(Topic ID: 275077)

Flight 2000 - MPU Repair Woes


By emsrph

37 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 53 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 hours ago by emsrph
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 3 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

D5F91F57-FE21-403F-AFB0-96904AEA916A (resized).jpeg
EE417CC2-D026-4447-AAD0-AC8DC4345B0E (resized).jpeg
4DE5AF54-916B-44D1-B0AF-B5AD03BFE6AD (resized).jpeg

There are 53 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 37 days ago

Trying to get a project game running. Got the MPU200 to boot by replacing the 5101 with NVRAM. Doesn't look like any acid damage but this NVRAM fixed the stall at two flashes. This MPU runs in my other working F2K. Except for some reason the lockout coil didn't work (but did with the original MPU).

I am dismantling the project game playfield to do a swap and placed a fully working playfield in the project cabinet. When I tried to get this MPU working initially it was with the partial playfield so thought the working playfield would solve this but it hasn't.

Sometimes i can start a game but seems like activation of upper left sling makes the MPU go into a reboot cycle. Sometimes it just reboots on it's own. It counts up to 18 and runs through all the solenoid tests and reboots, again, enters solenoid test, etc.

I have no speech but do have sounds.

I checked the test button and memory clear button and they have continuity to their board connectors and the switches work when tested with my meter.

Don't know if its a separate problem but player 3 display flickers and when I move the display the flicker stays with the player 3 location and doesn't move with the display.

Also can't add games by using the coin trip wire. Is that a symptom of some cabinet wiring issue?

Since the playfield worked and the MPU worked in a different cabinet what else should be checked? I went through the solenoid driver board but I can swap that if it could be the issue. Should I unplug the sound board or lamp board? Leave off an MPU plug??

Thanks!

#2 37 days ago

Start a game and disconnect the coin door wiring after it's started. You want to isolate that from the wiring.

If it still does it, start a game and disconnect the cabinet wiring on the MPU board (its on the right I forget which connector it is, I want to say the top right one on the mpu but not 100% on that.)

If it didn't do it the first time, you have a short in the coin door, if it didnt do it the second time, you have a short in the cabinet wiring, if it still does it you have an issue on the mpu board.

#3 37 days ago

I chased down a similar problem in my F2K. Mine would work for an hour or few minutes the reboot. Testing all voltages, could not find the problem.
I took my Fluke meters that record ( min/max) function and clipped on the the power feeding the MPU. Turns out the 5 VDC was dropping for a few milliseconds and coming back. I changed solenoid driver boards and the problem went away. So I have 1 more board to work this Winter.

#4 37 days ago

Ok, here’s what happened-

Both trials played a game until the left upper sling fired without being hit....bam reboot.

That point to where the issue is?

#5 36 days ago

Replace the slings diode and it's switch capacitor if it has one.

#6 36 days ago

Substituting a known working solenoid driver board did not make any difference. Still constant rebooting after random play time.

Replacing MPU fixed the rebooting issue with the game. Also, can now add games on the coin wire and go into self test with the button. Must be something weak on the other MPU. Any ideas to try and repair?

Still have a weird player 3 display. Instead of flickering like it did with the bad MPU it’s kind of dimming and brightening in waves moving across the display.

Speech is still out but at least the game plays.

Thanks for any further ideas.

#7 34 days ago

Ok back to the bad MPU board repair...

Removed the NVRAM from the possessed board and located two 5101 that would boot the board.

Immediately on power up the game goes right to stepping through the audits. Can’t even start a game.

Suggestions for what other chip(s) might need swapping?

#8 34 days ago

Swapped with known good game roms. Still behaving badly.

#9 34 days ago

Swap the u10 and u11 PIAs and see if the behavior changes.
The self test switch goes through U10.

#10 34 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

Swap the u10 and u11 PIAs and see if the behavior changes.
The self test switch goes through U10.

Now board doesn’t boot. Solid LED

#11 33 days ago

The one that just went into U11 is probably bad then. Swap back and see if you get the same results as originally.... was one of your PIA's an AMI brand? They tend to fail more often than the motrola ones.

#12 33 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

The one that just went into U11 is probably bad then. Swap back and see if you get the same results as originally.... was one of your PIA's an AMI brand? They tend to fail more often than the motrola ones.

They are both Motorola. When swapped back I was able to play a game and enter into diagnostics.

But the player 1 display was glowing but blank. Sound was garbled and sometimes at the wrong time.

Game then locked up. So different than originally but still not good.

Here’s front and back pics of the MPU.

Should I replace what was originally in U10 with a different PIA? Or try something else? Would testing on the bench help figure out some of this?

4DE5AF54-916B-44D1-B0AF-B5AD03BFE6AD (resized).jpegEE417CC2-D026-4447-AAD0-AC8DC4345B0E (resized).jpeg

#13 33 days ago

Had some time so tried a couple things...

Inserted new 6821 in U10 of problem board- MPU locked on and didn’t boot.

Inserted known good U10 from working board into problem board. Booted but displays didn’t work right and speech was garbled.

Put old ‘suspect’ U10 in working board. Game play was fine.

So it seems there is a bad U10 socket on the non-working board or some other explanation?

1 week later
#14 25 days ago

Back at trying to fix this MPU. Used my meter on all U10 traces and they have continuity with the chip legs. So socket appears to be good. IC is good.

Could this locking up, rebooting and sometimes going straight into audits be caused by what looks like some overheating in the picture near U14?

The big 2 watt resistor R11 looks like it cooked R2 above it and there is soot on the 4572 chip right above that.

Do you think replacing any of those components will cure the MPU problem? Also, is there a way to test this on the bench instead of in the machine?

D5F91F57-FE21-403F-AFB0-96904AEA916A (resized).jpeg
2 weeks later
#15 8 days ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Back at trying to fix this MPU. Used my meter on all U10 traces and they have continuity with the chip legs. So socket appears to be good. IC is good.
Could this locking up, rebooting and sometimes going straight into audits be caused by what looks like some overheating in the picture near U14?
The big 2 watt resistor R11 looks like it cooked R2 above it and there is soot on the 4572 chip right above that.
Do you think replacing any of those components will cure the MPU problem? Also, is there a way to test this on the bench instead of in the machine?
[quoted image]

Rebuilt the lower left portion with corrosion kit parts, replaced the smoked U14 chip and U10. MPU boots but will not start a game. Ball walker will cycle if balls are not in the trough. Then goes into attract mode.

This game does play with a different MPU.

The player one display is blank and other displays cycle between ‘0000000’ on each player 2,3,4 and ‘600000’, ‘00’, ‘8000’. Credit display ‘20’.

The game no longer continuously reboots and can go into self test with coin door button (couldn’t before the repairs). During solenoid test the speech is saying the wrong words.

Glad there is some improvement but still not there...Any ideas?

#17 7 days ago

Saga continues...with some more improvement although still issues

Changed the 5101s back to the NVRAM in case it was a speed issue. While board was out installed new J1-4 MPU header pins. Maybe should have done one thing at a time but- can now start and play a game (and with no rebooting).

But now displays are just aglow and maybe some wrong solenoids firing and wrong sounds. When I go into self-test the displays work except for Player 1. I double checked my header work and there are no shorts or bad connections.

Dear diary...what to try next?

#18 7 days ago

how about the eprom sockets at this point.... flaky response with know good chips (PIA, CPU, RAM) next thing up are the roms and their sockets.

#19 7 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

how about the eprom sockets at this point.... flaky response with know good chips (PIA, CPU, RAM) next thing up are the roms and their sockets.

Gonna show my lack of knowledge....which ones are the eproms vs roms? U1,U2,U5 and U6 all have the windows on them (they're the eproms)? If so, which ones are the roms? Thanks!

#20 7 days ago

roms/eproms I'm using interchangeably here - all f2k's shipped with eproms AFAIK.

The rom sockets are u1, u2, u5, and u6.

#21 7 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

roms/eproms I'm using interchangeably here - all f2k's shipped with eproms AFAIK.
The rom sockets are u1, u2, u5, and u6.

Got it. Thanks.

May take a bit but will fire up my Hakko and get busy.

#22 7 days ago

Check them first by reseating the chips if you haven't done that already.

#23 3 days ago

Buzzed all EPROM chip legs and they have continuity.

Since displays, sounds and solenoids were the issue I changed out the U10 and U11 sockets for the PIAs. Also replaced the last header J5.

Clearing the audits I can now play the machine but not totally working right. Some controlled lights flicker at a rapid rate and don’t always come on or off when they are supposed to. Sounds are still wonky and at the wrong time.

Could this be the result of a support chip problem and not the usual suspects?

Plus all this farting around broke the vocalizer. No speech now even with a good MPU.

#24 3 days ago

Trying to digest the Bally Repair Procedure guide FO 560-3 to figure out how to proceed...already invested many hours into this and would like to cross the finish line.

The document talks about using an AID probe- is that similar to a logic probe?

Says erratic game operation may be caused by failed U19 or U20 (also U14 but I replaced that to cure the constant re-booting).

Also that flickering lights and solenoid issues could be caused by a fault on the BUS line that could be U17, U18, U19.

Any of that sound like the right track? How do I test those?

Attempting to teach myself but spinning my wheels. Appreciate any guidance with this.

#25 3 days ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Trying to digest the Bally Repair Procedure guide FO 560-3 to figure out how to proceed...already invested many hours into this and would like to cross the finish line.
The document talks about using an AID probe- is that similar to a logic probe?
Says erratic game operation may be caused by failed U19 or U20 (also U14 but I replaced that to cure the constant re-booting).
Also that flickering lights and solenoid issues could be caused by a fault on the BUS line that could be U17, U18, U19.
Any of that sound like the right track? How do I test those?
Attempting to teach myself but spinning my wheels. Appreciate any guidance with this.

I can't remember exactly, but I think people have had failure in the gates around VUA clock and etc used in triggering that caused odd operation and random lockups, so its possible. Maybe quench remembers as I think he posted in one of those threads. None the less you can check with a logic probe and step through all the gates around the VUA - Q2 area. I think that is what the 560-3 book is talking about.

If you replaced U14 make sure you use CD4049UB or MC14049UB. I have had trouble with TC4049B causing the zero cross detector to kick randomly making each zero position lamp on all four lamp board decoders flicker. UB or Unbuffered type being needed.

Can unplug the speech pass through stuff and go right to the lamp board to make sure the speech card is not introducing a problem with the lamp signals.

#26 2 days ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I can't remember exactly, but I think people have had failure in the gates around VUA clock and etc used in triggering that caused odd operation and random lockups, so its possible. Maybe quench remembers as I think he posted in one of those threads. None the less you can check with a logic probe and step through all the gates around the VUA - Q2 area. I think that is what the 560-3 book is talking about.
If you replaced U14 make sure you use CD4049UB or MC14049UB. I have had trouble with TC4049B causing the zero cross detector to kick randomly making each zero position lamp on all four lamp board decoders flicker. UB or Unbuffered type being needed.
Can unplug the speech pass through stuff and go right to the lamp board to make sure the speech card is not introducing a problem with the lamp signals.

Thanks for the info Andrew.

I replaced the U14 with a 4572 because it's an MPU-200. This new chip is CD4572UBE. That one ok?

So to check the VUA-Q2, that would be U15 pins 3,4,5,6 or something else? Is this done on the bench or in the game during attract mode or after starting a game?

I took the speech board out of the loop and no change. Still lamp flickering and sounds at wrong time.

#27 2 days ago

Took some readings on the bench. MPU boots completely 7 flashes (faking the last one with a jumper).

Looks like the U19 pins I tested are not pulsing at all and some of U15 too? Need some interpretation please:

U9 pins 3, 36, 37 pulsing
U10 pin 18 = H/L/Pulse

U12
pin 1 = Low
pins 2, 5, 6 = no activity
pin 3 = H/Pulse
pins 4, 8 = High
pin 7 = Pulse

U15
pins 3, 4 = Low
pin 5 = H/L/Pulse
pin 6 = High

U19
pins 8, 9, 11 = High
pins 10, 12 = Low

This looks not right? Also, please let me know if there are other measurements to take. Thank you.

EDIT- The recently replaced U14 is pulsing on tested pins 11 and 12

#28 1 day ago

finally found one of the threads I was thinking of with a similar sounding symptom.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-playboy-random-resets-flickering-insert-leds#post-4680278

Similar circuit is used in MPU200 and its drawn near the CPU chip.

Quoted from emsrph:

U15
pins 3, 4 = Low

That is a problem.
u15 pin 4 should be pulse like VMA.

Check...
U18 P6 (pulse)
U19 pin 9 (high)
u19 pin 10 (pulse) same as CPU VMA
U19 pin 8 (pulse)

the UBE part is what you want for u14. I forgot Stern used that goofy combination chip where it has a few nand and inverters or whatever it is one chip.

#29 1 day ago

Thanks, I’ll check the U18 pin 6 in the morning. For U19 I got no pulsing:

U19
pins 8, 9, 11 = High
pins 10, 12 = Low

#30 1 day ago
Quoted from emsrph:

U19
pins 8, 9, 11 = High
pins 10, 12 = Low

If pin 10 of U19 is stuck low then the board should be dead (not booting with locked LED).
Change the CMOS/TTL switch on the logic probe and redo the readings because the logic probe might not be interpreting logic states properly against the voltage levels in that circuit.

#31 1 day ago
Quoted from Quench:

If pin 10 of U19 is stuck low then the board should be dead (not booting with locked LED).
Change the CMOS/TTL switch on the logic probe and redo the readings because the logic probe might not be interpreting logic states properly against the voltage levels in that circuit.

This morning didn’t make any changes but I’m getting different readings on U15 and U19. MPU again boots with 7 flashes. Logic probe left on CMOS setting.

U15
pins 3, 4, 6 = H/L/P
pin 5 = High

U19
pins 8, 10, 12 = H/L/P
pin 9 = High
pin 11 = H/P

U18
pin 6 = H/L/P

Turned off and rebooted. Tested again and everything the same except U15 pin 5. Now instead of stuck High it is H/L/P.

Thoughts on why the results keep changing?

#32 1 day ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Logic probe left on CMOS setting.

For diagnosing the MPU board, set the logic probe to TTL. The readings will make more sense.

BTW, sorry I've come here late, what's the current issue you're trying to fix?

#33 1 day ago
Quoted from Quench:

For diagnosing the MPU board, set the logic probe to TTL. The readings will make more sense.
BTW, sorry I've come here late, what's the current issue you're trying to fix?

Hey quench! Thanks for the help.

Problem with this board was that it was resetting constantly. Replaced all reset components and new U14 cured that. Reinstalled NVRAM and cleared audits to get board booting and game plays.

Replaced all headers and U10 and U11 sockets. Triple checked all connections to everywhere. EPROMs all have continuity from legs to board.

But now during game play controlled incandescent lamps flicker quickly and don’t always go on or off at right time. Sounds play at wrong times and when had VSU working (that you helped me fix) it said wrong words. Speech is now busted again

Set my logic probe to TTL and here are the readings:

U9 pins 3, 36 and 37 pulsing

U12
pin 1 = Low
pins 4, 5, 8 = High
pins 2, 6 = H/P
pins 3, 7 = H/L/P

U14
pin 11 = H/P
pin 12 = H/L/P

U15
pins 3, 4, 5, 6 = H/L/P

U19
pins 8, 10, 12 = H/L/P
pin 9 = High
pin 11 = H/P

U18 pin 6 = H/L/P

U10 pin 18 = H/L/P

Any of that look wonky?

#34 1 day ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Any of that look wonky?

All those readings look ok. Whats on U19 pin 13?

First guess is you might have an open address line issue at one of the RAM chip sockets.
Are you running 5101's at the moment or NVRAM?

If you have any device that can measure frequency, what frequency do you measure at:
U12 pin 3
U14 pin 1
U9 pin 3 and 37
U16 pin 10

#35 1 day ago
Quoted from Quench:

All those readings look ok. Whats on U19 pin 13?
First guess is you might have an open address line issue at one of the RAM chip sockets.
Are you running 5101's at the moment or NVRAM?
If you have any device that can measure frequency, what frequency do you measure at:
U12 pin 3
U14 pin 1
U9 pin 3 and 37
U16 pin 10

Using an NVRAM that fits into both U8 and U13 sockets.

U19 pin 13 and U16 pin 10 are both H/L/P

Can't measure frequency, but maybe some voltages help:

TP 5 = 4.44 (from bench computer power supply, a little low?)

U12 pin 3 = 3.99 v

U14 pin 1 = 0.46 v

U9
pin 3 = 2.14 v
pin 37 = 2.21 v
pin 40 = 4.77 v

U16 pin 10 = 1.85v

U19 pin 13 = 2.24 v

How would I measure an open address line issue at one of the RAM chip sockets?

Thank you

#36 1 day ago
Quoted from emsrph:

How would I measure an open address line issue at one of the RAM chip sockets?
Thank you

continuity check from cpu chip leg to nvram module. can also use the logic probe on the nvram module. check each address and data and make sure are in the same sate as ones on the CPU.

Are the displays and switches working ok? Problem at the PIA chips with lamps will usually also show as problems with switches and the displays. It is possible for the PIA chip to pass the power on self test but still have a problem.

#37 1 day ago
Quoted from barakandl:

continuity check from cpu chip leg to nvram module. can also use the logic probe on the nvram module. check each address and data and make sure are in the same sate as ones on the CPU.
Are the displays and switches working ok? Problem at the PIA chips with lamps will usually also show as problems with switches and the displays. It is possible for the PIA chip to pass the power on self test but still have a problem.

I did verify each NVRAM contact on top of the little board has connection to the socket trace on the bottom of the MPU board. But I’ll see with logic probe if they match the CPU activity.

I’d have to put board back in game to check displays. They were sometimes missing entirely on one player but perfect in self test. Think that is fixed now.

Switches were registering and game solenoids were fine. Lamps just not doing what they were supposed to (flickering and not turning off). Sound though was randomly triggering.

U10 and U11 came out of a working board where this game was behaving well.

#38 1 day ago

Clock circuit correct? It almost sounds like it's set to the bally speed based on the randomness, or that the caps are bad/shorted.

Do you have a scope or a frequency counter to check the clock speed?

#39 1 day ago
Quoted from slochar:

Clock circuit correct? It almost sounds like it's set to the bally speed based on the randomness, or that the caps are bad/shorted.
Do you have a scope or a frequency counter to check the clock speed?

Don’t have a scope or way to check frequency.

Which caps to check (although don’t have capacitor tester) and/or replace?

Here’s a video of the flicker during attract mode

#40 1 day ago

these boards are pretty cheap, you have been at this for a month. Would it not be easier to just buy a weebly and be done?

#41 1 day ago
Quoted from woody76:

these boards are pretty cheap, you have been at this for a month. Would it not be easier to just buy a weebly and be done?

Yeah I’ll probably end up there. I’ve bought from Andrew and like his products and will support him.

It would be nice though to get this board running for the satisfaction. I’ve got the time and if a $1 chip can fix it, why not. Plus it’s good to learn something new.

#42 20 hours ago
Quoted from emsrph:

TP 5 = 4.44 (from bench computer power supply, a little low?)

It's too low. Put an extra load on the computer power supply like an old hard-drive if you have one in case the power supply is limping. Or check if you're getting voltage loss on your connections.

Quoted from emsrph:

Here’s a video of the flicker during attract mode

That looks a little like an open circuit on the Lamp Strobe #1 signal to the lamp driver board. Can you post a video showing the whole playfield in attract mode?

slochar, is the lamp data stored in the NVRAM or the 6810?

#43 10 hours ago
Quoted from Quench:

slochar, is the lamp data stored in the NVRAM or the 6810?

6810

#44 10 hours ago

Cheers.

emsrph check continuity on the address lines from the U9 CPU to the U7 6810 RAM chip.

#45 8 hours ago
Quoted from Quench:

It's too low. Put an extra load on the computer power supply like an old hard-drive if you have one in case the power supply is limping. Or check if you're getting voltage loss on your connections.

That looks a little like an open circuit on the Lamp Strobe #1 signal to the lamp driver board. Can you post a video showing the whole playfield in attract mode?
slochar, is the lamp data stored in the NVRAM or the 6810?

Serious progress here. You guys are really good detectives.

Did some searching on Lamp Strobe #1 that you brought up and found your thread https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/eight-ball-deluxe-sound-problem#post-5608820 talking about Orange/White wire. Turns out my MPU J1-11 pin was broken in female connector. Don't know why it always worked with one MPU and not this suspect one? Crimped new pin and lights, sound, and VOICE!! are back to normal. Yay!!

Only thing that is not back is the credit display will show ball in play but after game over is blank. All digits do work in self test though. Is that some other latch signal or wire that needs tracking down?

#46 8 hours ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Only thing that is not back is the credit display will show ball in play but after game over is blank. All digits do work in self test though. Is that some other latch signal or wire that needs tracking down?

Is match turned off in the dip switch?

#47 7 hours ago
Quoted from slochar:

Is match turned off in the dip switch?

Match Feature 21 and Credit Display 20 are ON and worked before all this repair activity.

Could be another connector pin busted with all the in and out of the board? I’ll check J1-24 for the credit display

#48 7 hours ago

Could be. Have you completely repinned the connectors yet? They do fatigue. I usually pull a couple out randomly when I get a game to assess their general condition. Most of the time they need to be replaced, even if it "worked", to be reliable.

#49 7 hours ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Crimped new pin and lights, sound, and VOICE!! are back to normal. Yay!!

Nice

Quoted from emsrph:

Only thing that is not back is the credit display will show ball in play but after game over is blank.

Can you clarify:

In game, Credit display window shows:
In game, Ball in Play / Match display window shows:
At Game Over, Credit display window shows:
At Game Over, Ball in Play / Match display window shows:

#50 7 hours ago

Haven’t re-pinned the connectors yet. After doing the MPU headers and IC sockets, at least for me, the female connectors will be a breeze.

In game, Credit display window shows: Nothing
In game, Ball in Play / Match display window shows: 1,2, or 3
At Game Over, Credit display window shows: Nothing
At Game Over, Ball in Play / Match display window shows: Nothing

In self test all digits are good on credit display.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 9.00
Cabinet Parts
Third Coast Pinball
From: $ 18.00
Apparel - Men
Pinside Shop
$ 49.99
Electronics
PinballElectronics.com
$ 149.95
Boards
Allteksystems
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Fort Worth, TX
From: $ 45.00
Displays
PinballSolutions.eu
$ 100.00
Playfield - Protection
Beehive Pinball Co.
$ 149.00
There are 53 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside