(Topic ID: 268455)

Fish Tales Switch Matrix Issues


By vasevida

59 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 29 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 12 days ago by vasevida
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    13699A65-6E90-4ACC-9C56-C0429CDE8464 (resized).jpeg
    Switch 24 closed (resized).png

    #1 59 days ago

    My fish tales went nuts, first the trough switches failed and within two or three startups an entire column of the switch matirx ceased to work, I will go through the switches one by one and check wiring. This includes the slingshots. Other than that I am a little lost at where to start? Maybe the connector to the board?
    I got some excellent help on here for my EM last month, so I thought I’d try again...

    #2 59 days ago

    I'd check the diodes on each switch in line with the trough switches. All connected? All working right? Diode problems can cause what you describe.

    Other than that, chip probably failed. You can isolate whether it's on the board (likely the chip) or the wiring by removing the switch matrix connectors and seeing if manually triggering pins on the board connector triggers the switch in switch test mode. If that WORKS, it's the wiring, likely. If that does NOT work (screwy results) it's likely the chip on the board.

    Give this a read...
    http://homepinballrepair.com/index.php/pinball-switch-lamp-matrix-troubleshooting/

    #3 58 days ago

    Thanks, will give it a read. When you say “chip failed” do you mean the board the connector for the switch column goes to?

    #4 58 days ago
    Quoted from vasevida:

    Thanks, will give it a read. When you say “chip failed” do you mean the board the connector for the switch column goes to?

    He means one of the ICs on the MPU board. Prolly U20 (hopefully socketed.....early B/W games had them directly soldered to the boards)

    #5 58 days ago

    Yes, and if you have to replace it and it ISN'T socket, definitely socket it. It's not an uncommon chip to have to replace. Make it easy on yourself next time.

    #6 58 days ago

    I checked and it’s row 7 and 8 that are out, not column. All the switches in these rows say open regardless. So I need to check continuity on the row wire(s) to the row connector soldered to the circuit board? Correct?
    Can someone give me the quick and dirty on how exactly to do this? Thanks in advance, I am kind of on my own fixing these things in MT.

    #7 58 days ago
    Quoted from vasevida:

    I checked and it’s row 7 and 8 that are out, not column. All the switches in these rows say open regardless. So I need to check continuity on the row wire(s) to the row connector soldered to the circuit board? Correct?
    Can someone give me the quick and dirty on how exactly to do this? Thanks in advance, I am kind of on my own fixing these things in MT.

    The procedure is in that wiki I linked you to (using Addams, but you can adjust for Fish Tales):

    Testing Columns and Rows

    Caution

    Do not use this, or any, jumper method unless you know what you are doing. It is not uncommon for beginners to cause severe circuit board damage by shorting pins or applying high voltage to a low voltage circuit.

    [Editor’s note: This procedure cannot be used for testing the lamp matrix. It would result in a short and potentially damage the circuit.]

    For the jumper cable I recommend either a mini-grabber (also called mini-clip) or a .1″ female to female jumper. You can get the latter at most electronics stores in a variety of lengths, but 6″ works well. If you need to jumper more than one row/column at a time you will need a 1N4004 diode installed in the jumper. This is not necessary for the procedure below, but is required for more advanced testing. The end of the jumper with the banded side of the diode should be placed on the column side when testing.

    The connector and switch info are for Addams Family (use Image 1 as a reference), but you can use this procedure with any machine. Just check the manual to identify your row connector and column connector, the pins for each row and column and the switch numbers.

    Note: J206 and J207 (column drives) are electrically the same and the connector may go to either one. The same is true of the two switch row connectors, J208 and J209.

    Use the following procedure to test each column.
    1.Remove J209 (return connector) and J207 (send connector).
    2.Turn on the game and enter switch edge diagnostics.
    3.Put one end of your jumper on pin 1 of J209 (row 1).
    4.Place the other end of your jumper on pin 1 of J207 (column 1)
    5.Switch 11 (column 1, row 1) should indicate closed on the display.
    6.Move the jumper on pin 1 of J207 to pin 2 (column 2).
    7.Switch 21 (column 2, row 1) should indicate closed.
    8.Continue testing each column by moving the jumper.

    Use the following procedure to test each row.
    1.Remove J209 (return connector) and J207 (send connector).
    2.Turn on the game and enter switch edge diagnostics.
    3.Put one end of your jumper on pin 1 of J207 (column 1).
    4.Place the other end of your jumper on pin 1 of J209 (row 1)
    5.Switch 11 (column 1, row 1) should indicate closed on the display.
    6.Move the jumper on pin 1 of J209 to pin 2 (row 2).
    7.Switch 12 (column 1, row 2) should indicate closed.
    8.Continue testing each row by moving the jumper.

    #8 58 days ago

    Yep, I read all of that. I will have to look into making a female to female jumper. Can I just use a multi meter to see if it’s play field or back box first:
    “ The quickest approach is to test continuity between the column wire under the playfield (with the game off) and where the column connector is soldered to the circuit board (on the back side of the circuit board). It is important to test to the board, not just to the connector, since you could have a bad connector”

    How exactly does one do this, using a multimeter?

    Can I build a jumper wire with pins and plugs?
    I have the materials to re pin boards. I have jumper wires for working on EM machines but don’t think this is the same. Can I just use a wire with a crimp fitting on each end, like I would put into a plug for a board?
    Please excuse my ignorance, and thanks in advance. I have all of this stuff on hand, just don’t want to do damage to Fish Tales....

    #9 57 days ago

    If you go in to the menu Test->Switch Edges, and then remove all the four cables from the bottom of the CPU board, with the game on. (Otherwise you will get the error message "Check fuses F114 & 115" at start-up.) Then only switch 24 shall be closed in the switch matrix (See picture below how the matrix shall look like.), if you have one or more whole rows/colums closed it's a problem on the CPU-board. U20 (and sometimes also U14) when it's columns. U18 if it's one or more of rows 1 to 4, and U19 row 5 to 8.

    Switch 24 closed (resized).png
    #10 57 days ago
    Quoted from vasevida:

    Yep, I read all of that. I will have to look into making a female to female jumper. Can I just use a multi meter to see if it’s play field or back box first:
    “ The quickest approach is to test continuity between the column wire under the playfield (with the game off) and where the column connector is soldered to the circuit board (on the back side of the circuit board). It is important to test to the board, not just to the connector, since you could have a bad connector”
    How exactly does one do this, using a multimeter?
    Can I build a jumper wire with pins and plugs?
    I have the materials to re pin boards. I have jumper wires for working on EM machines but don’t think this is the same. Can I just use a wire with a crimp fitting on each end, like I would put into a plug for a board?
    Please excuse my ignorance, and thanks in advance. I have all of this stuff on hand, just don’t want to do damage to Fish Tales....

    Yeah a jumper would be great. Then you can test individual switches from the board.

    Did you check the diodes on the switches in that row to make sure they all are good?

    #11 56 days ago

    Okay so that jumper wire just looks like an ordinary jumper with insulated alligator clips? Is that ok to use,because I have several that I use for my EM machines.....
    I have been busy with homeschooling and have not gotten to this yet, but mostly because I thought I had to use a special jumper wire made with circuit board fittings. So I can use just a regular jumper? or just hook it to a board fitting?
    Please let me know.
    Then I will try checking all of the switch diodes with a Multimeter and then the circuit board pin test shown previously.
    Thanks everyone. I have a half dozen pins, but Fish tales is my Favorite. At least right now......

    #12 56 days ago
    Quoted from vasevida:

    Okay so that jumper wire just looks like an ordinary jumper with insulated alligator clips? Is that ok to use,because I have several that I use for my EM machines.....
    I have been busy with homeschooling and have not gotten to this yet, but mostly because I thought I had to use a special jumper wire made with circuit board fittings. So I can use just a regular jumper? or just hook it to a board fitting?
    Please let me know.
    Then I will try checking all of the switch diodes with a Multimeter and then the circuit board pin test shown previously.
    Thanks everyone. I have a half dozen pins, but Fish tales is my Favorite. At least right now......

    A homemade one with trifurcon connectors will be best because you won't have the possibility of hitting adjacent pins, but really anything that can short two pins reliably is all you need.

    #13 56 days ago

    If you touch more than one pin on the switch matrix pins of the MPU, you're NOT going to blow up anything. worst case, you give yourself a false positive (misdiagnose one problem for another) or something of the sort. You will NOT blow up your board.

    1 week later
    #14 49 days ago

    OK so I checked the diodes on the two rows that are out, and they all seem to be good. So I will fashion a jumper cable to check the board connections.

    On a diode note, I have a question, why when the multi tester is in diode check mode does it sometimes give a clear answer and sometimes not? For instance on all of the rows that are out in the matrix, it gives a reading of around 650 when black is on the banded end of the diode and red on other, and then when you reverse it, it gives a clear no connection signal. But on rollover switches and the like, where there is a plug into the switches, like trough switch 1 #16, it gives a slight reading in each direction? Like 001 or - 001, why does the multi meter read in this manner? It’s not possible that all these diodes are bad is it? Why do some give such a clear cut reading and others do not? Sorry if I am a bit off topic now, just looking for greater understanding....thanks in advance. I guess it’s possible that there are many bad diodes?

    #15 49 days ago
    Quoted from vasevida:

    OK so I checked the diodes on the two rows that are out, and they all seem to be good. So I will fashion a jumper cable to check the board connections.
    On a diode note, I have a question, why when the multi tester is in diode check mode does it sometimes give a clear answer and sometimes not? For instance on all of the rows that are out in the matrix, it gives a reading of around 650 when black is on the banded end of the diode and red on other, and then when you reverse it, it gives a clear no connection signal. But on rollover switches and the like, where there is a plug into the switches, like trough switch 1 #16, it gives a slight reading in each direction? Like 001 or - 001, why does the multi meter read in this manner? It’s not possible that all these diodes are bad is it? Why do some give such a clear cut reading and others do not? Sorry if I am a bit off topic now, just looking for greater understanding....thanks in advance. I guess it’s possible that there are many bad diodes?

    The way you described it first is how it should be. Good one way but not the other. If you get readings both ways with the leads = bad diode.

    Best way to test without being mislead, disconnect one of the legs of the diode from the switch and test it. Then you'll know 99.9% the outcome.

    #16 48 days ago

    You can test the diode on a micro switch, if you disconnect the ground cable and activate the switch while you're testning.

    #17 47 days ago

    Ok so I got to doing the test tonight and when I went to start, I got the check fuses message. With all of the plugs still in and the fuses are good. I did notice there was some corrosion, I thought I had cleaned it all up years ago when I bought it and put in the battery package shown. So I spent my time tonight double checking the diodes and cleaning up the corrosion,
    I am getting a much better understanding of things now. I have a couple questions.
    1. Is there a way to read the wire colors from the schematic or the owners manual, that is which plugs are supposed to have which color wires? I know on my EM this is shown, but I did not see it on the CPU board schematic.
    2. Is there a way to see which plugs are used and which are not? I had the GI fixed on this machine shortly before the troubles started and I am wondering if I have a plug in the wrong place.

    13699A65-6E90-4ACC-9C56-C0429CDE8464 (resized).jpeg
    #18 47 days ago
    Quoted from vasevida:

    Ok so I got to doing the test tonight and when I went to start, I got the check fuses message. With all of the plugs still in and the fuses are good. I did notice there was some corrosion, I thought I had cleaned it all up years ago when I bought it and put in the battery package shown. So I spent my time tonight double checking the diodes and cleaning up the corrosion,
    I am getting a much better understanding of things now. I have a couple questions.
    1. Is there a way to read the wire colors from the schematic or the owners manual, that is which plugs are supposed to have which color wires? I know on my EM this is shown, but I did not see it on the CPU board schematic.
    2. Is there a way to see which plugs are used and which are not? I had the GI fixed on this machine shortly before the troubles started and I am wondering if I have a plug in the wrong place.
    [quoted image]

    Wow. See all that green stuff all over the pins below where the battery pack was? Your CPU board has massive battery damage. At least 13 resistors, 2 capacitors and 4 chips are toast based on first look. Send it out to get fixed up. Problem solved.

    #19 47 days ago
    Quoted from vireland:

    Wow. See all that green stuff all over the pins below where the battery pack was? Your CPU board has massive battery damage. At least 13 resistors, 2 capacitors and 4 chips are toast based on first look. Send it out to get fixed up. Problem solved.

    Dead on. Wow. That's pretty vicious damage there.

    OP, respectfully, don't try to fix this. Let someone like Rob Anthony or Chris Hibler knock this out. This is a job that needs their expertise.

    #20 46 days ago

    There you have the problem. I would have bought a new board when it looks like that.

    You can see wire colors and were the connectors shall be connected in section 3 in the manual. Eg. see page 3-29 for the CPU board in the Fish Tales manual.

    #21 43 days ago

    Yeah I was surprised that I had missed that damage years before. It cleaned up well though and seemed pretty superficial.
    But I got the machine for 400 bucks and it’s in great shape otherwise (playfield, cabinet etc) I did clean up the battery damage when I bought it but must have missed this. Normally I would agree with you, but.....this machine has worked fine for over five years since then. That all being said, I love this machine and and do ok, so I can spare the cash to fix the board. Might even throw a color DMD in there as well....

    Can you fine folks tell me where I could buy a new CPU board of how to arrange having Rob Anthony or Chris Hibler fix it?
    Thanks in advance. This is the last thing I need to fix in my collection.

    #22 43 days ago
    Quoted from vasevida:

    Yeah I was surprised that I had missed that damage years before. It cleaned up well though and seemed pretty superficial.
    But I got the machine for 400 bucks and it’s in great shape otherwise (playfield, cabinet etc) I did clean up the battery damage when I bought it but must have missed this. Normally I would agree with you, but.....this machine has worked fine for over five years since then. That all being said, I love this machine and and do ok, so I can spare the cash to fix the board. Might even throw a color DMD in there as well....
    Can you fine folks tell me where I could buy a new CPU board of how to arrange having Rob Anthony or Chris Hibler fix it?
    Thanks in advance. This is the last thing I need to fix in my collection.

    New board:

    https://ksarcade.net/rottendog-mpu089-wpc-89-a-12742.html

    Repair specialists:

    https://pinside.com/pinball/community/pinsiders/chrishibler

    https://pinside.com/pinball/community/pinsiders/borygard

    There you go!

    #23 43 days ago
    Quoted from vasevida:

    Yeah I was surprised that I had missed that damage years before. It cleaned up well though and seemed pretty superficial.
    But I got the machine for 400 bucks and it’s in great shape otherwise (playfield, cabinet etc) I did clean up the battery damage when I bought it but must have missed this. Normally I would agree with you, but.....this machine has worked fine for over five years since then. That all being said, I love this machine and and do ok, so I can spare the cash to fix the board. Might even throw a color DMD in there as well....
    Can you fine folks tell me where I could buy a new CPU board of how to arrange having Rob Anthony or Chris Hibler fix it?
    Thanks in advance. This is the last thing I need to fix in my collection.

    Get it fixed if you can. Stay away from the rottendog boards. Just introduces another layer of potential issues.

    1 week later
    #24 36 days ago

    Sent the board to Rob Anthony, more later when it gets installed....was thinking about putting a new color dmd in there too. Thanks Everyone.

    #25 35 days ago
    Quoted from vasevida:

    Sent the board to Rob Anthony, more later when it gets installed....was thinking about putting a new color dmd in there too. Thanks Everyone.

    Good to hear. Rob does great work and will get you all sorted out.

    #26 35 days ago
    Quoted from vasevida:

    Sent the board to Rob Anthony, more later when it gets installed....was thinking about putting a new color dmd in there too. Thanks Everyone.

    Nice. I would get the entire board set done. For the price, you can't relly beat knowing it has all been re-worked and tested. Sure, the wait can suck...but you will save a ton of headaches later on if you do them all at the same time.

    I'm down in the Bitterroot, btw. Good to see another FT semi-local!

    2 weeks later
    #27 21 days ago

    Ok so I got the new CPU board installed and got it all fired up and am now getting “check fuses f114 and f115” message.
    Where do I go next? Thanks in advance. JC

    #28 21 days ago
    Quoted from vasevida:

    Ok so I got the new CPU board installed and got it all fired up and am now getting “check fuses f114 and f115” message.
    Where do I go next? Thanks in advance. JC

    Check the Cap at C2 for leakage and the bridge rectifier BR2 on the power driver board.

    Pinwiki has a section on this error:
    https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Check_fuses_F114_and_F115_message

    1 week later
    #29 12 days ago

    Update...It was in fact fuse 115, the bad CPU board had blown it. Put a new one in and I am back in business. Machine is working perfectly. Thanks everyone for your help and input, and Thanks Rob Anthony/Pinball Classics. I will session this thing tonight.

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