Good idea - I may shuffle the coil stops. When your friend's coil stops get magnetized, do they stay that way or is the effect transient?
Good idea - I may shuffle the coil stops. When your friend's coil stops get magnetized, do they stay that way or is the effect transient?
Quoted from clodpole:Good idea - I may shuffle the coil stops. When your friend's coil stops get magnetized, do they stay that way or is the effect transient?
Stay that way. It's very slight, a screw driver will be attracted to the stop and you can feel slight (I mean slight) pull when you take it away. The flippers 'work' but I don't like the idea that stuff gets magnetized, tells me it's made out of the wrong materials.
Since the originals don't do this, I don't think replacements should either.
I'm going to duplicate your screwdriver test. I installed a whole new assembly after an EOS broke, 'cause I noticed a stripped hole under the solenoid bracket. Foolishly, I thought "I might as well just put in a new assembly". Now, that flipper has a weird, intermittent sticking behavior.
I'll be gone for a while but would like to continue the conversation.
Quoted from clodpole:I'm going to duplicate your screwdriver test. I installed a whole new assembly after an EOS broke, 'cause I noticed a stripped hole under the solenoid bracket. Foolishly, I thought "I might as well just put in a new assembly". Now, that flipper has a weird, intermittent sticking behavior.
I'll be gone for a while but would like to continue the conversation.
My left flipper has the same sticking issue and I also replaced the whole flipper assembly last year. I never figured out exactly what was causing it.
Quoted from DanMarino:My left flipper has the same sticking issue and I also replaced the whole flipper assembly last year. I never figured out exactly what was causing it.
We can start a mini-club: guys with sticky new flipper assemblies!
Quoted from clodpole:We can start a mini-club: guys with sticky new flipper assemblies!
haha. The right side is totally fine though, so I don't understand why one would be affected and not the other.
Both assemblies the same? In my case, the only difference is EOS switches. The left (sticky) side has a slightly shorter, rounded EOS. I'm adjusting it today to see if it makes a difference.
Quoted from slochar:Stay that way. It's very slight, a screw driver will be attracted to the stop and you can feel slight (I mean slight) pull when you take it away. The flippers 'work' but I don't like the idea that stuff gets magnetized, tells me it's made out of the wrong materials.
Since the originals don't do this, I don't think replacements should either.
One more data point, slochar - my coil stops attract a magnetic screwdriver as well.
Quoted from clodpole:One more data point, slochar - my coil stops attract a magnetic screwdriver as well.
Yep, either it's a coil stop made for AC coils (which will work with DC AFAIK) or it's become magnetized.
When I was saying slight magnetism, it's on both the plate and the coil stop. We didn't take apart the flipper (it was before/during a tournament) to see if the plunger was slightly magnetized as well.
All I know is the original parts don't have this issue
Still flippers, but different issue: Once in a bunch of flips, my right flipper provokes the upper left slingshot kicker to fire weakly. I noticed it sometime after I replaced the original solenoid driver board with a new Alltek one recently.
I'm thinking I should start by checking the diodes on the right flipper solenoid. Is that a resonable beginning?
Quoted from clodpole:Still flippers, but different issue: Once in a bunch of flips, my right flipper provokes the upper left slingshot kicker to fire weakly. I noticed it sometime after I replaced the original solenoid driver board with a new Alltek one recently.
I'm thinking I should start by checking the diodes on the right flipper solenoid. Is that a resonable beginning?
It sounds like a phantom switch closure. My upper left sling fires alot when playing a game.
Quoted from Lovef2k:It sounds like a phantom switch closure. My upper left sling fires alot when playing a game.
Could the violence of the flipper motion vibrate a solder joint or connection?
Quoted from slochar:If you have a capacitor on the sling temporarily remove one leg and test.
I'll do that - probably Thursday, and let you know. Thanks.
Quoted from clodpole:Could the violence of the flipper motion vibrate a solder joint or connection?
It could but I have the switches gapped far enough apart to prevent that. I have had this issue on games after doing pf swaps and I don't know why. On bally games it is a pop bumper phantom. I tapped on pf and side of cab and the pops or slings don't activate, but do when flippers are.
Quoted from Lovef2k:It could but I have the switches gapped far enough apart to prevent that. I have had this issue on games after doing pf swaps and I don't know why. On bally games it is a pop bumper phantom. I tapped on pf and side of cab and the pops or slings don't activate, but do when flippers are.
I have a friend who's routed pinball games for 50 years. He says "You can get in trouble with an EM, but if you really want to f__k yourself royal, get a solid state!".
It's interesting how many weird effects these old solid states can display. I put an Alltek SDU in recently, to match the Alltek MPU, and the big burp sound on power-up went away. This morning it's back!
Quoted from slochar:If you have a capacitor on the sling temporarily remove one leg and test.
I opened it up this morning and my game doesn't have capacitors on the slings. Would you expect it to have them?
Quoted from clodpole:I opened it up this morning and my game doesn't have capacitors on the slings. Would you expect it to have them?
Some have them some don't. Since it doesn't on ward troubleshooting. When you get the phantom sling do you get score and sound as well?
Quoted from slochar:Some have them some don't. Since it doesn't on ward troubleshooting. When you get the phantom sling do you get score and sound as well?
Pretty sure no sound or score - just a single kick. It seems slightly associated with releasing the flipper. If you trap the ball and hold it, then release it you can sometimes provoke the phantom kick. Otherwise it just kicks intermittently in the heat of flipper action.
...a little more data: definitely no sound, but I can't look up fast enough to see if any score changes when the phantom kick occurs.
I did detach one leg of each diode on the right flipper solenoid and the diodes test OK.
I read on other threads that adding capacitors to the flipper switches helps reduce the phantom hits. I haven't tried it yet but easy enough to do.
Quoted from Lovef2k:I read on other threads that adding capacitors to the flipper switches helps reduce the phantom hits. I haven't tried it yet but easy enough to do.
That's interesting. I'm willing to try that if it seems like it will help.
I sent a note off to Alltek to see if they have any suggestions as well.
To be honest, if I lost the big burp and my 3-drop reset problem in exchange for getting intermittent kicker hits, it's not a bad trade.
Here's a bit more data: the phantom kick occurs very predictably if I hold either flipper up to trap a ball, and then release the flipper gradually (as compared to instantaneously).
Thoughts? Would adding caps to the flipper buttons help?
As always, I appreciate the help!
Quoted from clodpole:Here's a bit more data: the phantom kick occurs very predictably if I hold either flipper up to trap a ball, and then release the flipper gradually (as compared to instantaneously).
Thoughts? Would adding caps to the flipper buttons help?
As always, I appreciate the help!
I'm not 100% sure about this. I read I think on the ebd thread that it's some kind of feedback or electromagnetic field that causes this. I do know that on a higher voltage circuit the arc occurs when the connection is broken not made. So releasing the flipper button slowly may be cause a longer or stronger arc?
The weird thing is that it only happens to me after doing pf swaps. I always add new diodes to all of the switches and new caps. I wonder if today's parts have something to do with it. Inferior components? IDK.
Adding the caps is a cheap way to see if it helps. If not, at least it may prolong the life of the flipper switches.
There's more on this subject somewhere here on pinside. I need to find it.
Thanks. I spoke with Dave at Alltek and he also thought it'd be worth trying caps on the slings. I brought up flipper button caps and he said "why not try?".
It looks like Bally/Stern slings may use .047uf 100V caps, but what would you try on the flipper buttons?
Note: you can only cap the +43 volt circuit to a certain point.
Till the voltage gets so smoothed out that the game stops functioning.
Zero crossing, uses the +43 volts to turn on and off the solenoids/lamps/interrupt timing.
Quoted from vec-tor:Note: you can only cap the +43 volt circuit to a certain point.
Till the voltage gets so smoothed out that the game stops functioning.
Zero crossing, uses the +43 volts to turn on and off the solenoids/lamps/interrupt timing.
Are you saying it'd be better if we only put caps on the upper left sling? Originally, according to the schematic, our game had caps only on the upper right sling. They got removed before the game got to us.
Just don't put a cap on both sling switches. Since they're wired together, you only need one cap and one diode for the two switches.
I've never heard of putting a cap on the actual cabinet flipper switch though I guess Williams did that at some point. gdonovan added these to his EOS switches, similar to later Bally/Williams mechs, to eliminate phantom triggers. https://www.pinballlife.com/22uf-250v-axial-capacitor.html
disclaimer: I know nothing about electronics. I'm sure Quench could help.
Screen Shot 2022-07-26 at 3.45.55 PM (resized).pngQuoted from clodpole:Are you saying it'd be better if we only put caps on the upper left sling? Originally, according to the schematic, our game had caps only on the upper right sling. They got removed before the game got to us.
You can add switch caps.
Stern had switch caps on all slingshot switches.
Just like play_pinball said.
The problem arises with adding caps to the +43 volt flipper circuitry.
Thanks - I'll stick to the slingshot switches.
Before we get too much farther down that path, here's the original problem: holding either flipper up and then releasing (especially releasing gradually) fires the upper left sling once.
In regard to this and not any other problem, would caps help?
Quoted from play_pinball:Just don't put a cap on both sling switches. Since they're wired together, you only need one cap and one diode for the two switches.
I've never heard of putting a cap on the actual cabinet flipper switch though I guess Williams did that at some point. gdonovan added these to his EOS switches, similar to later Bally/Williams mechs, to eliminate phantom triggers. https://www.pinballlife.com/22uf-250v-axial-capacitor.html
disclaimer: I know nothing about electronics. I'm sure Quench could help.
[quoted image]
Caps on EOS switches are common on Williams which reduce electrical noise and greatly reduce the arc on the switch contacts. Flipper button contacts also benefit from this, early Data East titles had them along with several other brands. Caps on the flipper coil EOS switches on my Seawitch from Scratch greatly reduced phantom coil operation and now I install them on everything.
Quoted from gdonovan:Caps on EOS switches are common on Williams which reduce electrical noise and greatly reduce the arc on the switch contacts. Flipper button contacts also benefit from this, early Data East titles had them along with several other brands. Caps on the flipper coil EOS switches on my Seawitch from Scratch greatly reduced phantom coil operation and now I install them on everything.
That's interesting - just on the flipper EOS switch, from one tab to the other?
What rating of cap do you use?
2.2uF 250V non polarity cap hooked across the EOS switch.
I ran mine on the flipper coil terminal end- power feed terminal and center terminal. The power feed terminal will have two wires on it, the other runs down to the EOS.
For $2.50 each worth giving a try. Extend the life of your EOS at least.
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C2.2M250VA-NP
f92f5f8b8601daaba9f49623592519b52ae986b3 (resized).jpgQuoted from gdonovan:2.2uF 250V non polarity cap hooked across the EOS switch.
I ran mine on the flipper coil terminal end- power feed terminal and center terminal. The power feed terminal will have two wires on it, the other runs down to the EOS.
For $2.50 each worth giving a try. Extend the life of your EOS at least.
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C2.2M250VA-NP[quoted image]
Sorry for the delay; Covid got in the way.... Anyway, I ordered those capacitors this morning. I'll report when there's news. Thanks.
Update #1: I installed a cap on the non-diode slingshot switch. It makes the slingshot machine-gun, and doesn't eliminate the phantom trigger from the flippers.
So, that's restored to as-before.
Next, a 2.2uF non-polarized cap on one of the flipper EOS switches. gdonovan - did you solder to the solenoid tabs rather than the actual EOS switch tabs for a reason?
Quoted from clodpole:Update #1: I installed a cap on the non-diode slingshot switch. It makes the slingshot machine-gun, and doesn't eliminate the phantom trigger from the flippers.
So, that's restored to as-before.
Next, a 2.2uF non-polarized cap on one of the flipper EOS switches. gdonovan - did you solder to the solenoid tabs rather than the actual EOS switch tabs for a reason?
Which ever is convenient.
Update #2: I installed both 2.2uF caps (see pics) and the phantom upper left slingshot kick was still the same.
My impression was that the flippers were sluggish with the caps in, but that's just my impression. Anyway, I took 'em back out and put things back to original. It's about as far as I want to chase this, as it's not really that big of an annoyance.
Thanks for the help - I truly appreciate it. Every solid state game I've owned had one "feature". I guess this is the one for F2K.
IMG_2697 (resized).JPGIMG_2698 (resized).JPGI haven't looked into this yet guys, but was wondering on your quick suggestions for what could be going on with my Flight 2000. My son and I played a two player game on Saturday night. My son was Player 1 and I Player 2. We played a few games and we both got 2 balls locked in the ball locker mechanism. For some reason the Second Stage Go light did not illuminate for my son. However, the Second Stage Go light did work for me. My son also played some single player games and Second Stage Go light continued to not work for him. Any thoughts about why it would not work for Player 1 only?
Thanks,
Tom
Quoted from DanMarino:I haven't looked into this yet guys, but was wondering on your quick suggestions for what could be going on with my Flight 2000. My son and I played a two player game on Saturday night. My son was Player 1 and I Player 2. We played a few games and we both got 2 balls locked in the ball locker mechanism. For some reason the Second Stage Go light did not illuminate for my son. However, the Second Stage Go light did work for me. My son also played some single player games and Second Stage Go light continued to not work for him. Any thoughts about why it would not work for Player 1 only?
Thanks,
Tom
1) Put game in lamp test.
Does lamp work?
2) Check ball walker switch... is it clean?
2a) does the balls hangup on any part of the walker assembly?
Thanks, I'll try to take a look at it this weekend. I just thought it really strange that the Apollo 2 light worked for player #2, but not for player #1.
Quoted from DanMarino:Thanks, I'll try to take a look at it this weekend. I just thought it really strange that the Apollo 2 light worked for player #2, but not for player #1.
It could be because you as player 1 already had 2 balls in the staging area. Player 2 would have to lock a ball there 2 times to light Apollo 2 even if there are 2 balls locked already.
Quoted from Lovef2k:It could be because you as player 1 already had 2 balls in the staging area. Player 2 would have to lock a ball there 2 times to light Apollo 2 even if there are 2 balls locked already.
Nevermind I read it wrong. You were player 2.
If you got multiball it takes away everyone's locks even if you put balls back in. Kind of unfair.
Stock software only that behavior.
Please join Dave and George as they review and play F2K:
The Classic Pinball Podcast
Downloadable here:
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Accessible to stream via any of the links below:
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https://open.spotify.com/show/6JGvAzDFwCSJUwwWgBMCDd
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https://overcast.fm/itunes1469743456/the-classic-pinball-podcast
Picked up a project Flight 2000 yesterday. Needs some TLC. To start with, I need a backglass and plastic set. I see them available from CPR and Marcos. Anyone on this forum have these in decent used condition willing to sell?
Can anyone confirm the dimensions of the playfield glass on Flight 2000? I need to order glass and think I know what it should be, but just want to check. Thanks.
Quoted from JethroP:Can anyone confirm the dimensions of the playfield glass on Flight 2000? I need to order glass and think I know what it should be, but just want to check. Thanks.
Do the glass dimensions on Marcos look about right when measured against your machine?
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/1E-265-GW
Quoted from Quench:Do the glass dimensions on Marcos look about right when measured against your machine?
Yes, but was thinking 1/16" narrower. I don't have an old glass to compare with, and this wide body is different dimensions than the Paragon or Future Spa I have. I'll probably go with the Marcos dimensions if I don't get a confirmation from anyone here who owns a Flight 2000.
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