(Topic ID: 146309)

First Time Pin! Two Questions!

By fatcake

6 years ago


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  • Latest reply 5 years ago by fatcake
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#1 6 years ago

I finally caved and bought my first pinball! It's a Fireball Classic. I've been able to do a lot of searching and have answered most of my questions, but I still have two questions that are stumping me.

1. The tilt doesn't seem to work at all. I've attached a pic of the assembly below. I've started a game and have physically pushed the plumbob into the brass housing and the game will not tilt. The silver colored weight that's next to the plumb bob works fine. If I get that silver weight to make contact it will shut down the game and restart. If I push the ball on the guide that's on the top of the assembly against the switch on the right, the game doesn't do anything. I'm not sure if these issues are connected at all, but I'd figure I'd give that info anyway.
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2. This issue makes me cry. Some fool applied a piece of adhesive foam directly onto the backglass. IMG_20151209_203242_01.jpg When the pin is all lit up, this is quite the eyesore. IMG_20151208_212527.jpg From what I know, backglass artwork is very fragile and I'm very afraid to remove this adhesive foam (maybe I shouldn't remove it at all). I'm afraid that the adhesive backing will pull up the artwork and make it look worse than it does now. Do you guys have any suggestions on how to safely remove this? Should I even take the risk at all?

Thanks in advance! I'm very excited to be a part of this community!

#2 6 years ago

1. I'm not sure if that is the case with older games but the tilt bob is deactivated when the door is open?
2. That really sucks. Wonder if freeze spray can weaken the glue but not affect the art?

#3 6 years ago

Welcome to the world of pinball! Start clearing space in your house for more games - they multiply like rabbits.

1. Just noticed, the copper wire that should attach to the wire that supports the tilt bob appears to be disconnected.

Side note - For formal testing (probably not necessary here, but i wrote this out before noticing the obvious) Pull the ball out of the game, and put it in switch test mode. You can get into the various test modes using the red button by the volume knob on the inside of the coin door - probably towards the top of the coin door, facing upwards, if it's like games from a year or two earlier. If you don't have a manual (which will detail the test procedures) you can download one for free on IPDB.org

2. Don't mess with it, trust me on this. That doesn't look 1/1000th as bad as if you were to pull up a huge strip of paint across the middle of the glass, which almost certainly would happen.
You should probably sell me the game, instead.

#4 6 years ago

So I *think* the wire (circled in green) should be attached to the tilt plumb wire (where the red arrow is)

I've got a cat on my lap, and will double-check as soon as he gets up.

*edit* I have verified this is correct. You can either solder it to there, or if that's not an option, you can attach it to one of the screws that holes the wire hanger to get by.

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#5 6 years ago
Quoted from fatcake:

From what I know, backglass artwork is very fragile and I'm very afraid to remove this adhesive foam (maybe I shouldn't remove it at all). I'm afraid that the adhesive backing will pull up the artwork and make it look worse than it does now. Do you guys have any suggestions on how to safely remove this? Should I even take the risk at all?

Leave it alone!

Nothing is more rare than an unfaded FBC backglass.

#6 6 years ago

Congrats on the machine! Good score..
But please do not think anymore about removing that foam. I think the slightest movement will result in pulling off a large flake of silk screen thus leading to the beginning of the end for that b/g. They are so fragile. If it bothers you so much lit up, buy another (repro) and keep as a spare. I'd take a few good high res photos of it, unlit, w/o glare as well.

#7 6 years ago

I couldnt handle that stripe. Id get some Goo Gone on a q tip and put a tiny bit in a corner and leave it for a day, see if it does anything to the paint. If not I would slowly, over the course of a week or so, drip some where the adhesive makes contact with the paint, near the edge of the glass, just an inch or so piece. I'd strip the foam off carefully to reveal the backside of the adhesive strip and soak it from the back too. Letmit sit and do its thing, hopefully getting to the point that its totally broken down into a gooey liquid so you arent actually pulling up anything, more like carefully wiping the softened adhesive off.

Again I would try this in the most inconspicuous spot you can, which I assume would be by the edge, so if the worst hqppens you #1 only lift a tiny spot of paint that u may be able to glue back down and #2 do it far away from the middle of the backglass.

I have never tried anything like that, but I know I couldnt live with that. Itmwould bug the crap out of me.

#8 5 years ago

Collin you were dead on!!! I soldered that wire to the plumbob and now the tilt works fine! Not sure how I managed to take a picture of that loose wire and completely miss that. Hahah oh well.

I decided that I was going to see how stuck the foam was. If I had to apply any sort of medium force to remove it, then I was going to leave the foam for good. Thankfully it came off with no issues at all! The adhesive did leave a small amount of residue behind. Should I try to clean it with something?

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It looks so much better now!

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So now I'm down to one last question! A few of the rollover targets refuse to work. I tried cleaning the contacts with a business card and I bought a tool to bend the leaf spring to make sure that the switch is making contact when the ball rolls over. It seems like the switches are totally making contact but the game doesn't register it. Any suggestions on how to troubleshoot the rollover targets?

You guys are amazing! I'm so excited to be a part of this hobby and community!

#9 5 years ago
Quoted from fatcake:

A few of the rollover targets refuse to work. I tried cleaning the contacts with a business card and I bought a tool to bend the leaf spring to make sure that the switch is making contact when the ball rolls over. It seems like the switches are totally making contact but the game doesn't register it. Any suggestions on how to troubleshoot the rollover targets?

Look in the manual and see if they are all on the same column or row.

#10 5 years ago

You got lucky with BG... Now don't touch it!

#11 5 years ago

I can't believe that came off of that back glass with no damage. Typically can't breath on them without it flaking off. Go buy a lottery ticket quick !! Good luck with the game

#12 5 years ago
Quoted from fatcake:

Thankfully it came off with no issues at all! The adhesive did leave a small amount of residue behind. Should I try to clean it with something?

It looks beautiful! DO NOT try to clean it.

#13 5 years ago

Vid1900, turns out the rollover targets are on the same switch number. I had one switch that was making constant contact, which caused the rest of the rollovers to stop working. I adjusted the switch and the problem went away.

Not too many issues left on this table now! Thank you so much for your help everyone!

I guess now that this table is good to go, I need to go out and get another.

3 weeks later
#14 5 years ago

So I'm back with another question...

I hosted a party and fireball got a good 4 hours of constant play. Towards the end of night the left flipper got stuck in the up position. I knew enough that it's not uncommon for coils to stay energized, so I immediately turned off the pin. The flipper did not come back down. When I lifted up the playfield to look at the flipper, there was a strong smell of burning/hot plastic. If I try to move the flipper up and down with my hand there is a lot of resistance. The flipper doesn't want to move at all. It feels seized up. So I'm assuming my flipper problem is mechanical and not electrical.

Do I need to go immediately to buying a flipper rebuild kit and rebuild the flipper? Or is there anything I can try before I rebuild?

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from fatcake:

there was a strong smell of burning/hot plastic.

You melted the sleeve and most likely the coil. Remove the coil and try to remove the sleeve, if it wont come out buy a new coil.

#16 5 years ago

First, it is better to start new threads for new issues.

If the coil got hot it may have deformed the bobbin. The coil bobbin has a sleeve inside for the plunger , you may only need to replace this bit. Remove the coil and see if the rest of the mechanism is free. If all good then maybe only a new sleeve required.

Now the most likely reason for the overheated coil is the EOS sw not opening.

Flipper coils are two coils in one

When you press the flipper button, you energies the two coils in parallel, giving you power to smack that ball. When the End of stroke SW is opened, the two coils be come in series, giving a much higher resistance. The idea is that though higher resistances , coil will not allow lots of current (Not get hot).

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from fatcake:

I hosted a party and fireball got a good 4 hours of constant play. Towards the end of night the left flipper got stuck in the up position. I knew enough that it's not uncommon for coils to stay energized, so I immediately turned off the pin. The flipper did not come back down. When I lifted up the playfield to look at the flipper, there was a strong smell of burning/hot plastic. If I try to move the flipper up and down with my hand there is a lot of resistance. The flipper doesn't want to move at all. It feels seized up. So I'm assuming my flipper problem is mechanical and not electrical.

Your EOS Switch was probably not gapped enough, so whenever the flipper was held in the up position, the high power section of the coil was still on.

Quoted from fatcake:

Do I need to go immediately to buying a flipper rebuild kit and rebuild the flipper? Or is there anything I can try before I rebuild?

If you have any spare coil sleeves, the Bally flippers use the same sleeves as the pops and saucers.

Like Grumpy said, the old one might be melted into the coil itself.

1. See if you can get that sleeve out (press the coil flat on a table). With tape, mark where the wires were soldered to the coil in relation to THE BAND ON THE COIL DIODE.

2. If you can't get sleeve out, order both coil and rebuild kit.

3. Make sure you properly gap the new EOS Switches included in the rebuild kit.

4. Your replacement coil could have the Diode Band facing the other way. MAKE SURE you solder the wire that went on the old coil's banded side to the new coils banded side.

Directions:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers/page/11#post-1855100

#18 5 years ago

Ok. Before I take anything apart, I just want to go over the core concepts and make sure I understand everything clearly.

Quoted from vid1900:

Your EOS Switch was probably not gapped enough, so whenever the flipper was held in the up position, the high power section of the coil was still on.

It looks like my EOS switch is missing the rubber piece that helps the EOS switch break open when the flipper is up. This should explain why the coil burned up the plastic sleeve, correct? So I definitely need a rebuild kit for a new sleeve and EOS switch (I guess while I'm at it I replace everything else too).

Quoted from vid1900:

1. See if you can get that sleeve out (press the coil flat on a table). With tape, mark where the wires were soldered to the coil in relation to THE BAND ON THE COIL DIODE.

So in this case my bands on the coil diodes are on the "bottom" and the wires follow a specific order. If have to get a new coil and the diode bands were on the "top" then I would need to flip the ordering of the wires. If the diodes are different then I'll post on here to verify I got the wire ordering right. Sorry I'm a total noob.

What the removal steps for the coil? Just de-solder the wires and unscrew the assembly from the table?

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#19 5 years ago
Quoted from fatcake:

It looks like my EOS switch is missing the rubber piece that helps the EOS switch break open when the flipper is up. This should explain why the coil burned up the plastic sleeve, correct?

Correct.

It's always more satisfying to know exactly why something failed.

Quoted from fatcake:

So I definitely need a rebuild kit for a new sleeve and EOS switch (I guess while I'm at it I replace everything else too).

Yes.

But you also get the added bonus of getting rid of the super sloppy Linear flipper mechs and converting them over to conventional.

You won't believe how tight the game will play with conventional flippers!

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers/page/11#post-1855100

Quoted from fatcake:

So in this case my bands on the coil diodes are on the "bottom" and the wires follow a specific order. If have to get a new coil and the diode bands were on the "top" then I would need to flip the ordering of the wires.

The bands on the diodes give you the roadmap to put it back together, no matter how the new coil arrives:

Ground return gets it's own outside coil lug and the unbanded side of the diode.

The Center lug gets either side of the EOS Switch.

Power goes to the outside lug with the Banded side of the diode AND the unused side of the EOS Switch.

Quoted from fatcake:

Sorry I'm a total noob.

Everybody started that way, myself included.

Quoted from fatcake:

What the removal steps for the coil?

Label wires a few inches away from the coil, unsolder (you may have to add a glob of new solder to get the old to melt).

Remember the new coil gets installed with the solder lugs AWAY from the coil stop. You may need to snip a few zip ties to free up some slack.

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#20 5 years ago

That one will be EASY to replace. Look at all that room!!!!! Wishin' my Xenon had that much space. That was a PAIN and so crowded!

#21 5 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

1. I'm not sure if that is the case with older games but the tilt bob is deactivated when the door is open?
2. That really sucks. Wonder if freeze spray can weaken the glue but not affect the art?

Freeze spray + backglass = damage.
This is not a playfield, folks.
Do not do it, as it will lift paint.
It might not be evident immediately, but the contraction of temperature is not a a positive thing on glass.

The remaining residue can be removed with Goo gone and a little soaking by hand, carefully...
Do not be aggressive, do not "rub", let it do its work for a short time (<2-3 minutes) and use a light soft rag to wipe away.
Keep the backglass completely horizontal on table where it cannot be hit on the corners.
Do not use paper towels, as they are too abrasive.
Notice I said Goo Gone, NOT Goof Off, or you will have NO backglass.
Seal the backglass with Krylon Triple Thick glaze IMMEDIATELY, after cleaning with alcohol, except in an area that might be lifting as exposed.

#22 5 years ago
Quoted from danczaz:

You got lucky with BG... Now don't touch it!

Quoted from FXR:

I can't believe that came off of that back glass with no damage. Typically can't breath on them without it flaking off. Go buy a lottery ticket quick !! Good luck with the game

Quoted from wayout440:

It looks beautiful! DO NOT try to clean it.

1 week later
#23 5 years ago

Consider yourself lucky the foam came off the backglass w/no damage. Leave it alone for now. Congrats on the 1st pin. Have fun. Repairs and pinball go hand in hand...........

#24 5 years ago

I started taking apart the flipper mech and couldn't undo the hex nut that holds in the flipper arm. I couldn't get enough leverage with the allen wrench. Any suggestions on how to get this loose?

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#25 5 years ago
Quoted from fatcake:

I started taking apart the flipper mech and couldn't undo the hex nut that holds in the flipper arm. I couldn't get enough leverage with the allen wrench. Any suggestions on how to get this loose?

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If you have a can of WD 40, with a tube, you could direct a small amount in there and let it sit. Watch the over spray.

#26 5 years ago
Quoted from fatcake:

I started taking apart the flipper mech and couldn't undo the hex nut that holds in the flipper arm. I couldn't get enough leverage with the allen wrench. Any suggestions on how to get this loose?

It's better to use a socket wrench with an extension if you have a clear shot at it.

First, turn the set screw the wrong way (clockwise) to break the set.

Then turn it CCW.

If it won't budge, it's probably Loctited, so heat it up with a micro torch or really big soldering GUN.

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from fatcake:

I started taking apart the flipper mech and couldn't undo the hex nut that holds in the flipper arm. I couldn't get enough leverage with the allen wrench. Any suggestions on how to get this loose?

unnamed_(resized).jpg

Get a set of T-hex wrenches.
My assumption is you are using the wrong tools with an L mini hex wrench. If you are cheap, take the L wrench mount it on a set of vise grips perpendicular for leverage, the screw will come out. Otherwise you are going to bust your knuckles or damage another assembly when your fingers slip.

#28 5 years ago

Thanks guys! The torch suggestion worked great!

I ended up just doing a regular rebuild and kept it stock. I didn't feel like I quite had the confidence yet to take on the awesome conversion Vid suggested.

Thank you all so much for your help!

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