Hi All-

I have three pins from the 1976-1978 era (2 EM 1 SS, 1 ea Gottlieb, WIlliams, Bally), and I have a question because I am now starting to notice that there are certain characteristics to my games, one of which slightly irritates me

This question is very specific to the following situation.

A) Hold a flipper button down
B) Leave the button depressed and let the ball hit the extended flipper near the tip of the flipper

Results for Gottlieb and Bally-
Flipper basically does not move ball bounces off a little depending on how fast its going.

Results for Williams (1976 Grand Prix)
Flipper retreats 1/16 inch or less and immediately closes EOS switch so flipper rebounds and ball is flung upwards (not hard, but it makes it 4-5 inches up the play field).

I have COMPLETELY mechanically rebuilt the flippers on the Williams (there are no original parts but for the metal assembly bracket that holds everything (note- the COILS have been replaced previously but not be me). The flippers function very very well in game play, they are nearly dead silent on a hold open, I have the EOS switch as TIGHT as I can possibly make it without the flippers buzzing when held open. What I mean to say, is if I move the EOS gap any tighter whatsoever the switch never really gets held open and it arcs across causing the coil to rapidly cycle high/low power and the flippers to vibrate a tiny bit.

So, to me, I dont see how to make this any better, I am not even sure its a problem. But what kinda make me think it is... is the fact that the gottleib and Bally mechanisms are basically identical and do NOT suffer this problem and its not like their EOS switches are gapped any tighter.

In thinking about this, its not totally clear to me how one might engineer a fix (even if its designed to operate this way)... basically, the flipper rotates, the arm hits the EOS switch and its open or its closed. The flippers are AC coils in ALL my games. So once the switch opens the high current winding is taken out and the coil is quiet and the flippers are held up... but in the Williams game, its almost like the low current (small diamater) wire in the coil is somehow too small and the hold up current is just weak enough that the flipper can quite easily be moved backwards just a tiny tiny bit by a ball (NOT a fast ball, just a normal average ball speed).

So- either I need to relace my coils (they test fine by resistance and are wired correctly- this would NOT happen if they were reversed)

OR- this is actually whats SUPPOSED to happen and its part of the game play. Its not like holding a flipper open and letting the ball run into it is a very useful trap but occasionally I do this intentionally and I am penalized for doing so on the WIlliams game. It could very well be the case the designers did this to keep me from playing this way (they also put big holes in the side lanes so you cannot trap balls by live catcing and letting the ball run back up the side lanes)...

Can someone inform me if it SHOULD play this way... I have never seen another Grand Prix (its hardly rare but its not like many arcades have these (none in my state I am aware of))....

Cause if its definately NOT supposed to do this, I clearly have a set of coils with too many windings in the lower power wire or too small diamater on the wire, because I cannot think of any other possible way this would happen.

Thanks-

To clarify from a few of the above questions proposed to me...

Switches are also new and very very well aligned. They are functioning perfectly- I am fairly convinced that there are no issues in supply voltage- the game is very powerful in the flippers (it plays amazing).

With respect to how your interpreting my EOS switch I FUBAR my description if this is how its reading.. because I meant to describe it like you did...
I have the EOS gapped so that it opens ONLY far enough not to arc- at the apex of the flip- so its as you describe it should be. This of course reflects the fact that the EOS is basically the wire powering the hard pull coil...
I get very strong flippers on this game- I too thought about the spring, but it cannot be that, because if I loosen it it would only make this problem worse and if I tighten it it would also only make the problem worse...

If its too tight it would pull back against the hold coil and cause arcing- which is not occurring.
If I loosen it, it would only enable the flipper to extend slightly further (in fact I doubt its even pulling hard enough to move the hold coil position) resulting in the ball having more flipper back stroke to gain momentum and close the EOS switch even further- resulting in an even harder flip back.

With respect to questions on length of coil stop etc and the plunger bake lite preventing full pull in.
(MISSED the quote... sorry)
I need to check this, but for sure- its able to make the full stroke and its holding up with only the hold coil active so its possible there is an issue, but I wonder, I will look... but the following is also true-

I had a buzzing issue previously, I had rebuilt the flippers with new hardware including new PBR coil stops, but I judged the bake lite plunger coil assembly (the original) to be good and put it back in. The flippers buzzed terribly on hold- someone suggested the slight rounding on the end of the coil plunger on the old assembly was not mating with the new coil stop, and to change that- I did (I had the whole kit) and it fixed that problem... so I am at least sure that the coil stop and plunger are well matched and silent. But I will check to be certain there is no mechanical block with the bakelite stopping or at least resisting full pull in (but like I said, it flips well and holds all the way up, just weakly- so maybe its being pushed on by the bake lite... will check.

I also asked someone who has a number of these games and they said its perhaps not true that every game will do this... so I think I would like to pursue this to fix my game so it does NOT do this.

I will check bake lite- I also want to see if I can change the orientation of the EOS switch stack slightly to enable to smaller gap (but I doubt this, its all ready pretty tight)... and If its not either of those I will order new coils... and if none of that fixes it I will probably live with it given the above comment...

That many Williams games do this- I was unsure- so if making my mechanism as clean as possible and changing to new coils does not fix it... then thats my Williams and thats that-

I kinda doubt its the coils... both flippers do this equally- so unless prior owner sat on the holds for an equally LONG time on each coil- its probably not the coils.

With respect to Vids suggestion...

I will reserve judgement on this until I try to fix whats there... and then if its not fixed I will play it a while and see if it continues to piss me off. Currently, I notice it but usually only when I miss a catch by being late... but sometimes it crops up and bothers me. If that continues to the point I don't mind putting a few new holes in the game then I will go for it.. . I tend to not like modding these games but I think I might do this if it keeps up, just not sure it adds anything to the play other than introducing the slightly off concept into your head that the flippers are a little broken- not that the game somehow plays differently and it was designed to do this... so I am unsure if this will bother me enough to wholesale replace them.

I think if its not the bake lite- I am not going to bother buying new coils. I will test resistance both ways and report voltage (I am nearly sure its good... the resistance of the coils I will post here and supply voltage). If they look good I will consider the fact that this is how the game plays... and decide (as I said) if I like it.

Just in case... I decide I hate it...
Question!
Are the new flippers going to be different in power? Cause if they are likely stronger I am going to need to reduce their power a bit- it might break things... they are very very powerful right now- stronger than any EM I have played in a while. I thought they were DC until I checked- they are not.