(Topic ID: 310461)

Fish Tales, bizarre logic problem!?

By TheOnlyest

2 years ago



Topic Stats

You

Linked Games

#1 2 years ago

Hey gang, first time i've ever had to post in this thread!
I purchased a mostly working Fish Tales several weeks ago, I didn't really play it other than a bit during my inspection at the sellers house. I brought it home and immediately started tearing it down and restoring it, which is now done. I finally got to play it and found a weird issue that took the fun right out of it...

What's happening:
When you alternate boat ramps enough times to light monster fish, then hit the spinner (or left loop switch manually), which collects the bonus... The game crashes and resets. Hitting the spinner or loop switch at any other time during gameplay operates and scores normally, and all switches report flawlessly in all switch test modes... I can recreate the crash by manually hitting the switches with my finger 100% of the time. I can even recreate the issue using a matrix tester, so its not any of the switches or diodes on the PF! The power supply checks out perfect, and I also have a kahr board for testing, and that makes no difference either.

What ive done, after being certain that all switches, diodes, wiring, etc are good:
I swapped the FT ROM into a CPU board from another WPC game, and the glitch is gone, so ive definitely narrowed the issue down to the CPU board.

The CPU board has no hacks, its minty clean and shows no sign of any component on the board ever being replaced, the U20 is even still soldered in.
I pulled the Asic chip, cleaned the contacts and reseated it, I also pulled and reseated U6, no change.
I replaced the MPU (U4), no change.
I cleaned all the ribbon cable pins and replaced all the ribbon cables, no change.

Aside from this one scenario glitch, the game plays 100% perfectly as far as I can tell, there are no issues with audio or the DMD either.
I have been working on Williams system 11 & WPC games for nearly 31 years, and I have never run into anything like this before!

I would really appreciate some advice, thanks in advance!

#2 2 years ago

I wonder about flashers associated with monster fish? If that was/is the case can you force a reset in coil test?

#3 2 years ago

I suspect bad RAM.

#4 2 years ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

I wonder about flashers associated with monster fish? If that was/is the case can you force a reset in coil test?

Hey Cheddar, I thought of this too during my early troubleshooting efforts, not only do I get no resets in coil or flasher test modes, I was able to manually cause the reset with the flasher circuits disconnected from the P/D board.

Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

I suspect bad RAM.

Thanks for chiming in, its certainly is a possibility... I did do a RAM clear early on, but i'd be very interested if you would elaborate on your theory about this?

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from TheOnlyest:

i'd be very interested if you would elaborate on your theory about this?

In a 'typical' computer program data gets put into RAM and later read from RAM. If a particular area of the RAM isn't functioning the program could crash (or do other odd things) when it tries to read from RAM but gets an unexpected result.

The Fish Tales manual doesn't have the WPC CPU parts list or schematic or I'd suggest which chip might be bad. Not even sure how you might test it other that trying a different chip. The theory of operation from the Pinwiki ( https://online.fliphtml5.com/vrtyz/djtz/#p=35 ) says it's a 2064.
barakandl might know how to test it.

#6 2 years ago

This manual has all that... https://www.ipdb.org/files/861/Williams_1992_Fish_Tales_English_Manual.pdf
But not really a true schematic... Pages 54 & 55 are useful

#7 2 years ago

Could very well be the ram. U8 is a 2064 or 6264 SRAM. Your game would benefit using a NVRAM, removing the need for batteries and possibly fixing this issue. With all the tests you've done, there aren't many possibilities left. RAM / CPU / ASIC would be my guess, in order. RAM is always prone to failures over time and if it's the original part, a long time has passed since the day is was manufactured. A bad CPU would mostlikely lock / reset at other times as well. I'm also guessing a bad ASIC would give more issues than a precise one like this. I would definitely change the ram to start with.

https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/RAMTRON

https://arcarc.xmission.com/Pinball/PDF%20Pinball%20Misc/Williams%20WPC%20Schematic%20manual.pdf

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from Roamin:

Could very well be the ram. U8 is a 2064 or 6264 SRAM. Your game would benefit using a NVRAM, removing the need for batteries and possibly fixing this issue. With all the tests you've done, there aren't many possibilities left. RAM / CPU / ASIC would be my guess, in order. RAM is always prone to failures over time and if it's the original part, a long time has passed since the day is was manufactured. A bad CPU would mostlikely lock / reset at other times as well. I'm also guessing a bad ASIC would give more issues than a precise one like this. I would definitely change the ram to start with.
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/RAMTRON
https://arcarc.xmission.com/Pinball/PDF%20Pinball%20Misc/Williams%20WPC%20Schematic%20manual.pdf

Thanks for chiming in Roamin! I tend to agree with you and YeOld. My game is a very early version (# 114) and has the 2064 RAM. I have a RAMTRON chip on the way, along with the latest ROM (because the game has a prototype ROM in it now) from Matt's Basement Arcade, which should be here by the weekend. I will update with the results... Fingers crossed!!

#9 2 years ago

Ok so, I got the RAMTRON NVRAM chip and installed it, and the issue is apparently gone! I could no longer manually cause the issue and I played a dozen games and no crashes or malfunctions of any kind! As an added bonus, I now have a socketed RAM slot and no batteries required!

Thanks to YeOldPinPlayer & Roamin, you guys apparently nailed it!

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
$ 8.50
Hardware
NO GOUGE PINBALL™
 
$ 5.00
Cabinet - Other
Creekside Hideaway, LLC
 
$ 24.95
Lighting - Led
Mitchell Lighting
 
$ 1,059.00
Flipper Parts
Mircoplayfields
 
$ 9.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 49.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
$ 60.00
Cabinet - Decals
Pinball Haus
 
$ 59.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
$ 9.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 329.99
Lighting - Other
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
$ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
 
$ 30.00
Playfield - Other
YouBentMyWookie
 
From: $ 189.99
Lighting - Led
Comet Pinball
 
$ 109.00
Cabinet Parts
Starcade Amusement
 
12,500 (OBO)
$ 26.50
6,400 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Pleasant Hill, CA
$ 49.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Watertown, MA
$ 225.00
Cabinet - (Alt) Translites
FlyLand Designs
 
$ 119.99
Displays
FlyLand Designs
 
$ 49.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Pixels Arcade Games
 
$ 14.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ULEKstore
 
$ 79.99
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
PinGraffix Pinside Shop
 
$ 220.00
Playfields
Pinball Haus
 
$ 399.00
Cabinet - Decals
Mircoplayfields
 
$ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
 
5,999
Machine - For Sale
Tacoma, WA
$ 84.99
Displays
FlyLand Designs
 

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fish-tales-bizarre-logic-problem and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.