(Topic ID: 254085)

Flash Gordon lamps -- flashing in unison (when they should be solid)

By Nokoro

4 years ago


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  • 31 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Quench
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#1 4 years ago

Hi. I'm having an issue where the lamps associated with the mini-bonus ring flash in unison when they should be solid. All other lamps seem to work in the game and remain solid (with the exception of the 2 in the main bonus ring which also seems to flash). The game has all non-ghosting LEDS. Here is a video:

I'm a novice when it comes to lamp issues. I know sometimes the old Bally lamps can be inconsistent, but this doesn't seem to be an issue with one of the lamps just occasionally not working or flickering. They flash regularly and in unison, and it is focused on the mini-bonus ring.

Could this be a board issue? I am no expert in looking at schematics, but each of these numbered mini-lamp lights seems to go to a different pin on the board, so they don't seem to originate from the same area on the board. Again, I could be wrong about this, but that's what it looks like. The game has the original Bally lamp driver board and aux lamp board. I'm not adverse to buying new boards, but I hate to spend the money if that's not the problem.

Could it be an issue with something on the playfield? Don't the lamps each have an individual wire, making it unlikely that a wiring issue would cause all lamps to behave this way? Or, could there be one cause?

Any thoughts are very much appreciated, since I'm bit out of my element on this one. Thanks!

#2 4 years ago

I'd start by pulling all the LED's out in those sockets and replace with #47 lamps.

Feature lamps all share the same power source from the braid under the PF. Each is grounded thru the lamp board as directed by the MPU.

#3 4 years ago

Are you suggesting that I replace those LEDs with incandescents to see if the problem relates to the use of LEDs? If so, could I just replace one to see if it improved that particular lamp?

I do find it strange that it is only this one ring of lights that is the issue. If the power is supplied by the braid, could there be something up with the braid as it enters that circle of lights?

#4 4 years ago

Start with one replacement bulb, put in a 47.

I'll lift the PF on my FG and check the braid layout. The GI lighting braid if crossed to the feature light braid could also cause that problem.

#5 4 years ago

Mini bonus ring braid is to all the lights in that circle. What happens on a lamp test? (1st push of the test button inside coin door).

#6 4 years ago

I replaced one of the bulbs with an incandescent 47. The replaced bulb was solid while the other LEDs were flashing.

The mini bonus ring also flashes in lamp test while the other lights don't.

Is it strange that the LEDs don't work in that ring but work everywhere else?

#7 4 years ago

So in lamp test the only feature lights that flash are in the mini bonus ring? No other feature lights are flashing? When 1st powered on and in attract mode, the only feature lights that cycle are the ones in the mini bonus circle?

#8 4 years ago
Quoted from tomdrum:

So in lamp test the only feature lights that flash are in the mini bonus ring? No other feature lights are flashing? When 1st powered on and in attract mode, the only feature lights that cycle are the ones in the mini bonus circle?

Oh no. Sorry. They all flash but in lamp test mode, the mini ones flash quickly between the intervals.

#9 4 years ago

I'd replace all the suspect LED's and stick in #47's. Had a similar issue on my Xenon. I's assume the one #47 is behaving properly in test mode?

#10 4 years ago

Sorry. I meant they flash quickly during the on intervals whereas the others stay solid during the on.

#11 4 years ago
Quoted from tomdrum:

I'd replace all the suspect LED's and stick in #47's. Had a similar issue on my Xenon. I's assume the one #47 is behaving properly in test mode?

So, am I unable to have LEDs in that ring? That seems strange. Shouldn’t there be a cause that I can correct? Would one of the newer lamp driver boards fix the issue? They are supposed to be more LED compatible.

#12 4 years ago

Alltek and Weebly make replacement lamp boards (yours also has the aux board) that support LED's when wired into the feature lights. I put the Allek in my Xenon without the Aux board and had the flicker issue. I'm not an expert but I assume with LED's you'd need to replace both and wire into the feature lights. If you replace all the LED's with 47's and the problem is gone, that's the issue.

#13 4 years ago

These old Ballys were never designed with LED lighting in mind and there are some inherent problems with it.

Replacing the lamp driver board as tomdrum mentioned with modern lamp driver boards is one solution, other solutions are:

Using Siegecrafts LED anti-flicker adapters:
http://www.siegecraft.us/presta/index.php?id_product=44&controller=product

Soldering a 470 ohm resistor across each of those lamp sockets at the problematic locations.

Just revert to using incandescent lamps at those problematic lamp locations.

#14 4 years ago

If it's just those sockets I'd do the individual resistors and save some money

#15 4 years ago

I've looked at those but they haven't been available for awhile. I'd give that a try myself when available again.

#16 4 years ago

Thanks everyone. Maybe I'll contact Weebly and get their thoughts. I don't mind buying new boards if that actually solves the problem. Still, any ideas on why it is only affecting this one ring? It just seems somewhat weird to me that that one set of lights is affected while all others seem to work.

#17 4 years ago
Quoted from Nokoro:

Still, any ideas on why it is only affecting this one ring? It just seems somewhat weird to me that that one set of lights is affected while all others seem to work.

Did you replace all the suspect LED's and the problem is gone? 1st step. Quench is an expert unlike me.

#18 4 years ago
Quoted from tomdrum:

Did you replace all the suspect LED's and the problem is gone? 1st step. Quench is an expert unlike me.

I didn’t. It seemed like a pain, and I didn’t think it was necessary given that when I replaced one, it fixed that light but not the others. Is it necessary?

#19 4 years ago

I should also say I don’t really want to revert to incandescent just at those locations. It is far less bright, and the contrast is noticeable. I think that might bother me more than the flashing.

#20 4 years ago
Quoted from Nokoro:

Still, any ideas on why it is only affecting this one ring?

The feature lamps on these games are pulsed (switched on and off) at a rate of about 120 times per second when they need to be illuminated. This rate is too fast for your eyes to perceive so they appear to just be on, coupled with the fact that incandescent lamps these were originally designed for have long light persistence compared to LEDs that have no persistence.

The LEDs in the mini bonus area are flickering because they're the very first lot of lamps that are "refreshed" during the lamp activation service. During this time, LEDs cannot draw enough current to keep the lamp driver board switching circuits on, resulting in those LEDs switching off too quickly.

All the solutions I mentioned above in post #13 essentially put more load on the lamp driver board switching circuits so the switching circuits are able to function as intended.

#21 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

The feature lamps on these games are pulsed (switched on and off) at a rate of about 120 times per second when they need to be illuminated. This rate is too fast for your eyes to perceive so they appear to just be on, coupled with the fact that incandescent lamps these were originally designed for have long light persistence compared to LEDs that have no persistence.
The LEDs in the mini bonus area are flickering because they're the very first lot of lamps that are "refreshed" during the lamp activation service. During this time, LEDs cannot draw enough current to keep the lamp driver board switching circuit on, resulting in those LEDs switching off too quickly.
All the solutions I mentioned above in post #13 essentially put more load on the lamp driver board switching circuits so the switching circuits are able to function as intended.

Ah. Got it. Thanks for the explanation. I’ll likely choose the option of new boards. I’ll report back on results.

Thanks everyone for chiming in. I really appreciate the help!

1 week later
#22 4 years ago

So I just replaced the old boards with the Alltek ones. The flicker is gone, which is good, but one of the lights doesn’t work either in play or in light test mode. I swapped the bulb, and it is not the bulb. Is there an easy way I can check the board to see if it is an issue with that? I suppose I can put back in the old board, but I would rather not do that again if there is an easier way to check.

#23 4 years ago

Need to know which lamp you're referring to.

#24 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Need to know which lamp you're referring to.

It is drop target A on the bottom set of four drop targets. The bottom one of those four.

#25 4 years ago

I should mention, I believe the lamp is associated with connector J1 on the main lamp board. I did try reseating the connector a few times and jiggling the wires. None of that worked.

#26 4 years ago
Quoted from Nokoro:

I should mention, I believe the lamp is associated with connector J1 on the main lamp board.

"4 Drop Target A (bottom)" lamp wire goes to J1 pin 24.

Grab a piece of jumper wire with both ends stripped and connect one end to ground somewhere in the cabinet.
Touch (i.e. ground) the other end of the wire on the lamp socket as indicated in the picture below. If the lamp doesn't light, that will tell you the problem is local to the lamp/socket.

On a real Bally lamp driver board, SCR Q1 drives that lamp. I don't know which SCR it is on the Alltek since they don't publish schematics but let's presume it's also Q1.
With your jumper wire still connected to ground somewhere, touch the other end of the wire on the metal tab part on top of Q1 on the lamp driver board. If that lamp illuminates, it tells you wiring from the lamp driver board to the lamp is good (note this doesn't test the SCR itself).
If it doesn't illuminate, there's a connection issue between the SCR and the lamp, check the connector at J1 pin 4 on the lamp driver board.

If the lamp illuminated when grounding the metal tab of the Q1 SCR in the previous test, then next need to test the SCR itself.
Disconnect your ground wire and then hold one end of the wire on the TP3 test point metal tab on the lamp driver board. Touch the other end of the wire on the lower left pin of Q1. If the lamp lights, the Q1 SCR is ok and it's the U1 controller chip on the lamp board that's suspect. If it doesn't light then suspect the Q1 SCR.

Lamp_Socket_Controlled.jpgLamp_Socket_Controlled.jpg

#27 4 years ago

Thanks for the help! I did this:

Quoted from Quench:

Grab a piece of jumper wire with both ends stripped and connect one end to ground somewhere in the cabinet.
Touch (i.e. ground) the other end of the wire on the lamp socket as indicated in the picture below. If the lamp doesn't light, that will tell you the problem is local to the lamp/socket.

and the lamp lit.

I then did this:

Quoted from Quench:

On a real Bally lamp driver board, SCR Q1 drives that lamp. I don't know which SCR it is on the Alltek since they don't publish schematics but let's presume it's also Q1.
With your jumper wire still connected to ground somewhere, touch the other end of the wire on the metal tab part on top of Q1 on the lamp driver board. If that lamp lights, it tells you wiring from the lamp driver board to the lamp is good (note this doesn't test the SCR itself).
If the lamp doesn't light, then next need to test the SCR.

and the lamp lit.

I then think I did this:

Quoted from Quench:

Disconnect your ground wire and then hold one end of the wire on the TP3 test point metal tab on the lamp driver board. Touch the other end of the wire on the lower left pin of Q1. If the lamp lights, the Q1 SCR is ok and it's the U1 controller chip on the lamp board that's suspect. If it doesn't light then suspect the Q1 SCR.

and the lamp did NOT light. NOTE: I'm not sure what the lower left pin of Q1 is. It seems there are three metal dots under Q1 labeled G, A, and C. I touched TP3 to G. I also touched TP3 to the little leg on the bottom left of Q1. The lamp did not light. Am I doing that part right, and if so, what does it mean? Thanks again.

#28 4 years ago
Quoted from Nokoro:

and the lamp did NOT light. NOTE: I'm not sure what the lower left pin of Q1 is. It seems there are three metal dots under Q1 labeled G, A, and C. I touched TP3 to G. I also touched TP3 to the little leg on the bottom left of Q1. The lamp did not light. Am I doing that part right, and if so, what does it mean? Thanks again.

The lower left pin of Q1 marked "G" is the SCRs "Gate" pin. Actually the leg comes directly out of the black plastic package. The dots you see let you solder in standard SCRs that are not the surface mount type.

The purpose of test point TP3 is to allow you to manually activate the SCRs to test if they are working. If you connect TP3 to the Gate leg of any SCR, the respective lamp that SCR controls should illuminate.
For example if you connect TP3 to the Gate leg of Q2, the right side lower target lamp should illuminate.
Connecting TP3 to the Gate of Q3 should illuminate the "Shoot Again" lamp behind the backglass.
Test these two SCRs (Q2 and Q3) with TP3 to see if the respective lamps illuminate so you get familiar with the process.

If hooking up TP3 to the Gate of Q1 does not illuminate the lamp, but hooking up ground to the upper metal tab of Q1 does illuminate the lamp, it says Q1 is suspect faulty.

#29 4 years ago

Yep, TP3 works with those other Gate pins but does not work with the one on Q1. I'll contact Marco and ask them to send me a new board. Thanks again for the help! Everyday, I learn a little bit more.

1 week later
#30 4 years ago

Ok, got my new board from Alltek and all seems well so far. Thanks again everyone!

One final question for my own education. I now understand how SCRs work and what role they play. Why are some bigger than others? I read somewhere that the bigger ones control multiple lights whereas the smaller ones control single lights, but not many lights in Flash Gordon operate together. Is it just a generic board that can fit all different games and Flash Gordon just uses the larger ones to control individual lights because they are available?

#31 4 years ago
Quoted from Nokoro:

Why are some bigger than others? I read somewhere that the bigger ones control multiple lights whereas the smaller ones control single lights,

Essentially the larger SCRs can handle more current so gave Bally the option to handle multiple lamps if needed. The smaller SCRs only drive one lamp. Yes the lamp driver boards are generic so while your game doesn't have many multiple lamp scenarios, other games may, so in your game most of the larger SCRs are just driving single lamps.

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