First Playfield Swap - Medusa


By StratDoc

1 month ago


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  • Latest reply 44 minutes ago by StratDoc
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There are 125 posts in topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 26 days ago

The built in test modes are your friend.

Run the solenoid test mode and note down any coils not activating or activating at the wrong time. Only then can we build a map of what's logically going wrong.

When you have switch issues, you need to make sure you're starting from a blank canvas with switch test mode reporting "0" closed switches. As above, if a switch is being reported as closed but it isn't, if that switch has a capacitor then temporarily clip one of the capacitor leads.

Once you get "0" closed switches, begin activating them starting from the highest number switch working your way down as per the switch numbers listed in the manual. It's important you do it in highest to lowest order on these old Ballys/Sterns because switch test mode only reports the lowest number switch it finds as closed even when there are many closed switches.

If a switch reports the wrong number and you have drop targets down, raise all the drop targets, and drop one target at a time to see which drop target is affecting the wrong number switch being reported. That drop target may have a shorted or backwards soldered diode on it.

#52 26 days ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

the first picture looks like a toddler soldered that diode. I'd redo that first and make sure you have nice connections. If there are other solder jobs that look like that, you might have splatter in places that is arching on you.

Yeah, practice for 15 minutes on some old parts NOT in the machine.

You got to have solid solder joints in a high vibration location like a pinball machine.

#53 26 days ago

Roger on the solder joints. I will recheck throughout the PF.

Here are the switch issues found running through the switches sequentially in diagnostic mode. The problems are with the rear round targets.

- Switch 17 is completely missing - someone removed the switch in the cabinet
- Switch 43 registers as 27
- Switch 45 registers as 30
- Switch 47 registers as 29

Here are the solenoid issues

- solenoid 1 appears to activate solenoid 17. The knocker does not activate.

#54 25 days ago

Got up early this morning and double checked the diode orientation and wiring of the top of PF round targets. All are wired correctly and diodes are installed correctly. The targets are new so the diodes are okay.

That leaves either the MPU or the connection to the MPU? I swapped U10 and U11 on the MPU board with no change.? I have not yet checked continuity from the connection to the targets. Is there anything else I should be looking for?

I have not had a chance to look at the solenoid issue of solenoid 1 activating solenoid 17.

#55 25 days ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

solenoid 1 appears to activate solenoid 17. The knocker does not activate.

The Knocker (#1) and Open Zipper Flipper (#17) solenoids are driven by the same wire from the SDB, but are differentiated by the solenoid expander.
Both of these solenoids must be the three lug variety and wired as follows:

Knocker:
- Grey-Red wire on centre lug,
- Orange-Green wire on the end lug with non-banded side of other diode
Open Zipper Flipper: (this is the small coil on the zipper flipper assembly)
- Brown-Orange wire on centre lug,
- Orange-Green wire on the end lug with non-banded side of other diode

Quoted from StratDoc:

- Switch 17 is completely missing - someone removed the switch in the cabinet

No Shield of God button next to the right flipper button? That sucks..

Quoted from StratDoc:

- Switch 43 registers as 27
- Switch 45 registers as 30
- Switch 47 registers as 29

Looks to me like you might have those rear standup targets and rear drop target wires crossed over.
Confirm the following wires:

Left rear standup target:
- White-Yellow
- Brown
Middle rear standup target:
- White-Yellow
- White-Brown
Right rear standup target:
- White-Yellow
- White-Orange

Rear Drop Target #2 (2nd from left):
- Orange-Blue
- Brown-White
Rear Drop Target #4 (middle):
- Orange-Blue
- Brown
Rear Drop Target #6 (2nd from right):
- Orange-Blue
- White-Orange

#56 24 days ago

Take a look at theses photos. The first is a leaf switch which I wired. The second is the wiring of the three standup targets on the left side which I never disconnected. Shouldn't they both be wired the same way? I think I am going stir crazy looking at this. image (resized).jpegimage (resized).jpeg

#57 24 days ago

Here is another pic that is not my wiring - never disconnected that appears to have a diode installed the wrong way.
I think I need a leaf switch wiring tutorial - ugh.

image (resized).jpeg

#58 24 days ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

Here is another pic that is not my wiring - never disconnected that appears to have a diode installed the wrong way.

I was about to agree with you on that until I checked my machine and it's the same. Electrically it's functionally equivalent but wired in a roundabout way that makes it look odd in comparison to how most other switches are wired and doesn't purely match the schematic.
Each switch has a "strobe" signal wire and a "return" signal wire. Most switches have the strobe signal soldered on the side of the assembly with the non-banded side of the diode. On this switch Bally has soldered the wires backwards and flipped the diode accordingly.

It looks like all four gate switches are wired backwards with the white-yellow strobe wire on the tip instead of the side. Not sure if there's a good reason behind it. It's certainly easy to get confused by this. Makes me want to rewire them on my machine so they look right.

Got any pictures of those three rear standup target and rear drop target switch wirings?

Do you understand how to read wire colors on the wiring diagrams/schematics?

#59 24 days ago

Here are pics of the round and drop target switches. I have also included a switch of the target I purchased from Marco. Someone added additional paperboard insulation at some point between the upper and bottom switches. When the round targets are attached it seems to do the trick insulating the drop target switches from the round target switches. IMG_3503 (resized).JPGIMG_3504 (resized).JPGIMG_3505 (resized).JPGIMG_3506 (resized).JPG detail (resized).jpg

#60 24 days ago

Any chance you can repost those pictures in high resolution - it would really help if I could zoom in.

By the way, did you know those three standup targets behind the rear drop targets are a special type with transparent faces? Notice those targets have lamps directly behind them?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-transparent-targets-what-machines-used-them/page/3#post-2551919

#61 24 days ago

These should be higher resolution. I was unaware about the transparent drops. The ones on the old pf were banged up and not transparent but someone could have swapped them. If I can get this pin going I will change them out for sure.

IMG_3506 (resized).JPGIMG_3504 (resized).JPGIMG_3503 (resized).JPGIMG_3505 (resized).JPG

#62 24 days ago

I can't see any errors in the wiring.

Lets clarify the switch behavior in switch test mode. Please answer all six points.

1. With all drop targets raised and the ball removed from the outhole you get "0" closed switches right?
2. Drop the leftmost upper drop target. What number appears as closed?
3. With the leftmost drop target still down, drop the second left upper drop target. What number appears as closed?
4. With the two leftmost upper drop targets still down, drop the third left upper drop target. What number appears as closed?
5. Raise the two leftmost upper drop targets, leave the third left upper drop target down. What number appears as closed?
6. Since the third left drop target is still down, if it now reports the correct number, find out which of the two leftmost drop targets causes that third target to misreport.

If you have a logic probe, probe the common upper drop targets strobe wire (orange-blue) and also the common standup target strobe wire (white-yellow). Does the probe show similar indications on both wires?

#63 23 days ago

1) it now shows switch 43 stuck. Prior to removing the pf to double check wiring of drops and round targets showed "0". The thing has gremlins. All other questions just show 43 stuck.

ugh!

#64 23 days ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

it now shows switch 43 stuck.

And is switch #43 (2nd rightmost rear drop target) closed?

Have you tested the diodes on those rear drop targets and three standup targets behind those rear drops?

#65 22 days ago

If I am reading the schematic correctly 43 is the right round target. The diode should be good since it is a new target that came with a diode but I will double check when I get home this evening.

#66 22 days ago

All the diodes are okay. Switch 43 is the top right round target and still registers closed although it is not.

Anither oddity is that I can cause some of the switches to activate by touching the banded side of the diode and while my other hand is on any piece of the metal attached to the cabinet.

This thing is killing me.

#67 22 days ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

Anither oddity is that I can cause some of the switches to activate by touching the banded side of the diode and while my other hand is on any piece of the metal attached to the cabinet.

This will happen on any machine because you are completing a circuit path through your body. The sweatier your hand, the more sensitive it will be.

Quoted from StratDoc:

If I am reading the schematic correctly 43 is the right round target.

Nope, switch #43 is the second drop target from the right on the rear bank.
.
MedusaDropTargetSwitch.jpg
MedusaSwitches.jpg

#68 22 days ago

Okay, I am idiot. Thank you for being patience with me.

Switch test now shows "0". I went back through the sequential switch test one more time. I am showing no bad switches or misregistering switches. I am not sure why the switch test reported the previous anomaly about misregistering switches but am attributing it to user error - my mistake.

To recap where I think I am with this pin.

1) When the bottom “D” “C” two drops on the right side are down - it cannot be just one down - the leaf switch 18 activate the shield of the gods and the saucer eject. The top two targets down does not cause the problem. All four down the problem persists.

2) first three right drop targets down D,C,B causes switch 34 to activate bottom right sling switch 35. All four drops down switch 34 activates left sling switch 36.

3) Four right drops do not reset when all down

4) top drops do not reset when all down

5) the four gates do not register in game.

There may be other issues as well but these are the most obvious.

A big thank you for all of your help and patience. I bit off more than I can chew with this one but with your help I think I can get it going. It is going to look fantastic.

#69 22 days ago

A quick update on the post above.

I went back and checked the diodes on all switches for the four left drop targets. The diode on drop target C showed bad. I replaced it with a new diode and it too shows bad. A short somewhere with that switch? The switch is new so I don't think it is the problem.

#70 22 days ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

Switch test now shows "0". I went back through the sequential switch test one more time. I am showing no bad switches or misregistering switches.

Does this mean you went through and activated each single switch and they all registered correctly according to the switch numbers in the manual?
If you did test every switch, did you leave drop targets down or raise them after each drop target test? In your case it's best to leave them down as you're testing. As previously mentioned you must test from highest number switch and work your way down the list.

Quoted from StratDoc:

I replaced it with a new diode and it too shows bad.

When you're checking the diodes on the drop targets, are you measuring the diode with the drop target down or up? Make sure they're up when you're measuring so the switch is open and no other circuitry in the matrix can affect the diode you're testing.

Does this problem still occur if you manually raise all rear drop targets?
What about the switch on the zipper flipper mechanism - does it being closed help induce the problem?

Quoted from StratDoc:

A short somewhere with that switch?

Post a clear picture of the switch. I've seen switches from factory incorrectly put together so it's not inconceivable.

By the way, check the coin switches on the coin door - there's been many switch problems posted around here that were caused by coin switches wired wrong or stuck.

#71 21 days ago

1) Yes, it went through every switch highest from lowest. This time I left the drops down as I went through the test. All switches register correctly.

2) Measuring the diode with the 4 drop targets up. The zipper flipper switch does not affect the problem. Problem persists with all the rear drop targets raised.

3) I coin door switches register correctly and are not stuck.
IMG_3511 (1) (resized).JPGIMG_3510 (resized).JPGIMG_3509 (resized).JPGIMG_3508 (resized).JPG

#72 21 days ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

1) Yes, it went through every switch highest from lowest. This time I left the drops down as I went through the test. All switches register correctly.

Good.

Quoted from StratDoc:

The diode on drop target C showed bad. I replaced it with a new diode and it too shows bad.

Revisiting this, your next step is to isolate that diode. Unsolder one leg of the diode and bend the leg out so it's not touching anything. Measure the diode with your meter in both directions.
If is measures shorted then replace it again.
If it tests ok, then measure across the two lugs on the switch that the diode connect to. If the two lugs measure shorted then pull the switch out and inspect why the lugs are shorted - it may be that the lug leafs were incorrectly installed and is missing a separator.

#73 20 days ago

Finally!!!! It was the darn switch. It had a separator out of place. The following switch issues resolved

1)When the bottom “D” “C” two drops on the right side are down - it cannot be just one down - the leaf switch 18 activate the shield of the gods and the
saucer eject. The top two targets down does not cause the problem. All four down the problem persists.

2) first three right drop targets down D,C,B causes switch 34 to activate bottom right sling switch 35. All four drops down switch 34 activates left sling switch
36.

The four drop targets and the top targets will still not reset. Touching a ground wire to Q1 on the SDB does not cause the target solenoid to fire. The same test does cause the zipper flipper coil to fire.

I am still having issues with the knocker activating the zipper flipper solenoid. When the game starts, three drop targets are up at the top - thought it was only supposed to be the center one.

Progress!

#74 20 days ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

Finally!!!! It was the darn switch. It had a separator out of place.

I had this exact problem on a Fathom I worked on a few months ago - a drop target switch had the separator out of place and the diode appeared shorted. Did your switch look like it came from factory like this?

Quoted from StratDoc:

I am still having issues with the knocker activating the zipper flipper solenoid.

See post #55 above.

Quoted from StratDoc:

When the game starts, three drop targets are up at the top - thought it was only supposed to be the center one.

When starting a game, only the single middle top target should remain up. I don't see any options in the manual to change this.
Do the top targets all drop properly one by one in sequence during solenoid test mode?

#75 20 days ago

Yes, it looks like it came that way from the factory. They look new although I did not install them.

I will check post #55.

The drops do not drop in sequence during the solenoid test. Top targets 2, 4, 6 do not activate/drop.

Right four targets do not activate at all during solenoid test.

#76 20 days ago

The problem is related to your solenoid expander board. Does the lamp next to it flash during lamp test mode?

#77 20 days ago

Yes, it flashes during lamp test diagnostics.

#78 20 days ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

Yes, it flashes during lamp test diagnostics.

Ok, so do you hear the relay on the solenoid expander click, when that lamp switches on and off?
Take the small solenoid expander board out and check the soldering on its pin header - the soldering does fracture/crack over time on these boards. Resolder the header if needed.

#79 19 days ago

Clicks when the light flashes. Resoldered and still same problem. Four targets will not reset. Back targets if all down at start do not reset, four targets down at start also will not reset. If all back targets up at start drops all but 2,4,6.

#80 19 days ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

Clicks when the light flashes.

Ok, so grab your multimeter and set it on DC voltage. Connect the black meter lead to ground.

The Grey-Red wire from the solenoid expander powers the default solenoids. By default solenoids I mean solenoids that are powered when the solenoid expander is OFF. You should measure 43VDC at pin 7 of the solenoid expander connector and at any of the playfield solenoids that have a Grey-Red power wire.

Go into lamp test mode. When the lamp next to the solenoid expander flashes, the relay on the solenoid expander switches 43VDC from the Grey-Red wire over to the Brown-Orange wire which powers all the non-default (alternate) solenoids that have the Brown-Orange power wire. Check that pin 5 on the solenoid expander connector jumps to 43VDC when the lamp illuminates, and also check that power is reaching the Brown-Orange wire at those solenoids that are not working.
.
Medusa Solenoid Expander wiring

#81 19 days ago

I am not reading 43vdc for the grey/red connector at the expander board or at the coils on the pf. I do read 43vdc on the brown/orange connector on the expander board duing lamp test but not at the three coils - drop targets 2,4,6. Other coils connected with brown/orange read 43vdc.

#82 19 days ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

I am not reading 43vdc for the grey/red connector at the expander board or at the coils on the pf.

If you don't read 43VDC at the Grey-Red wire then the rear drop targets 1,3,5,7, saucer and both open/close zipper flipper coils wouldn't work. You probably didn't make proper contact with your meter probes when measuring since you've made no mention of these solenoids not working.

Quoted from StratDoc:

I do read 43vdc on the brown/orange connector on the expander board duing lamp test but not at the three coils - drop targets 2,4,6. Other coils connected with brown/orange read 43vdc.

Find the break in the daisy chain of that Brown-Orange wire between the working and non-working solenoids.

#83 19 days ago

It was missing the damn spring - amazing :party:! Now everything appears to reset at it should. Let me load up a game and post back if there are any additional issues.

Okay, registered a few credits and the four bank will not consistently reset. It has 43vdc at the coil. I touched a ground wire on Q1 and it did not fire. Replaced Q1 with a new transistor and still not working. The diode for Q1 tests okay. The U1 chip?

Two controlled lamps are out which is odd - all other lamps work. I replaced the sockets with no change. It is the shoot again lamp and the "200" under the eject saucer. The manual shows them wired green/orange to the shoot again and white/yellow to the"200". I also have a new alltek lamp board in - I had a spare and left it in while trouble shooting the swap.

#84 19 days ago

Another update.

I got the four drop targets working - There was a disconnected wire in the chain of orange/black wires.

FIXED - Poor MPU connection. Bottom left pop bumper will not fire. works in test diagnostic and words when ground to the transistor or coil. will not activate when the switch is closed.

The two controlled lamps mentioned above are still not working.

Progress!!!

#85 18 days ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

The two controlled lamps mentioned above are still not working.

What have you tried so far to diagnose this?

#86 18 days ago

Quench,

Nothing to this point other than changing the sockets. Headed out for travel with work and not back until Sunday - ugh. Will pick it back up next week.

Thank you for everything thus far!

#87 17 days ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

everything thus far

Great job on sticking this out and asking for ideas along the way... You'll get there!
-mof

#88 11 days ago

I am back at it - testing why the controlled lamps for "shoot again" an "200k saucer" don't light.

Quoted from StratDoc:

Quench,
Nothing to this point other than changing the sockets. Headed out for travel with work and not back until Sunday - ugh. Will pick it back up next week.
Thank you for everything thus far!

Here is what else I have done. I think it must be a transistor issue. Strange since it is a brand new Alltek lamp board, but I may have blown something troubleshooting other issues along the way.

1) lamp test mode - lamps do not light
2) voltages check fine to the lamps in question
3) continuity from lamp driver board to the lamps in question checks out okay
4) logic probe no pulse at the lamps
5) logic probe no pulse on J3 pin 15 and J3 pin 22

I have replaced the transistors on an alltek before by soldering the transistor on top of the "micro-transistor" on the board with no problems. Doesn't look pretty but does the trick.

#89 11 days ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

4) logic probe no pulse at the lamps
5) logic probe no pulse on J3 pin 15 and J3 pin 22

If you run a jumper wire from ground to any of these points, does either lamp illuminate?

From the Bally lamp driver board schematics:
SCR Q40 controls the Same Player Shoots Again lamp.
SCR Q51 controls the Saucer 200k lamp.

Note: the following is in reference to the Alltek lamp driver board only.

If you ground the top metal tab on either of these SCRs, the respective lamp should light. This only tests that wiring from the SCR through the J1/J2/J3 board connectors to the lamps are good or not. This does not test the SCRs.

If the above tests work, then you can manually test activate the SCRs.
Grab a jumper wire and connect/touch one end on test point TP3 of the lamp driver board.
For the smaller SCRs touch the other end of the wire on the RIGHT leg of SCR Q51 to switch it on.
For the larger SCRs touch the other end of the wire on the LEFT leg of SCR Q40 to switch it on.

#90 10 days ago

Grounded the corresponding SCR did not activate either lamp.

Manually testing the SCRs did not activate either lamp.

I also installed the old lamp driver board. Same two lamps are out on it as well. Otherwise it works as should.

#91 10 days ago

Looks like we missed the first basic test of ground testing the lamp sockets - have you done this yet?

#92 10 days ago

Yes, i did try grounding the sockets - ground wire touched to the base of the socket. It did not activate the lamps.

#93 10 days ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

ground wire touched to the base of the socket.

The base of the feature lamp sockets connected by the bare braid wire is 6.5V power, not ground - I hope you didn't blow the F1 fuse on the rectifier board.
You need to jumper the lamp socket lug with the colored wire coming from the lamp board to ground to test the lamp/socket.

#94 9 days ago

I touched to the colored wire - no blown fuses

The lamps do not light when grounded.

#95 9 days ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

I touched to the colored wire - no blown fuses

The lamps do not light when grounded.

You know what to do then
The fault is local to the lamp/socket.

#96 9 days ago

The lamp sockets are brand new which is odd - they also did not work prior to changing the sockets. I will go back and double check everything. This thing is close but minor problems keep popping up.

One more lamp issue. I have a handful of lamps that are dimly lit. If I ground them the become bright. The affected lamps are in the shooter lane - all lamps except for the bottom one. It also is the only lamp in the shooter lane that flashes during attract mode - the lamps in the middle of the playfield for the gorgon bonus. The bottom lamp is bright and flashes during attract mode the other lamps are dimly lit. I believe these are all driven by the auxiliary board. I do have the LED adapters installed on the on the auxiliary board.

#97 9 days ago

Sounds like the lamp power wire to your LED adapter boards on the Aux lamp board isn't hooked up properly.

#98 9 days ago

Okay. Is that the grey wire that connects to both adapter boards? I am using the alltek board and have it connected to the 5vdc supply on the cabinet/bg lights. The auxiliary adapter boards connect with a grey wire that is to be connected to "any unused connection" on the lamp driver board.

#99 9 days ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

The auxiliary adapter boards connect with a grey wire that is to be connected to "any unused connection" on the lamp driver board.

Sorry, this instruction doesn't ring any bells. The grey wire is supposed to hookup to the 6.5V feature lamp power braid on the back of the display/lamp door.

Best if you post some pics of these adapter boards and where the grey wires are connected.

#100 8 days ago

Replaced the sockets with new bayonet style sockets. No change on those two lamps. The lamp is getting voltage but will not come on when grounded. Also no pulse from the colored wire

I revisited the adapter board. I think I have it installed wrong and will fix tomorrow.

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