafs. What could possibly go wrong?
Started looking at the sequence relay. Naturally, a set of double wires jumped off. Noticed the top back leaf had a cut yellow snip of a wire . Nothing nearby that it would attach to.
Fast forward a session or two trying to figure out what might have gone there and now a wire has popped off a reset relay and the ball count unit won’t advance right manually. The machine no longer resets, probably due to that.
I imagine I can get it back to where it was, but where is the yellow wire that someone snipped off that lug? Where is the purple wire someone snipped off another lug, same stack?
The machine from hell strikes again. And I had a totally playable machine but for some flickering lights that I just had to fix.
On the bright side, our new secretary at work is doing just fine. Better than still having to hire someone and have a working pin.
Additional thoughts- maybe the yellow snip of a wire and the purple don’t go to anything. Maybe someone brought in a replacement switch and couldn’t be bothered to remove the old wires. Because there are no hanging wires nearby that would have gone there. Not tucked inside the harness, no where.
Note to self: never buy a beautiful brand new repro bg until the machine works!
Started looking at the sequence relay. Naturally, a set of double wires jumped off. Noticed the top back leaf had a cut yellow snip of a wire . Nothing nearby that it would attach to.</blockquote
Here's a pic of the Sequence Relay which does play a part and sounds like it's doing its job, but it's actually
through the "A" Alternative Relay that either 1 and 3 (W & Y) Relays, or 2 and 4 (X & Z) Relays get re-energized
and the other two remain de-energized..
Once all 4 Relay are energized, the Sequence Relay's VR energizes which then cuts the direct circuit to the 4 relays
(which is once energized) and puts it in the hands of the Alternative Relay. So now when all 4 Rollovers are made,
and the ball drains, a set of switches in the 1st set of trough switches opens and drops out the X & Z (2 & 4) Relays,
and a set in the 2nd set of trough switches drops out the W & Y (1 & 3) Relays. However, 2 of the sets won't drop
out. They'll remain energized and which 2 remain energize depends on the Alternative Relay's position..
Once the ball drains through the trough and either set is dropped out (de-energized) the VR side of the Sequence
Relay will de-energize and the V side will energize. Thus, when the ball drains and all 4 rollovers haven't been made,
not anyone of the ones that have will drop out because it has a direct current with the V side of the Sequence Relay
energized. Sorry if I can't relay it any better, but all in all, I'm thinking maybe the VR side of the Sequence Relay wasn't
energizing once all 4 rollovers were made, thinking maybe a contact in 1 (or more) of those 4 Relays..
I know now you said you had additional problems. Let us know where you stand..
I don't know wth happened. I wrote a lengthy post explaining (including a pic) and only a small
chunk got sent. Anyways, in short. I believe the VR side of the Sequence Relay isn't energizing.
It energizes after all 4 rollovers have been made. Once energized, it cuts the direct circuit to the
4 Relays W & Y (1 & 3) and X and Z (2 & 4) which allows one of the sets to drop out from a set of
trough switches once the ball is drained. I would check the switches (and of course solder joints)
in those 4 Relays. I know you said you now have additional problems. Let us know where you
stand. Here's a pic of the Sequence Relay..
Mopar Thank you very much.
I will check my trough switches. I did bang something removing the PF and sure could have messed up a trough switch.
Here is what I have on my sequence relay- please let me know if it matches yours.
On the stack closest to the PF, starting at the top (by the screw heads) and going down:
(colors reported are my best guess of faded colors)
1) connection off the end, thick orange & brown
2) connection off the side, is blank, except for a snipped off white or yellow piece
3) connection off the side, double wire light orange & blue; also a snip of purple wire
Here is what is going on:
Some of the problem could well be due to a messed up switch on one of the rollover relays. While working on one of the rollover relays, I think I messed up a switch with a large spacer on it.
Meanwhile... the double wire connection mentioned at 3) above had jumped off. That's what started this whole thing.
The machine never had reset to 1-3 or 2-4, just all 4 reset. There was nothing on 2) above but the snip of a white or yellow wire. So, even though the double wires do not reach to 2) and came off of 3), I jumpered them to 2) to see if maybe they should have been there. Then I made the 1-4 rollovers to see what happened.
What happened was a loud buzzing from the head, which stopped when I touched the 1 pt relay and now the 1-4 rollovers were reset to 1 & 3. Repeating to recreate the error, turns out it wasn't really the 1 pt relay. The buzzing is from the juggling units.
Which brings us back to a likely messed up rollover relay switch which I can trace down and fix.
Only now the ball count unit isn't advancing well manually. I must have really jammed or burned something.
To sum... it seems like the advance relay was fixed incorrectly by a previous owner because I was able to get the 1-4 rollovers to reset to 1 & 3, other problems notwithstanding.
The snipped wires must be from someone substituting in different switches because there are no other wires that could connect to them. No cut wires inside the nearby harness. Nothing.
Please let me know what wires are where on your stack and I'll do my best to take it from there.
Thanks always,
mike
Mike, here's a couple other pics a little closer up of the Sequence Relay..
I forgot, but you do have a schematic, right?
Once all 4 rollover relays are energized, it completes the circuit so the VR
side of the Sequence Relay to energize. That needs to happen so only one
set (either the 1 & 3 or 2 & 4) rollovers lights after the ball has drained..
Let me know if these pics do the trick..
IMG_0815 (resized).JPGIMG_0816 (resized).JPGWhat determines whether it resets to 1 & 3 vs 2 & 4 ? Knowing that would help me understand what's going on.
Could I get a shot from looking onto the screw heads? It looks like a red & brown wire going to the top leaf nearest to the bracket, is that correct?
I do have a schematic, but I fall short on understanding a lot of the machine logic from looking at it. I can usually tell that a gadget runs to a certain relay and play with the switches on that relay until the right thing happens. But this is a few steps too deep for me. One lug doesn't even have wire at all and there's nothing nearby.
Okay. First the inside lugs (closest to the playfield) starting at the screws' heads..
1. Red with brown & yellow tracers (I needed a magnifying glass to make out the yellow)
2. Double Orange with black (or at least dark) tracer.
3. Blue with white tracer
4. Green & White (Neither color seems to be a tracer. Both are about even)
Outside row starting at screws' heads..
1. Red & White (Both colors are about even)
2. Solid Tan (tanish) no tracer
3. No direct wire. It has a jumper from the 1st blade that has the Red & White wire. (is this the one with no wire?)
4. Yellow & Purple
Note: Okay, so this is reading the wires from the screws' heads. Right to left.
Here is the one with the missing wire, but now that I see it better, it kinda looks like a side lug on the same switch as the red with yellow & brown tracers.
Still, why the cut wire ?why two lugs on one switch?
Fixed 2nd trough switch. Sometimes it just doesn’t want to behave. Adjusted it twice before.
36F66B51-5E20-44D8-A948-52465C9D86AA (resized).jpeg Looks like that's an add on. What's the 2nd inside blade have? It should
have 2 Orange/black wires..
Quoted from Mopar:What's the 2nd inside blade have? It should
have 2 Orange/black wires..
Yes. Those are the two that jumped off and started this whole mess.
Fixed the 2nd trough switch. Adjusted two switches on the W relay. Soldered a wire back on the 50 pt relay that had jumped off.
The reset cycle is stuck with the ball count unit clacking away and the juggling coils firing. Starts the cycle immediately when there's power. All score reels are at zero and they haven't been trouble before.
Making progress. Balls to play still starts on power up, but after cleaning I got a buzz and a bell.
MFH ! (Machine From Hell)
It sounds like the Control Bank (well the schematics just calls it Bank) isn't energizing which would be
the case if the Ball Count Unit isn't stepping up to 5 balls.
For the Ball Count Unit to step up at start up, the Reset Relay (D) in the Bank needs to energize. For
the D Relay to energize, of course the score creels need to zero out so a set of contacts in each Score
Reel makes, and the Ball Count Unit needs to be totally reset so a set of switches in it makes. A set of
contacts in the D Relay itself needs to be made (while the D relay hasn't been yet energized). And then
Score Motor 1C (I'm thinking 1C runs of the top cam) needs to make. Of course the set of switches on the
Ball Count is on its backside.
Now if the D Relay is energized (maybe I should say tripped) (but that's probably not the case), then it
could be a set of contacts not cleanly making after the D relay has been energized..
Making progress!!
Nothing happens until the start button is pressed . 10 pt relay stucK. Getting juice from somewhere. Probably a rollover relay .
Balls reset to 7 then up to 10.
The score reels are all at zero.
Cleaned and visually inspected D.
Cleaned and visually inspected the switches on the ball unit, front and back.
Cleaned and visually inspected the switches on the 1 pt relay and 10 pt relay.
Cleaned and visually inspected the switches on the 10s reel.
Cleaned and visually inspected the AAB relay.
The ball unit was not wanting to manually advance at one place. Cleaned the gear. lightly filed. It advances up and down manually just fine now. That is to say, it manually advances one way until the gear reaches the flat space and the other way for 10 clicks.
Plugging in the machine, the ball unit advances counter clockwise and continues trying to advance. The juggling units fire every four to five clicks. None of the ball lights 1-10 light during any of this.
Possibly a bad rivet or connection in the ball unit ?
Also, manually resetting the reset bank...
the game doesn't do anything until the start button is pressed.
the first two relays click down. Then the third relay D clicks down and the symptoms described above start.
It never gets to the 4th relay, if it is supposed to.
Quoted from undrdog:Then the third relay D clicks down and the symptoms described above start.
It never gets to the 4th relay, if it is supposed to.
I have a little something going on in a little bit, but saw your post. Once the D Relay energizes, from a
make/break switch, it transfers the current from the Subtract ball Count Unit to the Add Balls (Step Up)
Ball Count Unit. It's the D Relay that sends the current to the Step Up Coil on the Ball Count Unit..
I will play with the make break switch on D and let you know.
What tells D to switch from stepping down to stepping up?
Quoted from undrdog:What tells D to switch from stepping down to stepping up?
Do you mean what tells the Ball Count Unit to step down then step up?
Once the D Relay energizes, the Ball Count should step up..
I believe you said the D Relay does energize once the score reals zero
out and the Ball Count Unit is in the totally reset position, and then the
Ball Count's reset coil keeps firing. If the D Relay energizes, a switch from
a make/break should cut the circuit to the reset coil, and the other make/break
switch should complete the circuit to the Ball Count's Step Up coil.
Quoted from Mopar:Do you mean what tells the Ball Count Unit to step down then step up?
Quoted from Mopar:Once the D Relay energizes, from a
make/break switch, it transfers the current from the Subtract ball Count Unit to the Add Balls (Step Up)
What tells D that the ball unit has stepped down enough and to now start stepping up? Because I’m thinking the problem is there, either on the ball unit or the Jones plug along the way back to D.
I’ll check the make / break on D, for sure, but wanted to check this, too.
Quoted from undrdog:What tells D that the ball unit has stepped down enough and to now start stepping up?
Okay, so the D Relay isn't energizing(?)
If that's right, check post #136
Quoted from undrdog:either on the ball unit or the Jones plug along the way back to D.
The last machine (Trade Winds) I went though I thought there was a broken wire. So besides cleaning
the outer sides of the Jones Plugs prongs, with a file (metal side)) I went in between and slightly filed
the inside of the prongs, and that did the trick. Yes, if certain prongs aren't making good connection
with their Female mates, the D relay will not know the score reels zeroed out, or the Ball Count Unit
is in its total reset position (which is when a set of contacts on the backside of the Ball Count Unit is made),
and the D Relay won't energize because if Jones Plugs aren't truly making, the D Relay's circuitry will not
be completed..
Yes, the D relay is energizing.
From your posts, I thought the D relay powered the step down then clicked over to power the step up. I think it is not clicking over. My thought was that something must be telling D when to do that.
I’ll check it all out and post the results. Might be a day or two.
Quoted from undrdog:I thought the D relay powered the step down then clicked over to power the step up.
Yes, it transfers over to the step up once D is energized.
If you look at the D circuit on the schematics (toward the bottom), it's a direct run
from D's make/break switch and to the score motor's A1 switch. A1 is doing it's job because
that's the same switch that steps the Ball Count Unit down. Once D energizes, the BCU's
(Ball Count Unit's) reset coil should stop energizing even if the step up coil's circuitry
has a break in it. Had you carefully checked the D Relays solder tabs and space in between
the blades?
Fixed. As you thought, two lugs were touching. Sloppy soldering made it look like maybe they were supposed to be connected. I must have banged something or dragged something removing the playfield before the problem happened.
So now I can go back to the original problem I was working on before the machine wouldn't reset- the 1-4 rollovers not resetting correctly. At this point, its got to be a glitch on one of the rollover relays. Making the 1 or 4 causes the 10 pt relay to stick. Maybe any of the rollovers do that, but I only tested 1 & 4 and called it a day.
I had been working on the rollover relays when this whole thing started. The machine worked fine, but some side rollover lights were flickering. I was fixing the switches in the rollover relays. Fixed the flickering lights, broke something else. 'Cause that's the kinda guy I am.
Mopar thank you very much for your help and patience. I can take it from here. (I think. Machine From Hell and all.)
Quoted from undrdog:So now I can go back to the original problem I was working on before the machine wouldn't reset- the 1-4 rollovers not resetting correctly.
You'll want to carefully check the switches in the Rollover Relays. Once all 4 Rollover relays are energized,
the VR side of the Sequence Relay should energize. You'll maybe also want to take off the lower Card Tray
so you can more easily close and open the trough switches for inspecting..
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