(Topic ID: 249276)

Flip a Card Pop bumper rebuild?

By Sea_Wolf

4 years ago


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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Sea_Wolf
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#3 4 years ago

The light on the red pop bumper is in the 25v section of your schematic, if you have one. It is powered by a make/break switch on the 0-9 unit which is the AS stepper in the backbox that also runs your match function. In order to be lit on the 25v side it uses a 75 ohm 10 watt resistor in order to knock the voltage down to where it won't blow the bulb right away.

It could be that the resistor has gone bad but I think more than likely your 0-9 AS stepper is not moving. Have you noticed whether or not your match lights change? If not this is more than likely your issue. You need to remove that relay from the game, it just unplugs via two jones plugs, and get it cleaned up and stepping correctly. They are fiddly but can be made to step properly. This game has two of them, on of them is the 0-9 unit we're talking about, and the other is under the playfield that is part of the spin when you land in the hole. That kicks off the spinner unit on the motor board and every time that unit make contact, it steps the spin unit under the playfield one position. If it isn't functioning properly your spin will not function properly either.

As for why your bumper is sluggish, you need to rebuild it. As a matter of course I rebuild every single bumper of every single game I take in to restore. The parts are too cheap not to do it. The bumper pulls in and is activated by the spoon switch on the bumper itself. That fires the F relay which is the red bumper relay. That in turn sends power to the bumper coil and it pulls in. You need to make sure that all the switches on the F relay are clean and adjusted properly, along with the contact on the spoon switch. If the 10 point bumpers are scoring then the problem is not with the 10 point relay. The red bumper scores 10 when not lit. There is a second switch that is open on the switch stack for the bumper where the spoon switch is. That switch is held open by the fiber yoke on the bumper mechanism. When the bumper coil pulls the plunger in that switch is allowed to close and that fires either the 10 or 100 point relay, depending on whether or not the bumper is lit.

That's the starting points for you to check. But I definitely think you should rebuild the bumper. Clean everything up good and replace all the parts and I'll bet it fires just fine. Before you do that, you can check the resistance of the bumper coil and see where it is. The proper coil is an A-4893 which should have a resistance of about 2 ohms. If you're not getting about that resistance that can be part of your issue too.

#6 4 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Thanks for all the detail. If I do rebuild the pop bumper, I’m assuming pbresource is the place to go for parts?

Absolutely

#8 4 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

A couple of things to report that I checked so far as EMsinKC suggested. The 0-9 stepper in the backbox steps up like it should. It rotates once when a 100 point rollover is hit, once when a 50 point Target is hit twice and so on. Also the match number does change with each game.
I checked the resistance on all 3 pop bumper coils and the 2 working yellow pops measure about 2.2 but the sluggish red middle pop measures 5.6.
Going to Check continuity between the pop bumper switches and bulb socket next as fixintoplay suggested.
Appreciate the help guys.

The pop bumper relay switches don't control the bulb. The switch on the 0-9 unit does that.

The circuit for the socket goes though a normally closed motor 1C and the make/break switch on the 0-9 relay. There is also the resistor. That is it. Checking continuity ad you want to do will tell you nothing.

The bulb could be bad, the socket might not be soldered correctly, one of the switches may be dirty or out of adjustment, or the resistor is bad. That's all there could be.

The switch you're looking for is on the 0-9 unit tucked up between the circuit boards. It is a make/break that changes state with each step. It has to be adjusted correctly or you'll never get a light and you'll never get 100 points for that bumper because the circuit to energize the 100 point relay also depends on that switch. If the bumper doesn't score at all you might have the issue discussed above.

The resistance in the bumper coil is too high and the coil is too weak.

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Very helpful. The lamp socket seems extra loose compared to the two working pops. I guess I’ll have to take the pop bumper apart to find out if it’s not soldered in right. I’ll check the circuit you mentioned first.
Replace the resistor and/or coil?
I saw where you had a thread on here recently that addressed issues with the spin unit. I just now realized that mine is probably not functioning correctly. It only moves exactly 2 numbers (or spots) every time you get a ball in the kickout hole. Thanks again.

You can check the underside of the playfield where the leads come though to check the solder connection. You can also check the resistor to see what is up there. I would definitely replace the coil if that resistance figure is correct.

The spin unit is a cool piece of engineering. On the motor board is the actual unit that starts the spin. It is a step up/reset stepper unit. It steps up until a maximum step up position opens a switch and the step up coil circuit is opened. When the ball goes in the hole or down the outlines it totally resets and in doing so starts the spinner. The spinner looks like a regular playfield rollunder spinner. It's attached to an arm that goes up and down with each rotation and closes a switch. That switch steps the AS spin unit one time each time the switch closes. That unit moves the lights around on the playfield until the spin stops and scores whatever it lands on.

It is imperative that the spinner unit is stepping up to the max to give a good spin and imperative that the AS spin unit is stepping properly. I spent a lot of time getting that working right when I restored my game. You can find instructions for cleaning and adjusting those AS units. They are touchy to deal with but once you clean them and get them stepping right they're pretty reliable. They can be rebuilt. PBR sells a rebuild kit for them.

If you need more help holler.

#13 4 years ago

Hard to tell what the unit is doing there. I can hear it step five times and it appears the bakelite piece that actually hits the spinner is going back, but when you hit the switch in the hole it is not coming through and hitting the spinner. It might be a case that the bakelite piece that hits the spinner is not properly located.

That unit doesn't generally need a rebuild. It's the spin unit that is an AS relay that sits on the underside of the playfield on the left side. That's usually what doesn't step properly.

#16 4 years ago

It's broken off.

You might be able to get it to work by removing it and repositioning. Or fabricate a new one.

Might call Steve Young and see if by any chance he has a used one. He's got so many used parts.

#21 4 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

If you get time someday, I’d love to see a picture of what the Bakelite is supposed to look like. It might help me with knowing if I can remake it someway.

I'll try and get a picture. It's just like on the video Mark linked, kind of teardrop shaped with a small protrusion at the point which hits the spinner and starts it going.

FWIW, it should spin even better than that one does. Mine with complete several revolutions of the lights before the spin stops.

#33 4 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

After gently cleaning the AS relay tiny stepper unit it seems that the wipers now set up but it looks like the problem is with the teardrop Bakelite piece not following thru far enough to make the spinner spin. The Bondo is holding up fine and I sanded it to a match of the picture that Pinbee sent me but it for some reason stops it’s hammering motion just under the spinner. It’s not getting stuck, it’s just not following thru that extra 1/3-1/2 inch like it does in your video.
Possible spring issue or maybe it’s not position right in the first place?

It has to go a bit past the spinner. It's adjustable. Manually step it back, if memory services it will step about 9 times until it won't step any further. There is a switch that opens at that point to open the circuit to the step up coil. It will step up 5 times the first time and then 4 the second and that's all you'll get. Then manually hit the reset plunger on the reset coil and see how it goes. It's not difficult, mostly a matter of getting it adjusted correctly. You also have to make sure that when the spinner spins the arm that has the switch on it is going up and down correctly and the switch is making good contact on each revolution.

I'm going to disagree with Mark just a bit, once you actually take an AS apart and see how it works it's not really all that difficult to reassemble. It can be touchy at times to dial in right but Gottlieb put out instructions on how to adjust them. Steve might have that on the website. If not it's usually in the manual for any game that has a manual, which unfortunately FAC does not. They kind of scared my at first too but you just have to take the plunge and go for it. They have to work properly, especially in this game because the spin is a big part of it. It's also a big part of that center bumper because there is a make/break switch on it that alternates that bumper's scoring and the light.

LOL, we've gotten so tangled up with the spinner what's the status on the original problem, the center bumper?

#35 4 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Thanks. I’m going to refer to your post later today when I see if I can adjust the mechanism so that it goes just past the spinner. The switches that the spinner get going seem to move like they should. I’ll double check again.
About the pop bumper, after measuring the resistance multiple times it was always in the 5.6 range so I ordered a new coil and it will be here Monday. I figured it was worth a shot before I tackle a rebuild. What do you think? Thanks again for all the help

Still would have rebuilt it.

Check the second switch on the pop bumper switch stack to make sure it makes when the bumper pulls in

#44 4 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

When the spinner unit does its thing, does the lit card jump around by skipping a few ahead, or does it hit each card in order? When you advance the AS relay by hand, does it do the same thing?
I expected the lit card to advance one at time but I don't have a schematic to verify that. Skipping ahead could be normal, or it could be that your AS relay is taking more than one step at a time which would indicate that it's not dialed in just yet. How far it advances is one of those touchy adjustments.

Mine was skipping spots at first. Took more adjusting on the AS to get that straightened out.

#48 4 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

That’s very interesting. A lot of detail to be aware of on this unit but it is a lot of fun getting it working. I did notice that the pawl seemed a little loose and was sliding a little to the side of the cogwheel. It might be normal to have some play there but I didn’t know. I’ll refer to your post when I get home and take a look at it. Can’t ask for better help. Many thanks to you and Scott.

That pawl has a spring on it that is part of the equation. Make sure it is on there and working correctly. On Mark's post you can see the ends of it just below the armature.

That drain score is a definite hack. Look at the outhole and outhole relay and see if you have wires there that don't belong.

Someone was trying to get extra points but in reality it's screwing you because it doesn't carry over.

#51 4 years ago

The blue wire on the X relay is correct.

Let me look at the schematic and see if I can figure out how they hacked that

#55 4 years ago

If you soldered a splash is always possible, as is moving a tab on a lamp socket where it is touching ground somewhere. This problem starting with lifting the playfield makes me think something moved and is now touching ground and causing the short.

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