(Topic ID: 159940)

Fish tales powering up issues


By shlockdoc

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 38 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by PinballManiac40
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#1 3 years ago

I have a strange power up issue I can use some advice for. When I turn on the game it might take 2 or 3 times powering it on/off to get it to boot correctly. Sometimes a single try. Once powered up plays great no issues. On the failed attempts I either get a bong noise and nothing or a slight buzz. Once it gets it right I get a slight tick, tick, tick, tick then good to go. Any advice if this is a switch issue or a capacitor issue?

#2 3 years ago

Could be capacitor related, you can check this by putting your meter on AC volts and then measuring your DC voltages to determine how much ripple is riding on the DC voltage.

#3 3 years ago

Do you do this at a test point? Set meter to ac but measure dc just to confirm? Thanks

#4 3 years ago

Measure the 5 volts on the CPU, J210 pin 5. While you are there measure it with the meter on both AC and DC.

4 weeks later
#5 3 years ago

I have 5v dc and 10.5 ac on pin 5 is that correct? I don't get any error LEDs on the cpu.

D19 d20 and d21 all stay lite when it does not boot correctly.

#6 3 years ago

How's the cpu board below the battery pack...any sign of leak or corrosion? reset connectors and ribbon cables...also make sure the roms are seated tight.

#7 3 years ago

Maybe check or replace the thermistor in the power switch box.

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from shlockdoc:

I have 5v dc and 10.5 ac on pin 5 is that correct? I don't get any error LEDs on the cpu.

The 10.5 AC is not a valid reading. For this technique to work you need a decent meter and set it on the lowest AC range. Although your problem really doesn't sound like a ripple issue to me.

Quoted from kvan99:

How's the cpu board below the battery pack...any sign of leak or corrosion? reset connectors and ribbon cables...also make sure the roms are seated tight.

I would try kvan's advice first.

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from pincredible:

Maybe check or replace the thermistor in the power switch box.

How do you check that?

Quoted from terryb:

The 10.5 AC is not a valid reading. For this technique to work you need a decent meter and set it on the lowest AC range. Although your problem really doesn't sound like a ripple issue to me.

I would try kvan's advice first.

I tried kvan's advice no luck

My meter is decent - I was grounding to the braid.

#10 3 years ago

Monitor the 5 volts while you turn the game on and see if there's a difference between when the game boots up and when it doesn't. Do the same with the blanking circuit.

I would also do a thorough visual inspection of the board (or post photos here). Look for cold solder joints, damaged packages on components, previous work to board, alkaline damage, etc.

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from shlockdoc:

How do you check that?

Swap power supply box with another known working machine.
Or just buy a new thermistor.

#12 3 years ago

I am trying to help Shlockdoc with his FT, How would we test the blanking circuit? I'm thinking that is the issue since D19 never turns off when the game doesn't boot. It's that or its a capacitor in the power supply that is failing. If you power on and doesn't boot, you can flip it off and immediately back on and it will boot. If you wait a minute it will almost always not boot after sitting off for a minute. I did have one time where it had been off and powered it on and it booted first try.

No visible damage to the cpu board on the front, I have not removed it from the game yet, but very clean on the front side. I did notice that this is a re-import and the resistor bank is still configured for Europe if that has any bearing on anything other than language.

Voltages at pin 5 of J210 were the same in booted mode and non booted mode of the CPU board.

I found this article on another site. How would one go about actually performing these tests?
Blanking Problems
If D19 doesn't turn off the CPU will not boot. First check pin 3 of U21 (blanking signal from the ASIC), which should be high. If it is high and D19 doesn't turn off then there is likely a problem with the amplifier chips, either U21 or U5. If it is low then the signal from the ASIC chip is bad indicating a problem with the ASIC, the 6809 processor or one of the clock circuits.
You can test the 8MHz and 32Khz clock signals (see Imageat pins 34 and 35 on the CPU. These signals come from pins 81 and 82 on the ASIC. If one or the other is missing check the clock inputs to the ASIC at pins 55 and 70. If either input is missing check crystal X1 (32Khz) or crystal X2 (8Mhz), as appropriate, and their associated circuitry.

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from Denethor:

If D19 doesn't turn off the CPU will not boot. First check pin 3 of U21 (blanking signal from the ASIC), which should be high. If it is high and D19 doesn't turn off then there is likely a problem with the amplifier chips, either U21 or U5. If it is low then the signal from the ASIC chip is bad indicating a problem with the ASIC, the 6809 processor or one of the clock circuits.

Start with this test. Just test the same way as you did with pin 5 on J210 except check pin 3 of U21. Check it when it boots properly and when it does not boot properly.

#14 3 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

Start with this test. Just test the same way as you did with pin 5 on J210 except check pin 3 of U21. Check it when it boots properly and when it does not boot properly.

What "should" it be?
Set the voltmeter to DC, ground to braid, red to Pin 5?

Thank you

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from shlockdoc:

D19 d20 and d21 all stay lite when it does not boot correctly

To me, it sounds like the voltage is fine. Sounds like a corrupt data path.
Reseat all the ribbon cables at all the board connections.

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from Denethor:

What "should" it be?

It should be 5 volts. If it's zero volts there's a problem with the blanking circuit.

Black lead on ground braid, red lead on pin 3 of U21.

Repeat the test until you are measuring it during a failure.

3 weeks later
#17 3 years ago

@shlockdoc I can't PM, too many today... just looked at pics... can you call me with the number I sent you a few messages ago? Thanks!

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from shlockdoc:

I have 5v dc and 10.5 ac on pin 5 is that correct? I don't get any error LEDs on the cpu.
D19 d20 and d21 all stay lite when it does not boot correctly.

Call me

3 months later
#19 3 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

It should be 5 volts. If it's zero volts there's a problem with the blanking circuit.
Black lead on ground braid, red lead on pin 3 of U21.
Repeat the test until you are measuring it during a failure.

I finally got to test it. When it boots its 5v. When it foes not boot correctly there is 0.06 volts.

How do you fix a blanking circuit? Thanks. Sorry it took forever.

#20 3 years ago

Did you test Pin 5 on J210 when you had 0.06 volts at U21 to confirm 5 volts is coming into the CPU board.

I had a similar problem on a WCS and found it to be the ASIC chip holder causing the blanking circuit to drop out. I simply pressed on it and the machine worked fine. I had the chip holder replaced in the end for a permanent fix.

#21 3 years ago

I will test that tonight.

#22 3 years ago

I agree on the ASIC suggestion. You may have to pop it and reseat it if pressing down doesn't do any good. Also make sure any other chips in sockets are properly seated.

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from DSBDBB:

Did you test Pin 5 on J210 when you had 0.06 volts at U21 to confirm 5 volts is coming into the CPU board.
I had a similar problem on a WCS and found it to be the ASIC chip holder causing the blanking circuit to drop out. I simply pressed on it and the machine worked fine. I had the chip holder replaced in the end for a permanent fix.

ASIC chip is seated nice. I got 12v on pin 5 of j210 when u21 had the .06v. You say 5v did you mean 12v on j210?

#24 3 years ago

J210 has both 12 volts and 5 volts. Are you sure you checked the correct pins?

From top of J210 to bottom:

Pin 1 - Black - Ground
Pin 2 - Key
Pin 3 - Black - Ground
Pin 4 - Grey +5VDC
Pin 5 - Grey +5VDC
Pin 6 - Grey/green +12VDC
Pin 7 - Grey/green + 12VDC

Pins 4 and 5 are both the same +5VDC so you should be able to test either. You should test both these pins from pin 1 or 3 to confirm a good ground as well.

As previously mentioned you may need the remove and refit the ASIC chip even if it looks good.

#25 3 years ago
Quoted from DSBDBB:

J210 has both 12 volts and 5 volts. Are you sure you checked the correct pins?
From top of J210 to bottom:
Pin 1 - Black - Ground
Pin 2 - Key
Pin 3 - Black - Ground
Pin 4 - Grey +5VDC
Pin 5 - Grey +5VDC
Pin 6 - Grey/green +12VDC
Pin 7 - Grey/green + 12VDC
Pins 4 and 5 are both the same +5VDC so you should be able to test either. You should test both these pins from pin 1 or 3 to confirm a good ground as well.
As previously mentioned you may need the remove and refit the ASIC chip even if it looks good.

I thought I checked the correct one - this is very helpful. Thank you. I will check again - i need to get a tool for asic chip

#26 3 years ago

Yes, unfortunately a tool for the ASIC chip is recommended but there is maybe some more tests you can do before you remove it.

When your testing the 5 volts is it a solid 5 volts or is it 4 point something? This is important as the circuitry is sensitive to this.

#27 3 years ago

I get 5.06 on pins 4 & 5 and 11.97 on pins 6&7. I used pin one as the ground. When it fails to boot.

When it boots properly it is the same as above. Pin 6 varies a bit in attract mode.

Can't find my asic tool. Just ordered one from amazon.

#28 3 years ago

Defiantly a problem on the CPU board with 5.06 volts on that plug. I'd be checking for a bad connection somewhere. While you wait for your chip remover, you can check you have 5 volts at the lower side of D1 which is just above the driver board ribbon cable. From there the board track goes to ASIC pins 1, 22, 43 and 64. Those pins are the center pins of each side. Here is a diagram of the ASIC

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/images/2/2e/WPCASICPinOutRevisionA.pdf

You may need to wrap a thin strand of wire around you meter probe if it won't fit in.

I would also now pull out the board and remove and refit U4 and U6 and look for any cold solder joints on the bottom side of the board

#29 3 years ago

Thanks. Will do and I'll report back

#30 3 years ago

I get 4.82 on d1 lower side when failed. Also 4.82 when boots correctly.

64 got 5.04 the other three legs got 4.82.

U4 and u6 reseated - no change.

#31 3 years ago
Quoted from shlockdoc:

I get 4.82 on d1 lower side when failed.

That's low, and it's not abnormal for a marginal 5 volts to sometimes work and sometimes not. Have a look at the connector and see if it is oxidized. Clean it with DeOXIT or a good quality contact cleaner and then install/remove the connector a couple of times. If that's good then look at C31-33 and L1.

#32 3 years ago

That voltage on the ASIC seems reasonable when you consider the forward bias volt drop of D1 (0.7 volts) and is comparable to my machines. I imagine the top side of D1 is over 5 volts.

While these are good voltages it still doesn't mean the socket is connecting correctly to the ASIC pins so removing it and refitting is still a good idea at least to clear it.

But if you want to keep testing while you wait for the pulling tool you can check the ground pins 2, 23,44 and 65 to a +5VDC say on J210 pin 4.

You can also check you are getting +5VDC on pin 32 of U6(game ROM)

Failing Chip?? I think usually a chip would work or fail rather than sometimes work and sometimes fail.

After that unless others have a suggestion I think you would need to start probing the CPU which is a another level.

#33 3 years ago

It seems to me there is far too much "overthinking" of what is likely a very simple problem here.

Measure voltages, reseat chips and check connectors. It is likely to be one or a combination of those things rather than some obscure failing part.

#34 3 years ago

i reseated the chip and still no good. i guess its off to a clives or someone to test it. I was hoping to be able to tech it myself. The board is still jumpered for euro 240v and someone mentioned having to cut out them out.

My guess is it is a capacitor issue on the board and that when it sits, it drains down, the quick on/off/on doesn’t allow it to dip below the required voltage. Is there a way to test the capacitors on the board?

#35 3 years ago
Quoted from shlockdoc:

The board is still jumpered for euro 240v and someone mentioned having to cut out them out.

I think there may be some confusion here on the jumpers since you are talking about your MPU. The country selection jumpers on this board are only for the default language the machine boots up in (after a reset to factory defaults) and has nothing to do with the boards voltage selection as the board only uses the +12VDC and +5VDC from the Power Driver board.

#36 3 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

I think there may be some confusion here on the jumpers since you are talking about your MPU. The country selection jumpers on this board are only for the default language the machine boots up in (after a reset to factory defaults) and has nothing to do with the boards voltage selection as the board only uses the +12VDC and +5VDC from the Power Driver board.

Thanks. Just trying to cover every possible cause.

#37 3 years ago
Quoted from shlockdoc:

i reseated the chip and still no good. i guess its off to a clives or someone to test it. I was hoping to be able to tech it myself. The board is still jumpered for euro 240v and someone mentioned having to cut out them out.
My guess is it is a capacitor issue on the board and that when it sits, it drains down, the quick on/off/on doesn’t allow it to dip below the required voltage. Is there a way to test the capacitors on the board?

Hard to test caps on the board and if you remove them they are so cheap you may as well just replace them. I only hear of people changing C31 and I'm not sure if it fails that it would cause the problem you have anyway.

I wouldn't discount a cold solder joint somewhere on the board.

Either way with all that testing you have done, it is at least a good learning experience.

#38 3 years ago

Any improvement if you reseat J101, J102, J114 on the power driver board and J210 on the MPU board?

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