(Topic ID: 178205)

First Time NIB Pin Buyer - What to do?


By djreddog

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 52 posts
  • 36 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by o-din
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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    #1 2 years ago

    All,

    I just put a deposit down on my first NIB Pinball machine, Aerosmith Pro. Is there anything I should do when purchasing NIB pins?

    Do you place mylar in certain locations to protect the machine?

    Do you perform any type of preventative maintenance?

    I thought I recall people doing something to the shooter lane but can't remember what and if it applies to a NIB pin.

    Are they any must have mods?

    I was thinking about possibly adding a shaker motor to the game as the only real mod, but wasn't sure if that made sense and which one to buy since there are like 3 different models.

    Any feedback and advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

    #2 2 years ago
    Quoted from djreddog:

    Do you perform any type of preventative maintenance?

    Just make sure you understand now that Stern recently has some MAJOR quality issues that still are not rectified. Playfields actually chipping off and decals pealing off ocassionaly.

    Also, make sure you understand that they seem to rarely finish code and you may find that Aerosmith (assuming it wont be selling well based on lack of enthusiasm on the online forums) will especially see little code improvement over time.

    Since that is out of the way, I always clean and wax the game before use. I look for spots where the balls will be dropping lots (from the big toy, around pops, and ball drops) and put down mylar after waxing (the maxing makes it possible to peal up the mylar easier at a later date if needed. I typically pitch the crappy balls that come with it and put in some clean super shiny ones from pbife. I personally also like to get rid of the crappy black rubber and put on silicone titans as they will help to keep the game clean for longer.

    #3 2 years ago

    I would get a shooter lane protector, for sure. Easy to install and provides some nice peace of mind. With the game not out yet, it's hard to know what sort of needs it will have. I wouldn't worry about mylar addition on a new game for the home, but if you're really concerned there are mylar circles to go around the pop bumpers and half moon mylar stickers to put in front of slings.

    Honestly, the most important thing is to just play the ever living crap out of it and enjoy it. If things go wrong, we'll be here to help. If there are any flaws or damage that aren't your fault, speak up and let your distributor know.

    #4 2 years ago
    Quoted from djreddog:

    All,
    I just put a deposit down on my first NIB Pinball machine, Aerosmith Pro. Is there anything I should do when purchasing NIB pins?
    Do you place mylar in certain locations to protect the machine?
    Do you perform any type of preventative maintenance?
    I thought I recall people doing something to the shooter lane but can't remember what and if it applies to a NIB pin.
    Are they any must have mods?
    I was thinking about possibly adding a shaker motor to the game as the only real mod, but wasn't sure if that made sense and which one to buy since there are like 3 different models.
    Any feedback and advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

    Stick to Sterns Shaker incase there is an issue. like the was a couple of years back of shakers blowing up boards.

    Shooter lane protector is a good recomendation. If you want ultimate protection you can order Mirco's full poly play field protectors. Otherwise if Cliffy makes a protector for it then buy it =). When in doubt trust Cliffy.

    JJ

    16
    #5 2 years ago

    I would just mylar the shooter lane because some douchebag is going to want pics if you want to sell this thing in a year or 2.
    Don't spend a bunch of monies on dolling it up to look like Steven Tylers ancient ball sack, just enjoy it.

    #6 2 years ago

    Before powering up for the 1st time lift playfield and make sure everything is tight.

    #7 2 years ago

    Looking at pics of Aerosmith Pro, it looks as if the ramps drop down on the inlane switches, not above them. On my ST Pro, it's the same thing. After ~600 plays, a wood fiber started to fray. Not overly concerned, wood is a fibrous material, but it did make me go order a pair of Cliffy's Slot Switch Protectors. I don't want those inlane slots wearing over time and this is a simple solution.

    I'd also recommend his shooter lane protector setup and anything else that may need protection on this game.

    #9 2 years ago

    Just set it up and play it.

    Quoted from TheLaw: Don't spend a bunch of monies on dolling it up to look like Steven Tylers ancient ball sack, just enjoy it.

    What are you, some kind of sicko?!

    #11 2 years ago

    My routine prior to playing new game:
    Install -
    Cliffy's from Passion for Pinball (including shooter lane and drain trough)
    Plastic protectors usually from Pinbits
    Airball protection (if available)
    Silverjet premium pinballs from Marco Specialties
    Superbands

    Clean playfield with Novus 1 and wax
    Check all switches with glass off

    Favorite added mods: Shaker motor, pinblades or mirror blades, custom shooter rod, speaker grills (speaker lights also nice)
    Maintenance: Vacuum coil dust, clean and wax monthly, change balls every 6 months
    Shaker motor preference: Stern shaker from Pinball Life - provides some shake but not overwhelming

    #12 2 years ago

    NIB Pin Buyer - What to do? Wait for the code

    I like Mirror blades and Speaker light they are a must for me

    #13 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    What are you, some kind of sicko?!

    Around here I am for just playing my game man

    #14 2 years ago

    Get a HUO KISS Premium for the same price and load Aerosmith songs on it. Essentially the same game, and you'd have a Premium instead of a Pro.

    Then in 2 years, check and see if Aerosmith has completed code and decide what to do.

    #15 2 years ago
    Quoted from djreddog:

    Is there anything I should do when purchasing NIB pins?

    Yes. Get your deposit back and buy used later.

    #16 2 years ago

    I would strongly advise on holding off on your purchase until Stern addresses their QC issues.

    #17 2 years ago

    djreddog,

    The Quality Control issues are fairly well documented here:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hey-stern-are-you-serious
    This is a very serious problem which should be understood before you buy NIB.

    The recommendations to wait is good advice given Stern hasn't yet began replacing defective Playfields. Until they can demonstrate a good customer relationship; you are better off waiting until they can do so. You don't have to buy right away... Or at least tell your distributor you want to wait until a later build run.

    #18 2 years ago

    Replace the balls (very important, Stern balls are not of good quality), wax the playfield, put mylar and other playfield protectors as you see fit, play the crap out of it.

    I know these topics are specific to Aerosmith, but the question has been asked several times and previous threads have good pointers. E.g:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wtb-acdc-premium-2
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/nibwax-first
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/delivery-day-first-nib
    ...

    #19 2 years ago

    Thanks for all the feedback. I have been following Stern's QC issues over the past year, but I'm willing to roll the dice on this one so I'm going to keep my deposit on Aerosmith and hope for the best. If it ends up having the same QC issues, so be it but I do appreciate the heads up about it. Looks like I need to order a few things to have them ready to go when my delivery arrives!

    #20 2 years ago
    Quoted from Hougie:

    Yes. Get your deposit back and buy used later.

    I realize that some don't get my snarkiness but the core issue is that you are absolutely rolling the dice. I get the need to try the NIB experience but dont be surprised if you have issues and Sterns message is grab your ankles.

    I waited until Metallica had mature code and no QC issues before I bought. No regrets at all.

    My GOT had less than a month of plays and started ghosting inserts and it was freaking crickets from those clowns. I'm sorry but they can keep laughing all the way to the bank on someone else's dime.

    That said, I sincerely hope you have a good experience. Aerosmith does look nice. Hopefully they have their crap together on this one.

    #21 2 years ago

    Retract your deposit and get a HUO at a lower price without having to worry about ghosting etc. Anyone who buys a NIB as of recent is taking a risk, a big one.

    #22 2 years ago

    Thanks for all the warnings guys, but I'm set on rolling the dice on this one. I noticed the GB playfields are now being swapped out. While I hope I don't have to swap out a playfield, it won't be the end of the world if it happens.

    #23 2 years ago
    Quoted from djreddog:

    I noticed the GB playfields are now being swapped out. While I hope I don't have to swap out a playfield, it won't be the end of the world if it happens.

    as a heads up, even post swap people are still having ghosting. In one case it appears Stern even purposefully smudged the pf date stamp so it was not readable.

    Either way, pf issue does not appear to be fixed yet.

    #24 2 years ago

    You have to understand the chances are not good and if you do get a damaged pf, the burden is on you to get it replaced. I have bought 2 NIBs from them, but will not buy another one until the QC issues are resolved. I had to have my Metallica pf swapped because it chipped. That was enough.

    #25 2 years ago

    The pf issues have kept me from buying anything nib from last year. I want a gb prem but can't imagine dealing with pg issues on 6k plus new pins.

    #26 2 years ago

    The best advice to any new NIB buyer is quite simple.

    A person should wait until a game is actually released to allow you evaluate the product, even if through electronic social mediums, if a game is not able to be tested in person.
    There are simply so many reasons for this advice, and I will only share a few key aspects.

    If a person can afford a NIB game, they can afford to travel to test play a game for a single weekend.
    Did enthusiasts know you can contact Stern and ASK where they will be planning to test play games on location?
    Go to Las Vegas for a weekend, as every single new Stern game shows up in New York-New York casino within a month of production.
    You pre-purchased a game that is still in development, and is the #1 mistake of new buyers.
    There should be no rush to buy a product in this industry.
    There really is no significant advantage, regardless of what manufacturers try to tell pinball enthusiasts.
    This is simply marketing.
    If a person wants to place a refundable deposit, that should be the limit of the decision.
    If the game is successful, it will be available for years after it is produced, either new or used in HUO condition now based on the market.
    This includes LEs.
    This is not a wood rail pitch and bat collectible baseball machine made in the 1950s.
    This is the not pre-1999 when games were not as readily available in the private consumer market.
    If I want a game, I can normally find a superb+ example of any machine title within three months unless it is truly rare either due to extremely low production, sample, or prototype status.
    Even then, based on resources, I can normally find an example within a year or less.
    Anybody that says "this is impossible", feel free to talk to me, and ask for a game they want.
    However, be prepared to pay for a quality example, and not be thrifty, if they want a nice example.
    You cannot pry a rare machine out of collector hands for pennies, sometimes not even for money, but rather in parts such as playfields, backglasses, and assemblies.
    That really is the source of enjoyment for most collectors after the first 5-10 years of collecting anyway.

    Any game produced in the past 15 years, does not qualify at all, unless you believe that a BM66 SLE will never be available on the open market, which will occur as well, most likely in less than 6 months, and probably will show up here, after the new owner gets tired of their toy.

    Focusing on protecting something that has not been evaluated is not particularly helpful, as you do not know what needs to protected in the first place.
    This is like protecting the "Invisible Wonder Woman" airplane leather cockpit seats with Armor All.
    I can estimate concepts of problem areas noted on playfield design already, but photos are like game flyers, features actually do CHANGE.
    There are plenty of basic maintenance areas already noted, but not a single one are game specific.
    The decision to buy early is made hundreds of new times a year, based on instant gratification concept, and it seems that many must make this fundamental error at least once in this hobby before they learn the lesson.
    That is of course, unless there is no concern regarding disposable income.

    It really is not about the money itself, but more about what a buyer is receiving FOR THEIR MONEY?
    What basic pinball feature will Stern strip out of Aerosmith from their previous title?
    It has happened to every single game produced since 2012 starting after Star Trek.
    Look closely at the features breakdown sheets of all their games, and see the changes.
    Learn and prepare to be surprised.

    This excludes any additional considerations of Stern's quality control production, code completion, or production delays.
    I have no doubts that Stern's latest reveal with actually built and shipped in a relatively timely fashion, unlike all other manufacturers, but technical issues are generally discovered after a game has shipped.
    You can almost guarantee that the code with be at most 80% complete at best case on shipping release.
    The days of "flipping power" to sell a game for a minimal loss if you do not like the game, it has problems, or has design flaws are coming to a slow close.
    There are many collectors that wished they listened this advice when they bought games like KISS, WOF, WWE, 24, Shrek, Avatar, etc.
    For every "hit" there is at least one bomb, regardless of quality of artwork.
    Sometimes there are 2-3 in a row before they have a "winner".

    "You can expend as much effort as you want protecting a problem child, but the child is still a problem without corrective action."
    - TBK

    Nobody is punishing Stern for their mistakes, people keep readily accepting certain issues as "normal business industry challenges" or out of nominal ignorance.
    Some problems definitely are challenges, but some are simply excuses for cost cutting unbeknownst to new enthusiasts.

    #27 2 years ago
    Quoted from djreddog:

    Thanks for all the warnings guys, but I'm set on rolling the dice on this one. I noticed the GB playfields are now being swapped out. While I hope I don't have to swap out a playfield, it won't be the end of the world if it happens.

    Ha you act like if you have a problem it's a simple phone call and boom new playfield is on the way. If you have what Stern considers minor chipping and ghosting and they ignore you like others I bet you will regret your decision as you will be stuck. See you in the "Hey Stern! Are you serious?" Thread in a few months...

    #28 2 years ago

    Buy, be patient, and enjoy

    #29 2 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    The best advice to any new NIB buyer is quite simple.
    A person should wait until a game is actually released to allow you evaluate the product, even if through electronic social mediums, if a game is not able to be tested in person.
    There are simply so many reasons for this advice, and I will only share a few key aspects.
    If a person can afford a NIB game, they can afford to travel to test play a game for a single weekend.
    Did enthusiasts know you can contact Stern and ASK where they will be planning to test play games on location?
    Go to Las Vegas for a weekend, as every single new Stern game shows up in New York-New York casino within a month of production.
    You pre-purchased a game that is still in development, and is the #1 mistake of new buyers.
    There should be no rush to buy a product in this industry.
    There really is no significant advantage, regardless of what manufacturers try to tell pinball enthusiasts.
    This is simply marketing.
    If a person wants to place a refundable deposit, that should be the limit of the decision.
    If the game is successful, it will be available for years after it is produced, either new or used in HUO condition now based on the market.
    This includes LEs.
    This is not a wood rail pitch and bat collectible baseball machine made in the 1950s.
    This is the not pre-1999 when games were not as readily available in the private consumer market.
    If I want a game, I can normally find a superb+ example of any machine title within three months unless it is truly rare either due to extremely low production, sample, or prototype status.
    Even then, based on resources, I can normally find an example within a year or less.
    Anybody that says "this is impossible", feel free to talk to me, and ask for a game they want.
    However, be prepared to pay for a quality example, and not be thrifty, if they want a nice example.
    You cannot pry a rare machine out of collector hands for pennies, sometimes not even for money, but rather in parts such as playfields, backglasses, and assemblies.
    That really is the source of enjoyment for most collectors after the first 5-10 years of collecting anyway.
    Any game produced in the past 15 years, does not qualify at all, unless you believe that a BM66 SLE will never be available on the open market, which will occur as well, most likely in less than 6 months, and probably will show up here, after the new owner gets tired of their toy.
    Focusing on protecting something that has not been evaluated is not particularly helpful, as you do not know what needs to protected in the first place.
    This is like protecting the "Invisible Wonder Woman" airplane leather cockpit seats with Armor All.
    I can estimate concepts of problem areas noted on playfield design already, but photos are like game flyers, features actually do CHANGE.
    There are plenty of basic maintenance areas already noted, but not a single one are game specific.
    The decision to buy early is made hundreds of new times a year, based on instant gratification concept, and it seems that many must make this fundamental error at least once in this hobby before they learn the lesson.
    That is of course, unless there is no concern regarding disposable income.
    It really is not about the money itself, but more about what a buyer is receiving FOR THEIR MONEY?
    What basic pinball feature will Stern strip out of Aerosmith from their previous title?
    It has happened to every single game produced since 2012 starting after Star Trek.
    Look closely at the features breakdown sheets of all their games, and see the changes.
    Learn and prepare to be surprised.
    This excludes any additional considerations of Stern's quality control production, code completion, or production delays.
    I have no doubts that Stern's latest reveal with actually built and shipped in a relatively timely fashion, unlike all other manufacturers, but technical issues are generally discovered after a game has shipped.
    You can almost guarantee that the code with be at most 80% complete at best case on shipping release.
    The days of "flipping power" to sell a game for a minimal loss if you do not like the game, it has problems, or has design flaws are coming to a slow close.
    There are many collectors that wished they listened this advice when they bought games like KISS, WOF, WWE, 24, Shrek, Avatar, etc.
    For every "hit" there is at least one bomb, regardless of quality of artwork.
    Sometimes there are 2-3 in a row before they have a "winner".
    "You can expend as much effort as you want protecting a problem child, but the child is still a problem without corrective action."
    - TBK
    Nobody is punishing Stern for their mistakes, people keep readily accepting certain issues as "normal business industry challenges" or out of nominal ignorance.
    Some problems definitely are challenges, but some are simply excuses for cost cutting unbeknownst to new enthusiasts.

    Quite the lecture

    21
    #30 2 years ago

    After some thoughtful thinking I'm reconsidering my stance on ordering a day one launch of Aerosmith. I've pulled back my deposit. Maybe I'll wait for the Allentown show in May and purchase one at that time if all the kinks are worked out by then. Thanks for all the feedback.

    #31 2 years ago
    Quoted from djreddog:

    After some thoughtful thinking I'm reconsidering my stance on ordering a day one launch of Aerosmith. I've pulled back my deposit. Maybe I'll wait for the Allentown show in May and purchase one at that time if all the kinks are worked out by then. Thanks for all the feedback.

    Smart plan, especially lately.

    #32 2 years ago
    Quoted from djreddog:

    After some thoughtful thinking I'm reconsidering my stance on ordering a day one launch of Aerosmith. I've pulled back my deposit. Maybe I'll wait for the Allentown show in May and purchase one at that time if all the kinks are worked out by then. Thanks for all the feedback.

    Good choice . No need to order early on any game , make sure you really like the game and will be completely happy with your purchase and then buy it at that point .Plenty of these will be available at any point in time , you will not miss out on anything by not ordering early .

    #33 2 years ago

    "rolling the dice" on an >5,000 purchase is not a good option unless you are a gambler. Patience is a virtue. Would much rather see posts of you enjoying a solid game than posts about playfield issues etc...

    Quoted from djreddog:

    After some thoughtful thinking I'm reconsidering my stance on ordering a day one launch of Aerosmith. I've pulled back my deposit. Maybe I'll wait for the Allentown show in May and purchase one at that time if all the kinks are worked out by then. Thanks for all the feedback.

    #34 2 years ago
    Quoted from djreddog:

    After some thoughtful thinking I'm reconsidering my stance on ordering a day one launch of Aerosmith. I've pulled back my deposit. Maybe I'll wait for the Allentown show in May and purchase one at that time if all the kinks are worked out by then. Thanks for all the feedback.

    Ultimately that's going to be a good move especially with a non-limited model like a pro or premium, save yourself all the initial worry that comes with rolling the dice at present with Stern.

    In the mean time use the money to buy a tried and tested game and as soon as your confident Stern QC issues are sorted, move it on to fund your Aerosmith, win, win

    #35 2 years ago

    Maybe throw in some higher quality balls but that's it. Just bang on it and enjoy. It's way too stressful to try and keep it perfect forever. Sometimes there are little tweaks or fixes that help gameplay but you won't know that until the game starts getting out.

    #36 2 years ago

    Open box, bolt on legs, play

    #37 2 years ago

    Smart to wait it is unfortunate that stern is having these issues, they don't seem to be addressing them very well either. I want a NIB too but will probably buy something other than a stern because of all the QC issues. It seems they are cranking out these games too quickly without solid code and problems galore.

    #38 2 years ago

    Just an opinion. Never buy a NIB stern. Wait 6 months and buy used.

    #39 2 years ago

    Don't do it. Batman66 is a nightmare and of poor quality. The spike system is a mess. The game just feels cheap. Parts are falling off, boards fail and playfield s are cheap. The magnets even dimple. Omg. I could cry. For 10K it's a real bummer.

    #40 2 years ago

    So much negativity about buying a pinball. This is a pinball forum!

    Apart from some of the good advice in this thread, there is a lot saying buy HUO and wait. Hmm where do you think the HUO pins come from?

    I'm not defending Stern as I'm aware of their quality issues. Sucks but I want to play new pins. Yes there is an extra cost now for Stern NIB so like everyone I would have liked to see quality improve with this.

    I took the punt and brought a BM66, now for that decision you get shit canned. A couple of years ago it would have been, cool and congrats.

    I'm in the hobby for fun! Stay positive my fellow Pinsider's.

    #41 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinball_Freak:

    So much negativity about buying a pinball. This is a pinball forum!
    Apart from some of the good advice in this thread, there is a lot saying buy HUO and wait. Hmm where do you think the HUO pins come from?

    I think it's more an issue of letting others take the risk in an era where Stern's corner cutting and QA finally seem to have hit a wall. If you wait and buy HUO, you'll be aware of any problems that have shown up and be able to buy machines with proven records for durability and complete code.

    #42 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinball_Freak:

    Hmm where do you think the HUO pins come from?

    Plenty of sources for assistance.
    Here are a few other sources I have bought true "HUO" (or very close equivalency) machines in the past 30 years other than private owners from collectors:

    - Operators that buy more than one game in volume, and place them in their home
    - Operators that buy more than one game in volume, and keep them in their warehouse NIB for years
    - Distributors that buy a game for display for operator sales
    - Distributors that buy a game for personal use
    - Dealers that buy a game for display for home use sales
    - Dealers that buy a game for their personal use
    - Dealers that sell display games to employees
    - Designer's private games
    - Games given to manufacturer employees as gifts and later resold
    - Manufacturer samples never placed on routes and sold directly to collectors
    - Manufacturer close out games
    - Games that have been forgotten in "time travel" warehouses or on resold property
    - Games that had "infant mortality syndrome" after being placed on a route, and electronics failing, and never repaired

    I can give title examples and circumstances of every single category, if someone is truly interested.

    The games do not always come from collector's homes exclusively.
    This is something that has only really begin to change in the past 10-15 years.

    The home market is not the only "savior of pinball".
    When the economy sometimes went south, operators picked up the pieces.
    However, this is no longer entirely the case, but the games remain in the all sorts of opportune locations.

    People just have to expand their horizons of thought, and stop believing that the only way to find a high quality title is through home use, not that this direction is a poor choice.

    Some operators still take better care of their machines than home owners, have much more experience, and understand why they should. The reason is direct, resale value, if there is insufficient income being made on a route.

    #43 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinball_Freak:

    So much negativity about buying a pinball. This is a pinball forum!

    Apart from some of the good advice in this thread, there is a lot saying buy HUO and wait. Hmm where do you think the HUO pins come from?

    I'm not defending Stern as I'm aware of their quality issues. Sucks but I want to play new pins. Yes there is an extra cost now for Stern NIB so like everyone I would have liked to see quality improve with this.

    I took the punt and brought a BM66, now for that decision you get shit canned. A couple of years ago it would have been, cool and congrats.

    I'm in the hobby for fun! Stay positive my fellow Pinsider's.

    sorry you look at it all as negativity. I look at the current culture shift as a positive. As a community we really should be doing our due diligence in warning new members about the MANY issues Stern is recently having.

    It is also about time people start holding the manufacturer accountable rather than supporting them.

    As far as you getting shit canned, yeah it sucks you feel that way but I will tell my friends to their face when I think they do something dumb. Spending 15k (or even 10k for the non-LE) on a NIB Stern is a very dumb thing to do. You are buying a product with poor code, expected issues in manufacture, likely quality problems, and poor communication from the maker. Dont do dumb things and then expect everyone to give you a high five around here. Most of us are in the hobby for fun, but we also see our friends doing dumb things to support a manufactuer that continually cuts costs and the product is going down hill. We want to support Stern, but find it hard when others are telling them with "take my money' actions for an inferior product.

    #44 2 years ago
    Quoted from djreddog:

    After some thoughtful thinking I'm reconsidering my stance on ordering a day one launch of Aerosmith. I've pulled back my deposit. Maybe I'll wait for the Allentown show in May and purchase one at that time if all the kinks are worked out by then. Thanks for all the feedback.

    really glad to see you have made a smart decision! Based on the # of thumbs up, other agree.

    Virtual high five buddy!

    #45 2 years ago

    Question for the masses, if I were to wait until the Allentown show and purchase one, would tax be applied? I'm assuming yes, but not sure how the show operates.

    #46 2 years ago
    Quoted from djreddog:

    Question for the masses, if I were to wait until the Allentown show and purchase one, would tax be applied? I'm assuming yes, but not sure how the show operates.

    depends on whom you buy from.

    A retailer in the state and yes you would probably be expected to pay taxes *(leagally).
    Reality is it is very unlikely you will have to pay any taxes.

    #47 2 years ago

    As you are buying a Pro and not an LE my advice would be to hang fire. Let Stern nail the playfield issues first. There is no immediate rush as the Pro will be for sale for the next 2-3 years.

    #48 2 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    The best advice to any new NIB buyer is quite simple.
    A person should wait until a game is actually released to allow you evaluate the product, even if through electronic social mediums, if a game is not able to be tested in person.
    There are simply so many reasons for this advice, and I will only share a few key aspects.
    If a person can afford a NIB game, they can afford to travel to test play a game for a single weekend.
    Did enthusiasts know you can contact Stern and ASK where they will be planning to test play games on location?
    Go to Las Vegas for a weekend, as every single new Stern game shows up in New York-New York casino within a month of production.
    You pre-purchased a game that is still in development, and is the #1 mistake of new buyers.
    There should be no rush to buy a product in this industry.
    There really is no significant advantage, regardless of what manufacturers try to tell pinball enthusiasts.
    This is simply marketing.
    If a person wants to place a refundable deposit, that should be the limit of the decision.
    If the game is successful, it will be available for years after it is produced, either new or used in HUO condition now based on the market.
    This includes LEs.
    This is not a wood rail pitch and bat collectible baseball machine made in the 1950s.
    This is the not pre-1999 when games were not as readily available in the private consumer market.
    If I want a game, I can normally find a superb+ example of any machine title within three months unless it is truly rare either due to extremely low production, sample, or prototype status.
    Even then, based on resources, I can normally find an example within a year or less.
    Anybody that says "this is impossible", feel free to talk to me, and ask for a game they want.
    However, be prepared to pay for a quality example, and not be thrifty, if they want a nice example.
    You cannot pry a rare machine out of collector hands for pennies, sometimes not even for money, but rather in parts such as playfields, backglasses, and assemblies.
    That really is the source of enjoyment for most collectors after the first 5-10 years of collecting anyway.
    Any game produced in the past 15 years, does not qualify at all, unless you believe that a BM66 SLE will never be available on the open market, which will occur as well, most likely in less than 6 months, and probably will show up here, after the new owner gets tired of their toy.
    Focusing on protecting something that has not been evaluated is not particularly helpful, as you do not know what needs to protected in the first place.
    This is like protecting the "Invisible Wonder Woman" airplane leather cockpit seats with Armor All.
    I can estimate concepts of problem areas noted on playfield design already, but photos are like game flyers, features actually do CHANGE.
    There are plenty of basic maintenance areas already noted, but not a single one are game specific.
    The decision to buy early is made hundreds of new times a year, based on instant gratification concept, and it seems that many must make this fundamental error at least once in this hobby before they learn the lesson.
    That is of course, unless there is no concern regarding disposable income.
    It really is not about the money itself, but more about what a buyer is receiving FOR THEIR MONEY?
    What basic pinball feature will Stern strip out of Aerosmith from their previous title?
    It has happened to every single game produced since 2012 starting after Star Trek.
    Look closely at the features breakdown sheets of all their games, and see the changes.
    Learn and prepare to be surprised.
    This excludes any additional considerations of Stern's quality control production, code completion, or production delays.
    I have no doubts that Stern's latest reveal with actually built and shipped in a relatively timely fashion, unlike all other manufacturers, but technical issues are generally discovered after a game has shipped.
    You can almost guarantee that the code with be at most 80% complete at best case on shipping release.
    The days of "flipping power" to sell a game for a minimal loss if you do not like the game, it has problems, or has design flaws are coming to a slow close.
    There are many collectors that wished they listened this advice when they bought games like KISS, WOF, WWE, 24, Shrek, Avatar, etc.
    For every "hit" there is at least one bomb, regardless of quality of artwork.
    Sometimes there are 2-3 in a row before they have a "winner".
    "You can expend as much effort as you want protecting a problem child, but the child is still a problem without corrective action."
    - TBK
    Nobody is punishing Stern for their mistakes, people keep readily accepting certain issues as "normal business industry challenges" or out of nominal ignorance.
    Some problems definitely are challenges, but some are simply excuses for cost cutting unbeknownst to new enthusiasts.

    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    Plenty of sources for assistance.
    Here are a few other sources I have bought true "HUO" (or very close equivalency) machines in the past 30 years other than private owners from collectors:
    - Operators that buy more than one game in volume, and place them in their home
    - Operators that buy more than one game in volume, and keep them in their warehouse NIB for years
    - Distributors that buy a game for display for operator sales
    - Distributors that buy a game for personal use
    - Dealers that buy a game for display for home use sales
    - Dealers that buy a game for their personal use
    - Dealers that sell display games to employees
    - Designer's private games
    - Games given to manufacturer employees as gifts and later resold
    - Manufacturer samples never placed on routes and sold directly to collectors
    - Manufacturer close out games
    - Games that have been forgotten in "time travel" warehouses or on resold property
    - Games that had "infant mortality syndrome" after being placed on a route, and electronics failing, and never repaired
    I can give title examples and circumstances of every single category, if someone is truly interested.
    The games do not always come from collector's homes exclusively.
    This is something that has only really begin to change in the past 10-15 years.
    The home market is not the only "savior of pinball".
    When the economy sometimes went south, operators picked up the pieces.
    However, this is no longer entirely the case, but the games remain in the all sorts of opportune locations.
    People just have to expand their horizons of thought, and stop believing that the only way to find a high quality title is through home use, not that this direction is a poor choice.
    Some operators still take better care of their machines than home owners, have much more experience, and understand why they should. The reason is direct, resale value, if there is insufficient income being made on a route.

    Damn... Good info with many angles. This guy had to have been prior military. Would have liked to have heard his task/condition/standard, Sitrep, Op order or Frag.
    I guess I'll standfast on a NIB and buy used. Not too impressed with the color right now.

    #49 2 years ago

    Just an additional thought for enthusiasts.

    If buyers continue to support "jumped" increased prices of NIB games, they are promoting continued market inflation. You cannot send any message to manufacturers to have pinball remain affordable, if you accept what they are doing, particularly based on the features that are being provided, in some cases. The value is simply not equitable, if you conduct a comparison to games made more than 20 years ago. Prices just continue to increase with no definate end point.

    The side effect is an increased used market, and the inability for future owners to buy pinball ("new" games, not necessarily games made more than 20 years ago). Charging 2-3x production costs for machines is unecessary.

    Boutique production numbers do not promote industry growth, volume sales are the key to long term health. Once prices reach a certain point in comparison to the economy (we are close to the limit of viability) the number of manufacturers decrease and close.

    Operators in the 90s put their foot down, manufacturers refused to budge with increased pricing of $250-400/year (which did not match economy inflation, material, or labor costs) which is identical to the present circumstances , and was one (but not the exclusive reason) why the market failed eventually from the standpoint of sales. There were other important contributing factors that accelerated problems and also led the way, but increased pricing was significant.

    #50 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinball_Freak:

    So much negativity about buying a pinball. This is a pinball forum!
    Apart from some of the good advice in this thread, there is a lot saying buy HUO and wait. Hmm where do you think the HUO pins come from?
    I'm not defending Stern as I'm aware of their quality issues. Sucks but I want to play new pins. Yes there is an extra cost now for Stern NIB so like everyone I would have liked to see quality improve with this.
    I took the punt and brought a BM66, now for that decision you get shit canned. A couple of years ago it would have been, cool and congrats.
    I'm in the hobby for fun! Stay positive my fellow Pinsider's.

    Did you buy a Jeep as well

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