Fish Tales
Williams, 1992So I got a fish tales last weekend and it's playing great with the exception that I have several inserts that seem to be ghosting with flickering lights. Specifically the left and right boat arrows and my extra ball lights is always flashing. Any idea where to start or what my problem could be?
Yep. I've had to track these issues down numerous times on various WPC games. I've had several causes:
- shorted transistor that kept the whole row (or col) on
- diode bent touching a 44 socket
- previous owner replacing a diode with a wire
- on one game, previous owner rewired a playfield sign incorrectly swapping some wires around
- improperly created mods that use lamp matrix for trigger
Always start in lamp test. Between the row test, col test, and single lamp test and your manual, you should discover a pattern.
I had a similar problem with that affected some insert lamps .Found the molex plugs to casters club lights were reversed under playfield both were the same plug configuration and that screwed up all the lights on that line ,Check the molex plugs going to boat
Quoted from Tsskinne:That is a bit above my level but I'll see if some local pinheads can help me out
Identifying the pattern isn't really that hard and learning how to use the diagnostics is a good idea if you own pinballs. Get the manual and go through the diagnostics for the lamps (as markmon described). Just write down your findings and report back here.
At that point if you want to have someone help repair the problem, go for it.
So go figure this out....fixed my drop target problem....replacing spring on the arm that drops the target. Since doing that today my lights are working fine. Any ideas why that would have resolved it?
Update...still not fixed....the problem quickly returned or I purely imagined it being fixed. Tonight finally fixed my service buttons, they hadn't been working got a new one and used my new hakko soldering iron that I got for Christmas and replaced it. Went into single lamp test mode which I hadn't been able to do before. The positive was that for every single lamp that was supposed to light it did.....the bad was that for pretty much every light there was a second light that was flickering/ghosting. The extra ball insert light was lit for several of these which explained why that insert is almost always lit while playing. I will try to take a video of this tomorrow and see if anyone can make some more sense if it. Thanks again for the help.
Quoted from Tsskinne:Update...still not fixed....the problem quickly returned or I purely imagined it being fixed. Tonight finally fixed my service buttons, they hadn't been working got a new one and used my new hakko soldering iron that I got for Christmas and replaced it. Went into single lamp test mode which I hadn't been able to do before. The positive was that for every single lamp that was supposed to light it did.....the bad was that for pretty much every light there was a second light that was flickering/ghosting. The extra ball insert light was lit for several of these which explained why that insert is almost always lit while playing. I will try to take a video of this tomorrow and see if anyone can make some more sense if it. Thanks again for the help.
Hi. A video won't help so don't bother. What you need to do is what Terry and I asked. Step through single lamp test. For each light that lights, write down that lamp number *from the lamp matrix chart* and the other lamp numbers * from the lamp matrix chart*. Videos or verbal lamp description names are completely worthless. If you want help, help yourself and gather this data.
Ok will do, I'm off to bed have wrestling practice in the morning and will get this done in the afternoon. Thanks again.
Edit: screw it girlfriend already in bed I'll go do this now.
Post edited by Tsskinne : Doing now
Lamp 11 hold bonus lit ghosting lamp 31 stringer 1 tail
Lamp 12 video mode lit ghosting lamp 32 stringer 2 tail
Lamp 13 rock boat lit ghosting lamp 33 stringer 3 tail
Lamp 14 lite xball lit ghosting lamp 34 stringer 4 tail
Lamp 15 instant multiball lit ghosting 35 right boat entry
Lamp 16 L lit ghosting 36 rt boat feeding frenzy
Lamp 17 I lit ghosting 37 left boat entry
Lamp 18 E lit nothing else ghosting
Lamp 21 stringer 1 body lit ghosting lamp 31 stringer 1 tail and 28 jackpot
Lamp 22 stringer 2 body lit ghosting 32 stringer 2 tail and 28 jackpot
Lamp 23 stringer 3 body lit ghosting 33 stringer 3 tail and 28 jackpot
Lamp 24 stringer 4 body lit ghosting 34 stringer 4 tail and 28 jackpot
Lamp 25 feeding frenzy lit ghosting 35 right boat entry
Lamp 26 monster bonus lit ghosting 36 right boat feeding frenzy
Lamp 27 fish finder lit ghosting 37 left boat entry
Lamp 28 jackpot lit nothing else ghosting
Lamp 31 stringer 1 tail lit nothing else ghosting
Lamp 32 stringer 2 tail lit nothing else ghosting
Lamp 33 stringer 3 tail lit nothing else ghosting
Lamp 34 stringer 4 tail lit nothing else ghosting
Lamp 35 right boat entry lit nothing else ghosting
Lamp 36 right boat feeding frenzy lit nothing else ghosting
Lamp 37 left boat entry lit nothing else ghosting
Lamp 38 left boat feeding frenzy bad light socket have tried multiple bulbs needs replaced
Lamp 41 tropical lit ghosting lamp 31 stringer 1 tail
Lamp 42 lamp 42 freshwater lit ghosting lamp 32 stringer 2 tail
Lamp 43 cast again lit ghosting lamp 33 stringer 3 tail
Lamp 44 deep sea lit ghosting 34 stringer 4 tail
Lamp 45 left fish head lit ghosting ghosting 35 right boat entry
Lamp 46 left fish body lit ghosting 36 rt boat feeding frenzy
Lamp 47 left fish tail lit ghosting 37 left boat entry
Lamp 48 specials lit nothing else ghosting
Lamp 51 1x lit ghosting lamp 31 stringer 1 tail
Lamp 52 2x lit ghosting lamp 32 stringer 2 tail
Lamp 53 auto cast lit ghosting lamp 33 stringer 3 tail
Lamp 54 4x lit ghosting lamp 34 stringer 4 tail
Lamp 55 right fish head lit ghosting 35 right boat entry
Lamp 56 right fish body lit ghosting 36 right boat feeding frenzy
Lamp 57 right fish tail lit ghosting 37 left boat entry
Lamp 58 lite long cast lit nothing else ghosting
Lamp 61 school fish 1 lit ghosting 31 stringer 1 tail and 68 lite fish finder
Lamp 62 school fish 2 lit ghosting 32 stringer 2 tail and 68 lite fish finder
Lamp 63 school fish 3 lit ghosting 33 stringer 3 tail and 68 lite fish finder
Lamp 64 school fish 4 lit ghosting 34 stringer 4 tail and 68 lite fish finder
Lamp 65 school fish 5 lit ghosting 35 rt boat entry and 68 lite fish finder
Lamp 66 school fish 6 lit ghosting rt boar feeding frenzy and 68 lite fish finder
Lamp 67 super jackpot lit ghosting 37 left boat entry
Lamp 68 lite fish finder lit nothing else ghosting
Lamp 71 casters club lit ghosting 78 extra ball
Lamp 72 doubles jackpot lit ghosting 78 extra ball
Lamp 73 lock 3 lit ghosting 78 extra ball
Lamp 74 lock 2 lit ghosting 78 extra ball
Lamp 75 lock 1 lit ghosting 78 extra ball
Lamp 76 rt side feeding frenzy lit ghosting 78 extra ball
Lamp 77 long cast lit ghosting 78 extra ball
Lamp 78 extra ball lit nothing else ghosting
Lamp 81 5x actual lit ghosting 31 stringer 1 tail
Lamp 82 3x actual lit ghosting 32 stringer 2 tail
Lamp 83 2x actual lit ghosting 33 stringer 3 tail
Lamp 84 actual size ghosting 34 stringer tail
Lamp 85 total lie lit ghosting 35 right boat entry
Lamp 86 video mode backboard lit ghosting 36 rt bot feeding frenzy
Lamp 87 unused ghosting 37 left boat entry
Lamp 88 credit button lit nothing else ghosting
Ok. Based off what you are listing above, that's not the standard diode based problem. But a very nice pattern emerged. The entire column 3 seems shorted. I would test q96 on the power driver board with a meter for a short. Good chance it's shorted and changing it will solve this.
Markmon thank you very much for the help. Really going to bed now and will dive into this tomorrow after practice and update.
The lamp matrix is telling me your problem is most likely with the left boat feeding frenzy (38). Often the problem is at the intersection of the column and row of non-ghosting lamps. In your case column 3 and row 8.
Turn the lamp test to that light and make sure that's the light you are thinking it is. If the left boat feeding frenzy is active then you have the right one. Check it real close including the diode, look for breaks. If it's a different light active then someone moved some things around. The one blinking IS the left boat entry but it's been accidentally moved to a different spot during a previous repair job. Check it closely and AFTER you resolve your problem move it back to the right spot. That way you don't complicate things by inadvertently creating a new problem while moving it. Solve your initial problem first.
I learned all about this while troubleshooting a similar problem on mine. The guys here (terryb and viperrwk) helped me figure it out and learn all about the matrix. In my case I had installed a lighted launch button mod and not used diodes.
Edit: Corrected an error and added more details.
Markmon, I took it down to the local pincade we have in town where the guy has 30 years of experience and had him test it for me, it tested ok. He then put a new one on just to be safe since it was a cheap and quick thing to do and the problem persisted.
ddebuss, thanks for the advice. I will give that a shot at some point over this weekend when I hopefully have some free time.
I appreciate all of the help guys.
Ok will also give that a shot, It plays fine just kind of annoyed by the light errors, and about to loan it for a month to local pincade and would like it to be working 100% for paying customers.
Forget my previous suggestion, I flipped out for a minute (I was thinking row rather than column). Check all of the diodes in column 3 for one reversed or shorted. More likely reversed than shorted based on the symptoms.
I have to agree with markmon though this really does not sound like the typical diode problem. Check the voltages at the board connector for all of the column drivers. They should all read the same voltage, if there's a board problem column 3 will read higher.
Ok so here is what I am finding. Diode for light 38 is testing ok with no bulb, but when I put a bulb in the socket I am getting a reading on the side I shouldn't, very low reading, and then on the side where my reading was fine before I put the bulb in drops very low....any help?
Quoted from Tsskinne:Ok so here is what I am finding. Diode for light 38 is testing ok with no bulb, but when I put a bulb in the socket I am getting a reading on the side I shouldn't, very low reading, and then on the side where my reading was fine before I put the bulb in drops very low....any help?
Just to confirm, when you test the diode (DMM in diode/continuity mode), it tests fine with bulb removed and tests incorrectly with bulb installed?
If that's the case, remove the socket from the circuit (tape over any bare wires and maintain any daisy-chains) and see if the lights work properly. If not you have a short someplace.
Yes sir. This is all with the machine powered off. I check the bulbs that are directly near it on the boat and none of the others have this problem. They all test the same with bulb in or out except for #38. I tried changing the diode 3 times, all of which tested fine uninstalled, fine installed with no bulb, and then add in bulb and the reading changes. I know next to zero about electronics but I figured this must be an indicator of something. I don't have any extra sockets but thought maybe just changing out the socket could help.
Ok thanks Terry, I am off work in about an hour and headed on a 10 hour road trip this evening but will try that tomorrow or Sunday, thanks for the help.
What exactly do you mean by maintain the daisy chain?
Unless the socket is the last one in the chain it will have two column wires (yel-xxx) and two row wires (red-xxx) attached to each lug. When you remove the two yel-xxx wires from the socket you will need to attach them to each other or the rest of the lights in the column won't work. Ditto for the row.
I did as you said. The light only had three wires going to it 2 yellow with orange stripe which I removed from socket and kept connected. The other wire coming to it is red and gray. I have the gray stripe on the diode facing this wire just like it is on the rest of the lights. I am including pictures since I don't know proper terminology.
The good news is all lights seem to work properly now. I just started a game to check but I am about to go into single lamp test to confirm.
Single lamp test confirms all lamps working properly now except for #38 the left side feeding frenzy.
Sounds like you've got it. Since there are some other possibilities other than the socket, just check the following when you install the new one. Diode orientation, wires going to correct lugs (compare to another socket) and make sure there aren't any bare wires, etc. touching the socket when it's installed.
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