(Topic ID: 129968)

first pinball Williams Hot Line help

By jefwv

8 years ago


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#1 8 years ago

hello all, new to this site and need help with a 1966 Williams Hot Line. had this for a couple weeks and been through it over and over. The game is supposed to start general illumination with the press of the left flipper. unless i hold the flipper in it will go right back off and not engage the lock relay. i tested the relay with a 9v battery and it pulls in. while holding the flipper in the score motor spins continuously, it add credits, sometimes scores, relay bank engages a few relays and then resets them. like it is just cycling. coin door switches are not closed, checked the credit relays, score relays and switches etc.. i know it could be any number of things causing this, anyone suggest a good place to look? thanks

#2 8 years ago

Well, let's begin at the beginning.

The schematic is on line at IPDB.

When you press the left flipper, the following should happen:
1. The transformer energizes on the 120v side
2. The Lock relay pulls in via a flip/flop switch on the game over relay and the NC kick off switch
3. The Lock relay remains on via it's lock in switch and the NC kick off switch.
4. The transformer remains on via the switch in the lock relay.

So, if the lock relay never pulls in, check the kick off switch and the Game Over relay.
If the lock in relay pulls in, but lets go, check the lock in switch on the lock in relay ( R-B and B wires) and the switch on the lock in relay that has 110v !!!! running trough it. This will have the Red and Purple, probably plastic coated wires on it.

Regardless, the first part of your problem likely lies in the lock-in and game over relay.

Get that lock in relay to pull in and hold and we can move on from there.

#3 8 years ago

The game sounds like it currently not in "GAME OVER mode". It will never start properly unless it is in GAME OVER mode. Don't panic though, as you may be able to put it in game over mode manually.

Few things you need to know.

The game will not start without the following "states": all scores set to zero. all switches that score points need to be OPEN. game over relay on (indicated by bulb in the head. at least one credit on the game. Also, game must not be TILTED. Also, start button needs to be making contact.

When (and only when) all those things are true, the game will attempt to start by first confirming that: it has a credit, then that the GAME OVER relay is set properly, then that ALL the score wheels are all "zeros", and will then run the score motor one more cycle, and then fire the outhole coil, putting the ball into the shooter lane. Once that happens, the score motor will stop, and the game will be quiet and ready for play.

At what point does you game NOT do one of these things? Please report findings back here...

If the conditions above are not that way, you need to make them that way, to determine exactly why the game will not start. It's just that simple. Do NOT start adjusting things until you discover exactly WHAT step is not happening properly. Otherwise, you will be chasing your tail, potentially causing more stuff to not work properly.

Keep in mind that manually advancing these things will not "FIX YOUR GAME". It will simply give you hints as to why the game is not ENDING or STARTING properly. Once you discover why, you can hopefully fix the probelm.

#4 8 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

The game will not start without: all cores set to zero. all switches that score points need to be OPEN. game over relay on (indicated by bulb in the head. at least one credit on the game. Start button needs to work.
When (and only when) all those things are true, the game will attempt to start by confirming the cores are all zero, and will run the score motor and fire the outhouse coil, putting the ball into the shooter lane.

I believe the reset sequence is stuck at the lock in relay not pulling in/holding. The score reel resets are later in the sequence. These done via the score reel reset relay, which is actuated via the reset relay, which is actuated via a coin up or replay button. We are not that far yet, per the OP. The Game Over Relay needs to be on though, or we won't get the Lock Relay to pull in.

IIRC, you might be able to pull the PF and get the reset sequence figured out in a divide and conquer fashion. I do this with my Gottliebs. I actually have a Hot Line, but I don't remember for sure if that works in this machine. I think it does though.

#5 8 years ago

Right, it sounds like there could be more than one problem. I'm simply having him put the game into a state that would give some more hints/clues as to why it is not working properly.

The game over relay must be held in, so that the game knows that it "OVER" and ready to RESTART. I agree that it is the first thing for the OP to confirm the proper game operation. I did not list the items above in a perfect order, it was more of a general guide to EM troubleshooting.

#6 8 years ago

Thanks newmantjn, I checked the kick off switch and its ok. Can't find any playfield switches stuck. The Advance relay in the bottom of the cabinet locks in as soon as I touch the left flipper and stays on until I release the flipper. On the relay rail under the pf, #10 relay kicks in first then the Special relay along with #4 and #5, then the reset bar kicks them all off then does it all over again until I release the left flipper, then all power is lost. The Game Over relay never kicks in on the relay rail.
I got it to engage with the machine unplugged with a 9v battery. Also the lock relay in the bottom of the cabinet still doesn't engage. If i hit the left flipper repeatedly it will sometimes engage and release. Thanks again

#7 8 years ago

You need to discover why the #10 relay kicks, and what it is connected to on the PF and or HEAD, possibly even score motor.... Sounds like it is keeping the game from going into "game over" state or, it's "startup sequence".

Reset bar is trying to reset everything, but it sounds like it keeps kicking coil #10 before the game can go to "game over"-->"restart".

#8 8 years ago

So, is your game over relay pulling in? Is the flip/flop switch that pulls in your lock relay clean and well adjusted?

#9 8 years ago

Thanks guys, not real good at reading the schematics for relay 10. Game Over never pulls in. While holding in the left flipper while the score motor and everything else is cycling, I try to manually engage the Lock relay and it doesn't hold. Not familiar with the term flip/flop but the leaf switches seems to be clean and adjusted ok on the lock relay.

#10 8 years ago

Coil #10 is connected to the "advance unit", according to the schematics, wire color is Grey-Green. Check that wire first. Can you locate the "advance unit" and see that it is moving properly by manually advancing and retracting it???, confirm it's not stuck, and that the contacts are clean? Also look for a broken/touching wire, examining the entire advance unit. If it's dirty, clean it with Simple Green degreaser. That stuff is a godsend for EM repairs.

#11 8 years ago

Thanks snyper2099, I'll give it a going over and report back.

#12 8 years ago
Quoted from jefwv:

Game Over never pulls in.

You need to solve this. Game over relay pulling in is required to pull in the lock relay. This is where it all begins.

Quoted from jefwv:

While holding in the left flipper while the score motor and everything else is cycling

If you look at the schematic, you will see that the left flipper and the switch that energizes the primary windings on the transformer are redundant. If you get the lock relay to pull in, then the machine will act like it does when you hold in the flipper button. You will have more to work on, but this is the second step in the sequence, with the first being the game over relay needs to pull in.

Quoted from jefwv:

Not familiar with the term flip/flop

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair#Break-Make_aka_Form_C_switch
Make-break = flip/flop = form c All different words for an either or switch set. Either these two wires are connected or those two are.

If you are concerned about the advance unit, I would recommend unplugging the PF.

If push comes to shove, I can maybe takes some videos tonight of my machine booting up.

#13 8 years ago

Checked the Advance Unit and seems to work ok, no broken wires. There was a ground wire that was loose that was attached to the mounting bracket for the unit. The reset relay's return is a little slow in retracting.

I engaged the Game Over relay with machine unplugged. I plugged the machine in and powered the machine up. The game over relay stayed engaged for a few seconds and also the Lock Relay also pulled in at power up. After a few seconds the reset bar kicked out the game over relay and no power. I did this without having to hold in the left flipper.

I unplugged the pf and machine would not stay powered on unless I held down the left flipper (as always). No relays on the relay bar engaged nor did any bottom cabinet relays. Thanks

#14 8 years ago

Sorry about recommending you unplug the PF. I was going from memory, and I thought it would boot up that way. I removed my PF and it wouldn't start, then I noticed that the game over relay is on the PF, so .... duh.

Anyway, I made it up to you. I posted a couple of youtube videos that may help.

Game Play:

Inside the Game:

Start Up Sequence

Schematic Review of the Game Over Relay

Good Luck!!!

#15 8 years ago

Wow! Thanks so much for doing the vids! I'm thinking the Advance unit is screwy so i'm going to look that direction. Loved the game play too!

#16 8 years ago

I went over the Advance unit pretty good last night and its seems ok, maybe a little sluggish but it does advance. I cleaned the contacts on the advance unit also. Someone has marked its home position I rechecked zero position switches on credit unit and all score reels. Maybe the score motor is out of time?

#17 8 years ago

Is the game over relay pulling in? Yes or no. It is a simple circuit. You need to begin at the beginning.

#19 8 years ago

OK. Then you need to solve that part first.

Do you have a schematic? As I mentioned in my video, it is unfortunate, but the IPDB scan is broken up in exactly the area that we need. I can scan that for you tonight and get it to you if you need it, but I do describe what happens and show a picture of it in the video.

Generally:
The left flipper will momentarily power up the primary, 120v side of the transformer.
This, in turn powers up the secondary, 24v and 6v sides. I believe this is all working OK, as you would never get any action at all in the machine if it didn't.
Now you have 24v across the black and yellow lines. Somehow you need to connect the black to the yellow line, via the game over relay to pull it in. You need this to start a game.

There are three ways you can pop that relay electrically:
1. Via the ball counter when a game ends normally
2. Via the tilt switch when game is tilted (and it is, of course running a game at the time)
3. Via a make/break, form C, flip/flop (whatever you want to call it) on the lock relay.

Why it isn't pulling in? Possibilities include
1. Dirty, misadjusted switch in the lock relay (see 3 above)
2. Broken wires etc.
3. Bad coil
4. Some mechanical reason.

My money is on #1. But the others are possibilities as well.

One test you can do is to hold the left flipper button in and tilt the machine. See if the Game Over relay pulls in then. This is diagnostic only, but it would point you to 1 v 2,3,4 above.

Are you comfortable with using a DMD?

Note, you could be on a long hunt here. You will fix one thing, then the next thing needs to be fixed. It is like the way a computer boots up. You need to go through a sequence.

#20 8 years ago

You do realize that: the game over relay will never pull in, unless the game thinks that it is in a "game over state". Correct? Can you manually advance the "ball advance unit" in order to "end game" (go past ball 5).

99% of the time, the GO relay will activate and hold the moment you apply power to the game, and then press left button (or press start) on games before ~1974 (From an OFF state). As newmantjn stated, you need to determine why that is not happeneing.

If you can manually close the game over gate (there is typically a tab), then you at least know that it can operate physically. The fact that it will not electrically operate(close), could be caused by a few different things. Broken wire(s), misadjusted switch(s), dirty contact(s), ect.

As stated above, the cause may also NOT be with the GO relay/switch itself. It may simply not be getting voltage, or a wire that it needs is not making contact on the other side.(score motor,ball in play assembly, ect.)... Do you know how to use a voltmeter? I would go through every assembly in the game with a very bright LED flashlight, to confirm that no wires have become disconnected. If you have done that, and are able to confirm voltage to the GO coil, you are probably going to be cleaning/adjusting the GO assembly. It could also be misadjusted to a state where the electrical pulse gets to it, but it is not strong enough to completely pull it shut.

I would also HIGHLY recommend cleaning the jones plugs for the play-field (and eventually all other ones in the game), since the GO relay is on the PF.

#21 8 years ago

Good news! I got the machine to work somewhat. It was indeed a lock relay switch out of adjustment. Brighter light and better glasses. Thanks guys!
Now working on the score reels not resetting, none of them. Doesn't even attempt to reset. Credits also wont reset or attempt. I have checked the zero and 9 position switches and seem to be adjusted ok.
Match Unit is slow to advance when working it manually.
Cleaned all the jones plugs.
While playing the game, anytime a point is scored, it adds a credit until it reaches 35 credits.
To get the game to start I have to manually run down each score reel and the credits to zero. Thanks again! Any further help would be appreciated!

#22 8 years ago
Quoted from jefwv:

Good news! I got the machine to work somewhat. It was indeed a lock relay switch out of adjustment. Brighter light and better glasses. Thanks guys!
Now working on the score reels not resetting, none of them. Doesn't even attempt to reset. Credits also wont reset or attempt. I have checked the zero and 9 position switches and seem to be adjusted ok.
Match Unit is slow to advance when working it manually.
Cleaned all the jones plugs.
While playing the game, anytime a point is scored, it adds a credit until it reaches 35 credits.
To get the game to start I have to manually run down each score reel and the credits to zero. Thanks again! Any further help would be appreciated!

On the score reels not resetting, there's a score reset relay that has to be pulled in. There are two switches involved in getting the score reset relay activated. A normally open impulse A motor switch and a normally open reset relay switch. The reset relay is pulled in via the a make/break on the lock relay and a a n/o on the coin relay. The zero position switch on the reels has to be closed. Check all those. The impulse motor A will be pulsed five times by the impulse cam, which in turn will pulse the score reel reset relay until the zero position switch on each drum opens.

The replay unit step up is powered by impulse cam A (normally open) and switches on the 10 cent and 25 cent relays. Again, check the switches.

The bane of EMs is switches that appear to be open but aren't for one reason or another (bent solder tabs, incorrectly positioned stiffeners, etc) and switches that appear to be making, but in reality aren't.

#23 8 years ago

I got the score reels to reset all except for the 1000-9000 reel (the highest amount). It was a switch on the score motor, the only one I have touched because it looked funny. The coil checks out ok and it will increment in game play. It doesn't have as many switches on it only 2. I guess because it doesn't have to tell the next reel anything. When at zero both switches are open. As soon as it advances to 1 they both close.

Still have issue with it adding credits randomly on start of new game and while points are being scored. Credits won't decrement. Should the credits decrement all at once or step down one at a time. Thanks

#24 8 years ago
Quoted from jefwv:

Credits won't decrement.

The same switch set that controls the game counter, the ball unit reset and the advance unit reset also controls the credit decrement, so:
IF those are working correctly
THEN
The credit should decrement to
UNLESS
The unit is physically prevented from doing so.
OR
(More likely) a prior owner hacked it to prevent this by cutting a wire or disconnecting something. You'll have to study the unit and compare to pictures in the pinrepair guide etc.

Quoted from jefwv:

Still have issue with it adding credits randomly on start of new game and while points are being scored.

If this truely is random, then look for switches that are adjusted "correctly", yet are too close and make contact on vibration. One way to do this is via the "big blue spark". Turn the lights out and see what sparks right when this happens. Bang you hand on the table and see where you have to hit to get a credit is another method. My preferred method would be to look at the schematic and narrow down the culprits to one or two, then inspect those very closely. The likely culprits reside in the 10 and 25 cent relay. The switches involved have a green/white wire on one blade and a grey wire on the other. The other switch involved in that circuit is the impulse switch. You could check that too for completeness, but given the logic, I don't see it as a likely culprit.

#25 8 years ago

Loving this thread! Sure it will come in handy when I reassemble Heat Wave.

#26 8 years ago

After a bunch of switch cleaning and adjustments and reflowing solder, the game is working much better. Thanks for all the help!

I have a 100-900 score reel not working. It's relay in the backbox is engaged as soon as I start a game, which pulls in the solenoid plunger on the reel and won't release. It seems I would have a pf switch stuck closed that is worth 100 points. I have check every pf switch several times and can't find one.

If I manually work that reel when power is off, it will reset when a new game is started. But then the above occurs. I have checked the switches on the reel and the relay switches and wiring in the backbox. Drivin me nuts!

A less severe problem, the 25 cent coin door switch will not add a credit when engaged, although it will make the score motor run a cycle.
The 10 cent switch works. I checked the switches on each 10 cent and 25 cent relays and all are good. Installed nos coils for each.
At one time the 25 cent switch did add a credit but now doesn't.

Another problem is on starting a new game, it goes to Ball 1 then immediately to Ball 2 before I can even shoot the ball. Thanks for any suggestions!

#27 8 years ago
Quoted from jefwv:

After a bunch of switch cleaning and adjustments and reflowing solder, the game is working much better. Thanks for all the help!
I have a 100-900 score reel not working. It's relay in the backbox is engaged as soon as I start a game, which pulls in the solenoid plunger on the reel and won't release. It seems I would have a pf switch stuck closed that is worth 100 points. I have check every pf switch several times and can't find one.
If I manually work that reel when power is off, it will reset when a new game is started. But then the above occurs. I have checked the switches on the reel and the relay switches and wiring in the backbox. Drivin me nuts!
A less severe problem, the 25 cent coin door switch will not add a credit when engaged, although it will make the score motor run a cycle.
The 10 cent switch works. I checked the switches on each 10 cent and 25 cent relays and all are good. Installed nos coils for each.
At one time the 25 cent switch did add a credit but now doesn't.
Another problem is on starting a new game, it goes to Ball 1 then immediately to Ball 2 before I can even shoot the ball. Thanks for any suggestions!

If you can't stop the coil from engaging, it could be burt up. With the game OFF, can you test it with a multimeter and post what ohms it reads across the lugs? If it's not burnt up, you have a switch touching on the play field. Keep in mind that it does not have to be visual from the top side of the play field to be in a stuck switch state. The UNDERSIDE can also have two switch tabs touching, or a wire bent so that two lugs are touching on a 100PT switch. Also, your "100PT. coil" in the head could have a problem as well, or be toast.

#28 8 years ago

Thanks, I'll check the ohms and post back. I have checked the pf top and bottom several times and can't find a thing. At game start there are only 2 or 4 switches that could register 100.
Also the 100 point relay in the head tells the coil on the 100 point reel to engage, right? Thats why I don't think its the coil on the reel. It's just doing what it's told.
Thanks

#29 8 years ago

With the game off, I would test for continuity on those 4 POSSIBLE SWITCHES, then. It may not be shorted at the switch itself, could be in a jones plug, score motor connection, ect.

I am not familiar enough with single player Willaims EM's to know if they used two separate coils to drive the point reels for the player.

#30 8 years ago

Hi jefwv
I can "construct" several situations so the 100-Point-Relay stucks.
"Hot Line" -> http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1245 -> down to schema -> http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1245/Hot_Line_Schematic.pdf -> "End of Page-2 and Beginning of Page-3" (of course there had to bee 2 pages involved...)
I made myself a BMP - using the "PrintScreen-Button" (PrtSC) -> insert that into my BMP - "The end of page-2". I did the same with "Beginning of Page-3". Well, NOW (new server on pinside) I can NOT post PDF / JPG / BMP. And: I do not want to post (in pinside) a BMP as big as 3 MB. If You send me a personal message with your (real / home) EMail-adress: I will mail this (3MB) BMP to You.

The 100-Point-Relay can be stucked, if: the "Self Hold Switch" on the 100-Point-Relay is "faulty-always-closed" AND the E.O.S-Switch (Score-Reel) (faulty) never opens: the "Self Hold Switch" is bent, the switch is closed - even when the Relay is inactive (pin turned off) - the plunger in the Score-Reel does not open its E.O.S-Switch at end of travel.

The 100-Point-Relay can be stucked, if the 9th-Position-Switch in the 10-Points-Score-Reel is faulty-closed and a switch on the 10-Points-Relay is faulty-closed (closed even when the 10 Point-Relay is not pulling). (((Think of some kind of 70 -> 80 -> 90 -> 100 Points)))

The 100-Point-Relay can be stucked, if: a switch on "Top Bumper" is faulty-closed AND a switch on the "Change-Relay" is faulty-closed.

The 100-Point-Relay can be stucked, if: one of the (unusal / rare) "Make-and-Make-Switch Left-Top-Rollover" is faulty-closed - the side "Connection to the 100 Point-Relay". ATTENTION: This switch has 3 blades - BUT IT IS NOT a M&B-SWITCH.

The 100-Point-Relay can be stucked, if: The same as above: "B-Target" -> also there is a Make-and-Make-Switch (NOT M&B) !

The 100-Point-Relay can be stucked, if: The same as above: "Right Top Roll Over" ... !

The 100-Point-Relay can be stucked, if: The "Lib-Normal-ADJ-Switch is in Position "Normal" AND a M&B-Switch on Special-Relay is faulty (bent) to "let current flow to the 100-Point-Relay AND "Inside Right or Left Bottom Roll-Over Switch is faulty-closed.

This is what I see on these two pages (connecting some lines from Page-2 to Page-3). Greetings Rolf

P.S.: Please look on Page-2 -> Right Top R.O. / Left Top R.O. - are these switches of type "Make-and-Make" or of type "Make-and-Brake" ? (((Maybe I do not understand the drawing / the schema ?)))

#31 8 years ago

Ok I checked the ohms on the 100 point relay it was 2.2 The other 2 relays, 1point and 10point were both 17.6 ohms

The reel coils were all 8.2 ohms. Thanks!

#32 8 years ago

What about the 4 switches you mentioned that could be causing the issue? Measure for ohms across those switch points on the play field.

#33 8 years ago

I will try to check ohms tomorrow. I did play the game a little tonite and noticed the game would not score on the bumper thats worth 100 when lit, but while not lit it would score 10 as it should. However it's not going to register the 100 because the 100 relay in the backbox is always closed along with the 100 score reel coil having the plunger pulled in all the time.

The only time it will score 100 is when the game is over and the coil plunger is released.

#34 8 years ago
Quoted from jefwv:

I will try to check ohms tomorrow. I did play the game a little tonite and noticed the game would not score on the bumper thats worth 100 when lit, but while not lit it would score 10 as it should. However it's not going to register the 100 because the 100 relay in the backbox is always closed along with the 100 score reel coil having the plunger pulled in all the time.
The only time it will score 100 is when the game is over and the coil plunger is released.

Yup, that perfectly matches with my suspicion. A 100 pt. switch is stuck. Look for one of rolf_martin_062's suggestions if the ohms test for the switches doesn't expose the culprit.

#35 8 years ago

Hi jefwv
in this post I write some theory (only). About "looking for the fault": See my next post (to come).

Look at my BMP. On top from right to left You see a thick line / a thick wire. On the left it is marked "RED". Follow "RED" to the right -> through a Normally-closed switch on Reset-Relay" -> through the part "Closed-Switch on Game-Over-Relay"*** -> and from now-on the color of the wire is "BLACK"-> to the right -> not on my BMP -> Fuse -> transformer (power-side).
On the bottom of my BMP from right to left You see a thick line / a thick wire YELLOW -> to the left -> not on my BMP -> transformer (returning lug). (You may also look -> schema -> Page-3 and then page-2).

"Closed-Switch on Game-Over-Relay"***: Sometimes in a schema they draw (show) only half of a M&B-Make-and-Brake-Switch. They give a "hint": Actually it is a M&B-Switch BUT HERE we focus on the part "Brake". The wiring of the part "Make" of that M&B-Switch is drawn somewhere else in the schema (we make two drawings for better understanding).

OK, on top of my BMP there is "Power"-Wire (color RED or color BLACK). On the bottom there is the returning (to transformer) wire (color YELLOW).
Between "Power-Wire" and "Returning-Wire" there are hooked-in many Coils (of Relays) - these coils are mounted "parallel".
Example "Coil of 100-Point-Relay": (transformer -> Power-Wire -> through the coil -> wire -> switch -> wire -> switch -> wire -> Returning-Wire (-> tranformer). These switches are mounted "In series".
When the switches are all closed we have a circuitry and electricity can flow and therefore the coil produces magnetism "for the relay to pull". (As a side-effect the coil produces some heat).
If we open one of the switches: Current can no longer flow -> the relay gets inactive.

"A good coil <-> a damaged / ruined / shot / dead coil / blowing-a-fuse-coil":
Instead of "Your measured 17.6 Ohm" I write here "20 Ohm" (it suits me better).
Lets assume "on the coil is wire wound of "lenght 100 yards"". These 100 yards have an insulation around - no plastic, no fabric - just coating / paint / lacquer. BUT with this lacquer the windings are insulated apart. We do measure 20 Ohms on the coil. We would also measure 20 Ohms if we would unwind the coil and measure the length of these 100 yard (straightend from Start-Point to End-Point).

AAA: Our 100 yard of such wire (straightend) we will measure 20 Ohms.
BBB: If we take only 50 yard of such wire (straightend) we will measure 10 Ohms.
CCC: If we take only 25 yard of such wire (straightend) we will measure 5 Ohms.
DDD: If we take only 10 yard of such wire (straightend) we will measure 2 Ohms.
EEE: If we take only 5 yard of such wire (straightend) we will measure 1 Ohm.

A "rule of electicity" is: "Volts = Ohms times Amperes". The pin has about 25 Volt, so
AAA - 1.25 Ampere
BBB - 2.50 Ampere
CCC - 5.00 Ampere
DDD - 12.5 Ampere
EEE - 25.0 Ampere

On the 100-Point-Relay-Coil you measured "2.2" Ohm -> 25 / 2.2 = 11.363636 Ampere.
In the schema "Wms Hot Line" I see "24 Volt and a fuse of 15 Ampere. 24 / 2.2 = 10.9 Ampere. Your fuse does not blow.
If we take EEE (5 yard, 1 Ohm) -> 24 Volt / 1 Ohm = 24 Ampere. The fuse WILL BLOW.

Another "rule of electricity" is: A side effect of current flowing is "Heat". The more Amperes - the more heat.
When a coil gets hot and hotter ... the insulation / lacquer starts to melt or to change into coal (think of charcoal) - well, whatever - a local short is made -> the electrons take the shortcut. Other local shorts are made (other shortcuts) -> -> -> Our "100 yards of wire" -> 99 -> 98 -> 80 -> 70 -> ... AND THE SHORTER THE WIRE, THE MORE AMPERES FLOW AND THE MORE HEAT AND THE MORE MELTING OF INSULATION AND MORE SHORTS -> -> THE COIL WILL BE BURNT / SHOT AND PRODUCES A real SHORT -> THE FUSE BLOW.

jefwv, You should replace the coil of your 100-Point-RELAY - soon Your 15-Amp-Fuse will blow (You then say: I have a short in my pin). In the schema I read "M 29-1100" - a very common coil (easy to get). Greetings Rolf

#36 8 years ago

Thanks Rolf! snyper, newnan and the others for helping a newbie through all this.
I disconnected all the solder lugs for the 4 places that are good for 100 points. Still same problem with the 100 point relay locking

The 100 point relay that was reading 2.2 ohms, is now reading 18 ohms AFTER I unsoldered it. urggggh!!!
I checked ohms on the wires that were on the coil lugs on the 100 point relay and sure enough 2.2 ohms.

Incidentally, the chime coil is always engaged along with the 100 point relay. I unplugged the jones plug that only has the chime and knocker connected to it and the 100 point relay still stuck closed. This thing is driving me crazy haha.

It didn't always stick! When I first got the game going where I could play it somewhat, this wasn't an issue.

#37 8 years ago

Hi jefwv
in this post I write some theory (only). About "looking for the fault": See my next post (to come).

I like http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/ -> down to EM Games (Electromechanical): http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair
I like http://www.pinrepair.com/ -> down to 1930s to 1978 EM Pinball Repair Guide: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm
I like http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/tip_archive.html -> Electro-machanical Tips: http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/emTips.html
A LOT OF HELPFUL INFORMATION

http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/tip0221.html :
The thinner a wire is - the more resistance (Ohms) there is in (the wire 100 yards long). Look at the chart: AWG-20 -> 79, AWG-26 -> 40, AWG-32 -> 19.
The more resistance (Ohms) in a wire - the less Amperes flows through, the less "Magnetic force / power".
The manufacturer used all kinds of "AWG", Number of turns (around the coil) to meet the needs (for a given Relay or Stepper-Unit-Coil), example "M 29-1100": AWG-29, 1100 windings on the coil.

If ever You want to measure "Ohms" of a coil: UNSOLDER the wire(s) on one side of the coil -> you get a correct reading.
If You measure the coil having "wires-soldered-on" on both sides (lugs) You can get wrong readings - in a pin there a lot of connections and you might measure "connection all the way around".
Example: Pull (unplug) the Line-Cord (110 VAC). Take away the 24Volt-15Ampere-Fuse. Measure the resistance between Socket-(of-fuse)-left and Socket-right. Do You read "a Million of Ohms" ?
No, You may read maybe 10 or 20 or 30 or 40 Ohms, because there is a connection (look on Schema-Page-1, near the transformer): "Socket of fuse" -> Black-Yellow-White -> throug all the windings of the transformer -> YELLOW -> closed "Kick-Off-Switch" -> Br-B -> through all the windings of "Lock-Relay" -> "Switch on G.O.-Relay"*** -> around the corner to the other "Fuse-Socket". With Your Ohm-Meter you measure the resistance of this connection !!!

"Switch on G.O.-Relay"***: In the Schema we see this M&B-Switch drawn open - we believe: No connection. Always keep in mind: The drawing "Schema" is a Snap-Shot at a given time: A game has been started, the first ball is ready to play (it is in the Launching-Lane) AND THEN THE LINE-CORD IS PULLED.
So relays might return (stop pulling) as there is no current anymore - BUT relays in a "Relay-Bank" do not return, (but) relays of type "Interlock-Relay" do not return.
I believe: "Switch on G.O.-Relay"*** is closed when the Line-cord is pulled. I searched the schema - I do not find the "Game-Over-Relay-Coil" (maybe I am too stupid to see ?). Well, anyway look here: http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2110/Williams_1967_Shangri_La_Schematic_Diagram_paginated.pdf -> page-2 -> Game-Over-Relay (Latch) (F-8) and at the end of page-4 Game-Over-Relay (Trip). So the Game-Over-Relay of Shangri-La is of type "Interlock with Latch and Trip coils".

jefwv, please look in your Pin, is your Game-Over-Relay of type "Interlock" or of type "a relay in a Bank-of-Relays" or a "regular relay" (like the 100-Point-Relay) ? DO YOU SEE THE COIL(S) OF GAME-OVER-RELAY in the schema "Hot Line" ??? In the schema-page-5 and page-6 I do NOT find "Game-Over-Relay" - well, do we want to open a club "This thing is driving me crazy haha" ?

Well, I have written some more theory. Please tell us about Your "Game-Over-Relay".
About "looking for the fault": See my next post (to come), Greetings Rolf

#38 8 years ago

Hi jefwv
a lot of "good stuff" -> http://rwatts.cdyn.com/Machines/download_area.html -> down to the third link "Introduction to Bally Flipper Games": http://rwatts.cdyn.com/download/intro%20to%20bally%20flipper%20games.pdf (everything is good) -> page-10 of 51 (Ori-8): the symbols, do You see the symbol of a "Double Make / Make-Make / Type-D Switch" ? In my post-30, last sentence +/-: Please look on (ipdb-schema) Page-2 -> Right Top R.O. / Left Top R.O. - are these switches of type "Make-and-Make" ? Yes, they are Make-Make-Switches.
Look further in rwatts.cdyn.com -> Page-22 of 51 (Ori-20): a "Interlock-Type-Relay", is Your Game-Over-Relay of such type ? Or is it a "Normal / Regular Relay" (Page-18 of 51 (Ori-16)) ? Or is it mounted in a "Relay-Bank" ? Please report.

If ever You are after a spezific Williams / Bally part: http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=BOOK -> for example You are looking for "Hot Line" parts -> "Williams / United 1969 Parts Catalog -Volume 1": http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/WMS_Parts_1969/index.html (nice ?).

If ever You want to test "Is the coil of this relay good ?" -> http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/tip0124.html .

Problem "100-Point-Relay constantly pulls":
Have a look at my BMP. On top I connected (thick line) the wire RED from page-3 to page-2 (the power-wire). A bit below I connected (thick line) another wire. We do not bother about this wire (not related with / to the 100-Point-Relay-Problem). The 3rd-Horizontal-Line (3rd-H-L) I connected (thick line): This 3rd-H-L*** is very important !!!
On the bottom of my BMP I connected (thick line) the wire YELLOW (the "wire returning to the transformer").
Now look in the ipdb-schema, page-3 and page-2. Do you recognize RED and 3rd-H-L and YELLOW ? Now you can delete the BMP (hard to read text / bad quality).

3rd-H-L***: It hops (jumps) over several "Top-Down-Wires" (no connection). It ends (page-3) at a "branching / forking" Point (near the text "BR-Y").
When there is a connection YELLOW -> wire -> closed-switch -> wire -> "3rd-H-L-Point-near-text-BR-Y" THEN the 100-Point-Relay pulls.

So You must check everything I wrote in post-30. Lets start with a simple test:

Pull out the Lib-Normal-Adj-plug. Insulate the "pulled-out" plug. Start a game -> what is Your 100-Point-Relay doing ?

Keep the Lib-Normal-Adj-Plug pulled-Out !!! Next test: Sneak-in some stripes of paper (to make "secure insulation") into "Right Top Rollover-Switch": two stripes, between the points (!). Also have a look at the end of the blades / solder-lugs: Are they bent and make (faulty) connection ? Start a game -> what is Your 100-Point-Relay doing ?

Keep the Lib-Normal-Adj-Plug pulled-Out !!! Let the stripes of paper in these switches !!! Next test: Do the same with the "A-Target" and the "B-Target" ...

I must stop now (things to do) - please report and we proceed tomorrow (?) Greetings Rolf

#39 8 years ago

Well this is a bit embarrassing, I overlooked the outlanes scoring 100 points. One of the right bottom outlane switches were completely shoved together. I must have done it while lifting and lowering the playfield. Sorry to put everyone to so much trouble trying to help over something so simple. Couldn't see the forest for the trees! You have all taught me a lot but still have a lot to learn. Thanks everyone!

#40 8 years ago

I knew it. A stuck 100 point switch on the PF!

#41 8 years ago

Thats right snyper2099, you tried to tell me! Thanks

newmantjn, could you post a pic of the score adjustment pins in the backbox for me? I can't get the letters to spell out in h-o-t-l-i-n-e. They did at one time and think maybe I changed something there, or somewhere. Bottom outlanes say 100 points or next letter, I'm not getting either. Also when the gate is open on the upper right pf and the ball goes through it, it is supposed to advance next letter and doesn't. Can't get the letters to light now. Thanks

#42 8 years ago
Quoted from jefwv:

could you post a pic of the score adjustment pins in the backbox for me?

I would if I thought it would help, but I'm quite sure your problem lies elsewhere.

Quoted from jefwv:

can't get the letters to spell out in h-o-t-l-i-n-e.

So, are you saying that in that middle block of lights, nothing ever comes on?
When you start a game, they should briefly all come on, then the ones NOT involved in your current letter go off as the relays for those lights pop, leaving just your current letter. Like this for the first ball on startup

* * *
* * *
* * *
then
* - *
* * *
* - *

* = on
- = off

What exactly happens?

I'm suspecting your reset bank isn't pulling in. Is this the case? Can you pull the bar in by hand and get all the lights to pop on? Can you watch it pull in on reset?

#43 8 years ago

Hello, no the rollover button lights are all working as they should. It's the white lights below the rollovers that indicate which letter has been achieved. I found that it was the advance unit under the playfield. It was gummed up pretty good, so took it apart and cleaned it and working freely now. However with the pf glass off and pf on the prop I start a game and manually push the rollover buttons to get the h, then o and so on. sometimes the advance unit solenoid will fire sometimes it won't. Sometimes I can play a few games and it works fine. Then maybe it won't advance.

Another problem which has got me is the gate wants to open after getting a and b lit, which it should. It never closes, not after a new game is started, never unless the machine is powered down. It has a gate relay under the pf under the gate itself and a gate relay control under the pf but back beside the change control relay. I have checked the coils and both work and cleaned and adjusted all the contacts but still the gate won't retract. It also seems to have no effect on the game play or scoring. I think if the ball goes through the gate it is supposed to light the next letter, but never does.

#44 8 years ago

Sounds like your runway switch isn't adjusted correctly. It is very fussy. And keep in mind the the dynamics of a ball going over it are likely different than if you just slide your finger over it.

#45 8 years ago

Even if I hold the switch contacts together it offers nothing.

#46 8 years ago
Quoted from jefwv:

Even if I hold the switch contacts together it offers nothing.

That is a make/break switch. It is equally important that the top half lets go.

#47 8 years ago

Checked it out last night and it seems to be adjusted ok and clean.

#48 8 years ago

To try to narrow down what is going on, please run the following experiment and tell me what happens.

1. Power off the game
2. Open the hood.
3. Locate BOTH the Gate Control Relay and the Gate Relay
4. Observe the state of both relays and record it.
5. Turn on the machine
6. Observe the state of both relays and record it.
7. Start a new game, simulate the ball going through the trough and down the shooter lane.
8. Observe the state of both relays and record it.
9. Actuate rollover A & B
10. Observe the state of both relays and record it.
11. Actuate the shooter lane switch.
12. Observe the state of both relays and record it.
13. Simulate the ball going through the trough and down the shooter lane.
14. Observe the state of both relays and record it.
Assuming the gate is still open and the light is still on:
15 . "Earn" a letter by pushing the appropriate HOTLINE rollover buttons.
16. Actuate the shooter lane switch.
17. Observe the state of both relays and record it.

#49 8 years ago

All open until#10. gate relay closed (to open the gate) gate control relay open
Stays in this state all the way through #17.

Is the linkage on the gate supposed to trip the gate relay to close after the ball goes through it?
On my machine when a & b are achieved, the gate opens. Then on the back side of the gate there is also a gate that isn't attached to the linkage for the gate on the pf side. Like it is there to keep the ball from getting out of the shooter lane and on the pf. Thanks

#50 8 years ago
Quoted from jefwv:

gate control relay open

That is your problem then. They BOTH need to pull in. The gate relay pulls in the gate control relay, which in turn cuts lock in circuit on the gate relay.

I can't upload a picture for some reason, but look here:

https://goo.gl/photos/nPP8Ptj7zM54CyYU8

The green path needs to be open at some point. This happens when the two normally closed switches marked in green open and the runway switch opens. Since you said your gate control relay never pulls in, those two switches will never open.

Why doesn't your gate control relay pull in?

Quoted from jefwv:

I have checked the coils and both work and cleaned and adjusted all the contacts

If you did a good job on the above, the most likely culprit is the NC switch on the outhole relay marked in red towards the top is dirty or misadjusted.

Check that first, maybe double check the gate relay switch marked in red towards the bottom.

Good luck.

Yes, your second gate sounds right.

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