(Topic ID: 54015)

Fixing the “extra ball after game over” in a Gottlieb single player EM

By DirtFlipper

10 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 17 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Topic is favorited by 37 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    View topic image gallery

    DogboneBracket.png
    #1 10 years ago

    [Warning – long post ahead]

    (I wrote this up a couple years ago, which is why it reads like an active project, but it's not.)
    -----------------------------

    This seems to be a common problem on Gottlieb EMs, and low and behold, I ran into one myself. I was able to correct it, so thought I’d pass along what I found, in case it helps someone else. (Plus I can find this again later after I forget what I did a long time from now…)

    The Symptom:
    You play a game and are on ball 5. The ball drains, but kicks out again to the shooter, yet the game is over. The Game Over light is on and the playfield is dead. You shoot the ball to let it drain back to the outhole, and wonder why is it kicking out the extra ball? The game plays fine otherwise, stepping through each ball in sequence.

    What’s going on here?
    So the ball kick out is fairly straightforward: the ball return coil fires when a switch is closed on the ball return relay (usually the O coil) and score motor switch is closed (the score motor runs; this was switch 4C on the schematic I was using). OK, so since the ball is kicking out, those two switches must be closing. Since it does that for the first five balls in the actual game, it must not be problem. Something else must distinguish when to kick out/not kick out a ball, and in particular, to NOT kick it out after the last ball.

    Since the ball return relay (O) is in the path, and is a relay that is activated with conditional logic, maybe there’s something more to it that.

    Looking at the logic for the (O) relay, there’s the ball return switch that needs to be closed. That makes sense, since that’s the leaf switch for the ball in the outhole. In line with that are a few score motor switches (three on the schematic I was using), then way off to the right side of the schematic there’s a normally closed switch called the 6th Pos. “Ball Count” Unit. This is the top switch in the switch stack on the ball count stepper unit. It is normally closed, until the ball count stepper steps to the “6th position”, which is the “Game Over” position. What this means is that when the ball count stepper finally reaches the 6th position, this switch opens, and the (O) relay can no longer activate. If the (O) relay can no longer activate, then neither can the ball return coil (which in turn means the ball won’t kick out again).

    Well, that’s interesting, but if the ball is still kicking out after the game is over, that means this switch must still be closed, allowing the (O) relay to activate, etc. Gotta dig deeper.

    So, the goal would be to make sure the (O) relay does not activate after the last ball drains (ball 5 for a 5-ball game). And it looks like the intended way to ensure that it doesn’t is for the 6th position ball count unit switch to become open. So then what causes that switch to open? Well, getting the ball count unit to step to the 6th position (which is the “game over” position).

    Looking again at the schematic, the Add “Ball Count” Unit coil is the one responsible for stepping the ball count unit forward. It has two separate paths that activate it: one is common (shared) with the path that activates the (O) relay, except that instead of the ball return (outhole) switch, the “trough switch” instead completes the circuit to activate it. This is the switch on the underside of the playfield that lies in the path from the outhole to the shooter; the ball rolls over it after being kicked out of the outhole before depositing in front of the plunger.

    The Distinguishing Clue:
    To really see what’s happening in this case, you can prop up the playfield (first remove the pinball!), and start a game. Everything will reset up until kicking out the (non-existent) ball. If you then manually trigger the outhole switch (I like to use a wooden pencil for this – no metal!), the ball return kickout will trigger. But – notice that the ball count number will not be at 1 yet (on the backglass). Then manually trigger the trough switch (simulating the ball rolling over it). Triggering the trough switch will activate the ball count unit, and the ball count will now be at 1 on the backglass. You can now run through all five balls manually, by just triggering the trough switch – that’s the switch that is causing the ball count unit to step forward.

    But see what happens after ball 5 now. Simulate ball 5 draining by triggering the outhole switch again. The ball return kicks out another ball! But note – Game Over is not yet lit. Now trigger the trough switch again. Bam! Game over. Playfield dead. This is the problem behavior. However, note that the ball didn’t really kick out AFTER the game was over; kicking out the sixth ball is actually what caused (triggered) the game over. So why didn’t the game end on ball 5?

    The Cure:
    Since we know that the (O) relay needs to not activate in order to not kick out the extra ball, and we know that the (O) relay won’t activate if the 6th position ball count switch is open, we need to find what else will advance the ball count unit that is NOT the trough switch. We know the trough switch path is working (because balls keep kicking out), so there must be a path to advance the ball count unit without kicking a ball out – and there is.

    The other path that advances the ball count unit is the one that checks if the “last” ball has been played, and which is based on the ball count unit itself. There are five things in this path, and if one of them is not behaving, then an extra ball will kick out instead, triggering the trough switch again, and thus finally ending the game (but with a dead ball in the shooter lane).

    The five items are:
    - the zero position “ball count” unit switch
    - The 3-ball/5-ball adjustment switch
    - The ball count stepper unit positions 3 and 5 (position 4 is lumped with 3)
    - Score motor switch 1A
    - Switch on relay (O)

    In my case, I tried both the 3-ball and 5-ball setting, with the same result, which told me the problem was with one of the items common to either ball count setting. I cleaned the zero position switch in the ball count unit (which closes after the ball count unit steps to ball 1), score motor switch 1A, and the switches on the (O) switch stack (did them all since I was there). I also cleaned the rivets on the ball count unit, and the spring switches. One additional thing I did was to slightly realign the wiper disc on the ball count unit to make sure the spring switches “rode” on a less worn spot of the rivets when it stopped (I did this by ensuring it stopped slightly earlier than it had been, which got it more on high spots).

    I suspect it was the zero position switch that was the actual root cause in this case, but I can’t be sure, since I cleaned/adjusted more than one thing at the same time. But, the game now ends correctly, with no extra ball kicked out.

    So there you have it. Maybe this will help sort out this issue on another game sometime.

    #2 10 years ago

    Thank you for posting this. I am looking it over now.

    -Dan

    #3 10 years ago
    Quoted from DirtFlipper:

    This seems to be a common problem on Gottlieb EMs,

    My brothers Capt. card had that same issue ,after cleaning the ball count unit it went away.
    There is one thing i did like about it kicking out though even if its not correct ,was that when you lifted the playfield up (Warning not in full service position!) you did not have to touch/remove the ball ,as long as you slowly lift the playfield the ball would roll/stay in the upper arch. <someone may not like doing it that way but I felt comfortable doing it.

    Hey DirtFlipper, Nice explanation on that, my fingers would have fallen off after that amount of typing.

    #4 10 years ago

    I experienced this same thing on my C37. Solution was different though. I do believe the problem was a timing problem between specific switch closures. My solution was different though. Check the end of this topic to see what I found.

    http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/c-37-ball-count-is-weird-and-top-hole-scores-too-much

    #5 10 years ago
    Quoted from Pafasa:

    I experienced this same thing on my C37. Solution was different though. I do believe the problem was a timing problem between specific switch closures. My solution was different though. Check the end of this topic to see what I found.
    http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/c-37-ball-count-is-weird-and-top-hole-scores-too-much

    Yes, there can be other causes as well. Another one I hit was due to switch tabs touching together inside the score motor wire harness (but it was also feeding an extra ball too early as part of game start, as well as one after the game).

    It's useful to know whether a game "develops" an issue (i.e., has been working correctly and then exhibits a quirk) versus "it's always been this way" (i.e., at least relative to when you're working on it). The former can be narrowed down more quickly (I think), since there at least was a good baseline, so something likely fell out of adjustment, whereas the latter opens up to lots of possibilities (modifications, incorrect reassembly, hacks, etc.).

    As it turns out, on a Gottlieb, only the dogbone in the score motor switch position 2 is in the 'L' position; all the others are 'S'. Just happens to be a handy thing to know/spot check when going through a game (and when disassembling/reassembling a score motor). And awesomeness when you catch one in the wrong spot!.

    #6 10 years ago

    My Jacks Open will intermittently throw out an extra ball at game over, but only about 25% of the time. I figured it was a misalignment issue in the ball count and slop in the bearings and mechanism were allowing the circuit to sometime be open and sometimes closed causing the extra ball at game over.

    JO is my only EM pin and it does not really bother me, but I will take a look at things after reading your write-up. EM's are not something I fully understand the functionality of and have gotten by on just cleaning contacts when things go wrong and that has been all I needed. Looking forward to better understanding mine.

    #7 10 years ago
    Quoted from mg81:

    My Jacks Open will intermittently throw out an extra ball at game over, but only about 25% of the time. I figured it was a misalignment issue in the ball count and slop in the bearings and mechanism were allowing the circuit to sometime be open and sometimes closed causing the extra ball at game over.
    JO is my only EM pin and it does not really bother me, but I will take a look at things after reading your write-up. EM's are not something I fully understand the functionality of and have gotten by on just cleaning contacts when things go wrong and that has been all I needed. Looking forward to better understanding mine.

    This sounds more like what I was experiencing. The intermittent "6th" ball and i bet a ball count not advancing sometimes too. Thanks to dirt flipper for posting such a thorough guide. I pretty much went through everything he posted in my search for the problem with mine. In my case, the problem was with the "switch dog" position on a score motor switch. But going through all the switches and steppers and relays involved helped me get a much better understanding of the workings of my game.

    Check the position of the "switch dog" first. It only takes a few seconds to verify. Then follow what dirt flipper has posted. Somewhere on this path is the solution to your issue.

    #8 10 years ago

    Okay check this first...Make sure the arm is lined up perfectly center with all the divots

    Divot one = Ball one
    Divot two = Ball two etc...
    Divot six = Game Over

    There were three screws on my ball count unit that attach the backlite with the "arm" I unscrewed two of the three screw lined up the arm and tightened the screws back on. It was that SIMPLE for. I spent 3 hours cursing and wanting to throw shit at the back glass out of frustration for something that was as simple as a few screws.

    #9 10 years ago

    Yea, that's why EMs can be maddening at times. When you know it's gotta be one switch that's out of adjustment, or a simple alignment problem in your case. On the other hand, sometimes, finding the problem when the light bulb suddenly goes on, can be very rewarding!

    1 year later
    #10 9 years ago
    Quoted from DirtFlipper:

    Yes, there can be other causes as well. Another one I hit was due to switch tabs touching together inside the score motor wire harness (but it was also feeding an extra ball too early as part of game start, as well as one after the game).
    It's useful to know whether a game "develops" an issue (i.e., has been working correctly and then exhibits a quirk) versus "it's always been this way" (i.e., at least relative to when you're working on it). The former can be narrowed down more quickly (I think), since there at least was a good baseline, so something likely fell out of adjustment, whereas the latter opens up to lots of possibilities (modifications, incorrect reassembly, hacks, etc.).
    As it turns out, on a Gottlieb, only the dogbone in the score motor switch position 2 is in the 'L' position; all the others are 'S'. Just happens to be a handy thing to know/spot check when going through a game (and when disassembling/reassembling a score motor). And awesomeness when you catch one in the wrong spot!.

    DF would you clarify what is 'the dogbone' pls-thks.

    #11 9 years ago

    The lifter arm that sits inside the dogbone bracket, which looks like this:

    Dogbone bracketDogbone bracket

    The dogbone (lifter part) fits into the S or L slot, and is usually black. The dogbone bracket is usually silver.

    I've no idea why they're called that, but that's the name used in the Gottlieb parts catalog.

    #12 9 years ago

    Thks DF. I notice on my El Dorado schematic that the positioning of the lifter is not shown as either S or L for the B or D levels. I was trying to verify this during recent A relay issues. Is there a reason for the non reference pls?

    #13 9 years ago
    Quoted from wayner:

    Thks DF. I notice on my El Dorado schematic that the positioning of the lifter is not shown as either S or L for the B or D levels. I was trying to verify this during recent A relay issues. Is there a reason for the non reference pls?

    The dogbone brackets are only used on A or C levels (the dogbones ride on the upper and lower cam edges); the B and D levels are for the posts that stick up from the cams. So there's no reference because there are none used there.

    #14 9 years ago

    'Doggone' thks DF

    9 years later
    #15 3 months ago

    Well, the last comment in this thread was 9 years ago but I tell you what, I'm very grateful it exists.
    Abra Ca Dabra is my first EM and its games end with a dead ball in the shooter lane every time.
    DirtFlipper, you're inactive now but what a great post. I followed it and learned a lot in the process.
    But it turns out Rat_Tomago had the solution that worked for me.
    Such a simple thing, loosen 3 screws on the ball count unit, very slight adjustment, retighten the screws.
    Seriously? Lol.
    Problem solved, so quickly and easily, after so much hair-pulling.
    Thank you so much.

    #16 3 months ago

    Thanks for this DirtFlipper - I'm refurbishing an El Dorado and have this exact problem! Thanks for the clear explanation!

    #17 3 months ago

    My Top Card has had this problem ever since I got it. I’ll try it and see if it works.

    Reply

    Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

    Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

    Donate to Pinside

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


    This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fixing-the-%E2%80%9Cextra-ball-after-game-over%E2%80%9D-in-a-gottlieb-single-player-em and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

    Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.