(Topic ID: 326836)

First Pin Purchase in Decades - Suggestions Requested

By RetroRambler

1 year ago


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  • 64 posts
  • 34 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by jk2171
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    #1 1 year ago

    I am in the market for a pin for the family game room. I have a number of arcade machines, but this will be my first pinball machine in a LONG time. I grew up in the 70's/80's and we had a Bally Wizard! as a family machine. I have fond memories of that machine and spent many hours on it. I don't want another EM like the Wizard I had growing up, but I also don't think I am much for deep rule set games like modern Sterns. I am looking for a fun game that is more of a "chase the high score" with fun shots. I only have room for one pin right now, so I am trying to find a good machine. I have the budget for a MM or TZ pricing, but I don't know if those games fall into the "complicated" category. I am thinking something like a Whirlwind, STTNG, Fish Tales, etc type game. I am comfortable working on games since I do most of my arcade machine builds/fixes. With that said, I am getting tired of projects so I would prefer something that is reliable that doesn't require huge amounts of maintenance. I understand regular maintenance and service is required. No issues there - I get that. I just don't want a headache. STTNG is probably at the top of my list because I was a huge fan, but I have been told those tend to be maintenance prone. What say you? Any suggestions? I am in Texas if you are selling a machine, I may be interested in.

    #2 1 year ago

    > m looking for a fun game that is more of a "chase the high score" with fun shots.

    Bram Stokers Dracula

    -4
    #3 1 year ago

    Supremo

    #4 1 year ago
    Quoted from The_Pump_House:

    > m looking for a fun game that is more of a "chase the high score" with fun shots.
    Bram Stokers Dracula

    Thank you. That looks like a great game.

    #5 1 year ago

    For me, the best 'shoot for score' WPC's I have are: T2, Bram Stoker Dracula, Attack from Mars, the Getaway, and The Shadow.
    I'm really partial to T2 and Getaway.

    #6 1 year ago

    Fish Tales is a hard pin to beat for simple, fun shots that are both rewarding and challenging. High risk game if you flip on the fly. Tons of fun and hard to walk away from.

    #7 1 year ago
    Quoted from guitarded:

    Fish Tales is a hard pin to beat for simple, fun shots that are both rewarding and challenging. High risk game if you flip on the fly. Tons of fun and hard to walk away from.

    FT is up there too...that wouldve been the next I named!

    #8 1 year ago

    Whirlwind is a great choice.

    Happy storm chasing

    #9 1 year ago

    Thanks guys, this is very helpful. So, am I the minority on wanting a fun, simple game? I guess I enjoy the 80s arcade games because I can have a quick round of Donkey Kong or Galaga and have a great time. I am always trying to get those 3 initials for the top 5 high scores but my scores are also not very high because I don't spend the time to become really good. I am very much a casual player, but I never tire of playing those games. I view the pinball machine the same. Just something for some quick fun without becoming a time sink. Modern video games can suck you in for weeks at a time. As much as I would like to do that, I don't have the time. Same with pinball, I just don't think I would spend the time to learn those complex rules, nor would I spend the time to become good enough to master it.

    #10 1 year ago

    You are worried that Medieval Madness may be too complicated but want a Star Trek Next Generation? I would say the latter is a little more complicated than the former. Medieval Madness is fairly simple and I would say fits right into what you are looking for "chase high score". Watch a video on youtube which explains the rules and you'll see what I'm talking about.

    As for your question - are you in the minority waiting a fun simple game? Well for home use you may get bored with that especially if it is your only game.

    I hesitate to make recommendations to you other than to say "go play a handful of these games". Find a bar, arcade, pinball show, etc. Your area isn't listed but you may have some pinball related clubs you could meet up with in your area too.

    Also - download pinball games on your ipad or computer (Steam) and you can demo all the games for a bit and buy the commercial games for a few bucks each. Cheap way to get an idea of the rulesets. Look at PinballFX on Steam. I think they also have it for PS4/PS5 and XBOX but I'm not sure.

    #11 1 year ago
    Quoted from brainmegaphone:

    You are worried that Medieval Madness may be too complicated but want a Star Trek Next Generation? I would say the latter is a little more complicated than the former. Medieval Madness is fairly simple and I would say fits right into what you are looking for "chase high score". Watch a video on youtube which explains the rules and you'll see what I'm talking about.
    As for your question - are you in the minority waiting a fun simple game? Well for home use you may get bored with that especially if it is your only game.
    I hesitate to make recommendations to you other than to say "go play a handful of these games". Find a bar, arcade, pinball show, etc. Your area isn't listed but you may have some pinball related clubs you could meet up with in your area too.
    Also - download pinball games on your ipad or computer (Steam) and you can demo all the games for a bit and buy the commercial games for a few bucks each. Cheap way to get an idea of the rulesets. Look at PinballFX on Steam. I think they also have it for PS4/PS5 and XBOX but I'm not sure.

    I haven't played either MM or STTNG. I was just going on cursory looks and it looked like MM was more complicated but that was just a guess and an inaccurate one at that I found a couple of local places that had some machines, but they were all new Sterns. They were fun but there was a lot of stuff on the playfield. There is a coffee house that has some 90s machines, so I am going to go play some of those for comparison. Thanks for the tip on the app and video game. I hadn't thought of looking at the various playfields that way.

    #12 1 year ago

    I would check out remakes from Chicago gaming.

    11
    #13 1 year ago

    Since you’ve stated concerns about maintenance, I wouldn’t recommend anybody but a serious hobbyist buy a next gen, it breaks like it’s it’s Job. You really couldn’t make a worse choice (well, you could, like buying an Alien or Big Lebowski or other amateur hour boutique game).

    Buy a CGC remake or a new in box stern. Life will be easier.

    #14 1 year ago

    Sounds like a CGC remake is exactly what you want. They are very well built,and have that 90's style rule-sets that seem to be what you want.

    Any of MMr, MBr, AFMr, or CCr would likely work well for you. While a TZ or STTNG might be temping (and they ARE fun games) they will require a lot more maintenance.

    If you are in the DFW area, we have an active tournament/league group. This might allow you to try out a bunch of games and maybe get a lead on machines available for sale.

    #15 1 year ago
    Quoted from mbeardsley:

    Sounds like a CGC remake is exactly what you want. They are very well built,and have that 90's style rule-sets that seem to be what you want.
    Any of MMr, MBr, AFMr, or CCr would likely work well for you. While a TZ or STTNG might be temping (and they ARE fun games) they will require a lot more maintenance.
    If you are in the DFW area, we have an active tournament/league group. This might allow you to try out a bunch of games and maybe get a lead on machines available for sale.

    I am still a n00b, what is a "CGC remake"?

    #16 1 year ago
    Quoted from RetroRambler:

    I am still a n00b, what is a "CGC remake"?

    Chicago Gaming Company makes licensed remakes of several 90's era Bally Williams machines.

    Medieval Madness
    Monster Bash
    Cactus Canyon
    Attack From Mars

    I'm sticking with my intial advice of Bram Stokers Dracula. They can still be had at comparably low prices and you can always sell it later if you tire of it. It just seems to suit your criteria to a T.

    #17 1 year ago

    I'd go for Taxi or Eight Ball Deluxe.

    #18 1 year ago

    I still consider myself a noob when it comes to pinball. Playing as many games as you can is great advice if you are in an area with a variety of games. I live in a pinball desert so I didn't have many options to try games on location when I started in the hobby. I initially watched game play videos on YouTube and also got Pinball Arcade 1 &2 on PS4 to get better ideas of which games appealed to me.

    I found I really like early 80 solid states. For your budget you could buy 2 early 80 SS machines. They're a lot of fun and imho pretty easy to maintain.

    #19 1 year ago

    Really agree with the CGC remakes - sounds like it will be one pin (for now...) and you want something with enough depth to not get too stale and not so much depth as to be too long of a game. I have a Getaway and while I love it as a quick play game, it would get really old really quick if that was my only pin. My order of preference for a one pin collection CGC remake:

    1. Cactus Canyon,
    2. Monster Bash,
    3. Attack from Mars,
    4. Medieval Madness.

    #20 1 year ago

    Whatever you do, play the game you zero on at location like 30+ games so you can really tell if you like the flow and geometry. Don't get fooled by themes, or placebo. Play play play. Use pinballmap.com to locate on-location pins near you.

    #21 1 year ago
    Quoted from RetroRambler:

    So, am I the minority on wanting a fun, simple game?

    Not even remotely, you just have to understand that there's a vocal segment here that wants to spend all day talking about how deeply coded a game can possibly get. They don't represent all players, it's just that the simpler games aren't something you talk about over and over, you just play them.

    My advice is just get an Attack from Mars. They're very simple to understand, have the most clear and basic layout in maybe all of pinball, and still have enough magic to make even good players have fun. There's a reason it's a classic still even all these years later.

    You can teach even a brand new player very simply how to shoot up the middle or start multiball, it's clearer visually than Medieval Madness, and I think most good players will tell you has a better ruleset for advanced play if you find yourself wanting to dig deeper.

    I second anyone's opinions about not buying a Star Trek TNG, you're not ready to own that game. It's as much of a pain in the ass as they say.

    #22 1 year ago
    Quoted from The_Pump_House:

    Chicago Gaming Company makes licensed remakes of several 90's era Bally Williams machines.

    Medieval Madness
    Monster Bash
    Cactus Canyon
    Attack From Mars

    Tech support is important should you ever need it.

    And I'm with CGC !

    LTG : )

    #23 1 year ago

    OK, I’m going to suggest something way off track from most, but might be up your alley. Data East Phantom of the Opera. It’s on more of the simple side, different from your mainstream games, and doesn’t seem to get a lot of attention.

    Had no desire for the game until I played one, it just blew me away how fun it is. Somewhere down the line, I may get one for ourselves, I just don’t have the need or “bug” to get another machine right now. I’d own one in a heartbeat if it was time.

    #24 1 year ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    Tech support is important should you ever need it.
    And I'm with CGC !
    LTG : )

    Tech support? That’s you man!

    #25 1 year ago

    Unless you just love working on and fixing games don't immediately turn yourself off to the hobby by buying something that's going to need 2 weeks of diagnosing and repair because 25 year old hardware doesn't like being transported.

    Cactus Canyon Remake is a great game that you can still find decent deals on. Good luck finding any of the other remakes for less than $10K and it's more loaded than most Stern Premiums, which are also good options but also more expensive.

    #26 1 year ago

    I’d get a CGC remake if you don’t like repairs, although Cactus Canyon is the only one that seems to be available. You could also consider a Haggis Fathom once those start being dispatched/delivered.

    If you’re up for repairs, Fish Tales is a great game for chasing high scores.

    I’d also recommend a modern Stern like Deadpool or Godzilla. You don’t need to understand the complex rules to enjoy them. The basic ruleset is as simple as Attack from Mars or Medieval Madness.

    #27 1 year ago

    I also think that CGC’s remake of Attack from Mars would be a great choice. Easy for beginners, but fun enough to keep seasoned players coming back.

    #28 1 year ago

    Wow, I woke up this morning to much activity and suggestions - thank you everyone. I am going to check out the pins on Steam. I will also check out the pinball locator for some local play time and the marketplace for the titles everyone mentioned.

    #29 1 year ago

    STTNG is my favorite all time game. I would not recommend that as a first pin as it is HEAVY, and has a gazillion things in it that break.

    My top recommendations for you would be:

    1. Any CGC remake... and I'd put Monster Bash at the top of your list. If you ever liked Monstor Movies this can feel nostalgic. It is happy, silly, and upbeat with simple rules. Collect all the characters to get Draculas band back together. Hit each character a set number of times to collect them. Attack from Mars and Medieval Madness are both excellent, and have high replay value with a simple rule set. I've had an Attack From Mars remake from CGC as well as an original rotate through my basement. The CGC is solid and reliable. Williams is easier to fix, but CGC is MUCH less likely to break.

    2. If you want a simple rule set and quicker games, Fish Tales is perfect. It is rock solid reliable and you still see these on route because of that. Still a super fun game and a favorite at pinball tournaments because it is quick.

    3. I'm going to come out of left field on this one and recommend Total Nuclear Annhilation from Spooky pinball. You can get it new right now and is a throwback to an 80s style single level machine. It's fast, quirky, and addictive. Mixed record on reliability according to others, but parts are readily available and I personally never had issues.

    4. If you do end up with a Modernish Stern, Munsters is the simplest game with an LCD screen.

    5. Stern Star Trek is a great game you'll never beat. It has modern electronics and is rock solid reliable. You could also get one for half the price of a new CGC. Great first pin.

    #30 1 year ago

    Chase the high score pins: system 11.

    #31 1 year ago

    I would recommend actually putting several plays on Cactus Canyon to see if you like it (and want to continue playing it) before purchasing it - especially if it will be your only game.

    While the same could be said of buying any game, that one in particular doesn’t “toot my horn”. All the other CGC remake games are great though.

    #32 1 year ago
    Quoted from skink91:

    I would recommend actually putting several plays on Cactus Canyon to see if you like it (and want to continue playing it) before purchasing it - especially if it will be your only game.
    While the same could be said of buying any game, that one in particular doesn’t “toot my horn”. All the other CGC remake games are great though.

    I think he can play this on Steam or a computer platform. I agree CC is very much an acquired taste. Everyone I know of that has one has a larger collection. I personally don’t recommend it over MM or AFM but the one thing it has going for it is availability.

    #33 1 year ago

    skink91 and brainmegaphone I am not feeling the Cactus Canyon Western theme, so I agree with your recommendations. I may be overly superficial looking at the art/theme vs gameplay, but I can't help it. I don't know if I could just focus on gameplay outside of theme - maybe one day. On a side note, I may move the pinball machine downstairs to another room instead of the game room for more room and not having to deal with a second floor. Arcade machines are difficult enough to get up the stairs. I think a pinball machine may be too problematic. If I do that, I will have space for 3 pins total which give me more options for variety.

    How are the System 9 machines? I found a local Space Shuttle for a solid price and the reviews look like it's a good pin. I like the era and theme of this one. There is also a Terminator 2 and Terminator 3 in my area. There isn't much available on FB Marketplace right now. There is a High Speed about 5 hours away, but I think he is a bit high on the price.

    I know I may be in for more maintenance work, but I am feeling drawn to the mid-80s through mid-90s machines. I did find a guy that owns all the machines at the local coffee bar I was speaking about earlier. I spoke with him briefly on the phone and he apparently is a whiz on everything from EMs forward so at least I have a knowledge reference or a paid resource in the event I can't sort something out. I know I said I didn't want a headache, but the nostalgia is kicking my ass on this so I may be destined for another time sink hobby vs buying a newer remake or Stern. I will say the Sterns I played at the local bowling alley felt like junk. Maybe junk is too strong a word but I don't see how these would survive on an operator route. The Bally/Williams machines from the 70s-90s are just tanks are they feel a lot sturdier than the Sterns. The Sterns remind me of the home units that used to be sold by Sears and such. Ok maybe not that bad, but they didn't feel like commercial arcade build quality to hold up to thousands of play abuse. It looks like pinball shifted from commercial routes to home use so I guess they don't need the build quality but it still didn't give me a warm and fuzzy when compared to what I am historically used to with a pin.

    #34 1 year ago
    Quoted from RetroRambler:

    I am not feeling the Cactus Canyon Western theme, so I agree with your recommendation. I may be overly superficial looking at the art/theme vs gameplay, but I can't help it. I don't know if I could just focus on gameplay outside of theme - maybe one day.

    For what its worth, eventually theme became almost no consideration for me… I just want the shots to make me happy and to keep wanting to play “just one more” (i.e. the Pringles effect).

    I really like the whole western theme… for me it is the gameplay and layout that suffer on CC. Different strokes for different folks though.

    I am also totally addicted to the early solid-states (1978-1983ish). For me it just doesn’t get better.

    #35 1 year ago

    OK,Ive read all these good examples,But,they left out all the early "ss"pins! When I want to just play pinball without all the modes,I go to my "galaxy" or my "Meteor" great examples of just fun playing! Diner and Fish Tales also good fun! Stay away from newer titles! Have fun,B safe!!

    #36 1 year ago
    Quoted from skink91:

    For what its worth, eventually theme became almost no consideration for me… I just want the shots to make me happy and to keep wanting to play “just one more” (i.e. the Pringles effect).

    I am also totally addicted to the early solid-states (1978-1983ish). For me it just doesn’t get better.

    I think we are much alike then. That is what I am after as well. I am a huge sucker for 80's retro themed anything especially in space or retro tech genre's. Being raised on Star Wars and scifi from that era had a lasting impact. I really like the Pinbot/Space Shuttle type theme. I am also a big movie and comic fan from that era so those genres will also have high appeal to me. But to your point, I shouldn't focus on that alone but if I can have both fun that would be the proverbial "cherry on top".

    #37 1 year ago

    If I was "in your shoes" and if you have the space instead of buying one higher prices machine I would pick up two or three cheaper machines. High on my list of those "cheaper machines" would be Space Shuttle (backglass looks great with machine off so something to look at when not in use) a fun machine that looks great, Pin-Bot (good value yet and fun to play), and if you have the room for a third pretty much any other Williams System 11 machine.

    It never made sense to me to buy one $7500 to $10,000 machine if you have room for 3 "cheaper machines". But everyone needs to do what is best for themself.

    #38 1 year ago

    Getaway is a great game based on your criteria. Face paced, easy to understand and not overly complicated with objectives that are achievable by an average skilled player, supercharger loop is great, and music & callouts are good too. You should be able to find a few out there in all different conditions and price ranges. If you are not that familiar with the title, you are basically fleeing the law on the highways in your Lamborghini Diablo - what could be more fun?

    #39 1 year ago

    AFM. This is an easy decision.

    #40 1 year ago
    Quoted from hawkmoon:

    OK,Ive read all these good examples,But,they left out all the early "ss"pins!

    I suggested early SS pins in my previous post. It's the best era of machines IMO. They're a lot of fun, easy to work on and maintain, and simple enough that guests can come over and play without needing lengthy instructions. I'd recommend Paragon and/or firepower.

    #41 1 year ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    AFM. This is an easy decision.

    Certainly my #1 choice if budget allows, but good quality examples are hard to find (even remakes are limited) and when you do, they are priced at a premium.

    #42 1 year ago
    Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:

    Getaway is a great game based on your criteria. Face paced, easy to understand and not overly complicated with objectives that are achievable by an average skilled player, supercharger loop is great, good audio. You should be able to find a few out there in all different conditions and price ranges. If you are not that familiar with the title, you are basically fleeing the law on the highways in your Lamborghini Diablo - what could be more fun?

    Now there is a great lineup: Getaway, Pin-Bot & Space Shuttle!

    #43 1 year ago

    Since you are a Star Trek fan, try to find a Stern Star Trek to play. Very easy to understand rules and layout. Plays fast and that warp ramp is a blast!

    #44 1 year ago

    If you’re drawn to 80-90s games get a Pinbot. Really fun game and reasonably priced. I love space/robot themes as well.
    If you have a bigger budget and are willing to wait, a Multimorphic P3.

    #45 1 year ago
    Quoted from hawkmoon:

    OK,Ive read all these good examples,But,they left out all the early "ss"pins! When I want to just play pinball without all the modes,I go to my "galaxy" or my "Meteor" great examples of just fun playing! Diner and Fish Tales also good fun! Stay away from newer titles! Have fun,B safe!!

    I suggested Attack From Mars because you can get one new (or close to) and it hopefully won't require much work or restoration. And they're not hard to find with the remakes having saturated the market.

    If there's now room for 3 pins I definitely suggest making one an early 80s solid state. They're very simple, very fun, and more challenging and long lasting than that simplicity implies.

    Everyone knows the obvious ones like Fathom, Centaur, and Eight Ball Deluxe. All good choices. My slightly less obvious one though would be Mystic. The tic-tac-toe inserts with the drop targets are easy to understand, fun to shoot for, and the game is beautiful. I miss mine.

    #46 1 year ago

    I spent a lot of time reading about the CGC remakes, and I think I want to stick with originals. I have had run-ins with CGC in the arcade world with 'Arcade Legends' machines and they are udder rubbish minus the nice-looking cabinet art. I just don't trust their electronics long term and you can't get parts for their older arcades so I am am fairly certain finding replacement boards for these pins will be difficult once manufacturing stops. Unless things have changed recently at CGC, they don't keep inventory on hand for spares/maintenance.

    I have two machines that are local that I am torn between. High Speed vs Space Shuttle for position #3. Would you rank Taxi and Pinbot above High Spee and Space Shuttle? I found these four machines local, but I only have room for 3, so I put my list as:

    Taxi
    Pin Bot
    High Speed/Space Shuttle

    Would you guys support that list or should I make some swaps based on how they play or any of them being too similar to each other? I have Taxi as number 1 but I have never played it. I am not a fan of the artwork for sure but it gets talked up a lot so I have it on the list.

    #47 1 year ago
    Quoted from RetroRambler:

    I spent a lot of time reading about the CGC remakes, and I think I want to stick with originals. I have had run-ins with CGC in the arcade world with 'Arcade Legends' machines and they are udder rubbish minus the nice-looking cabinet art. I just don't trust their electronics long term and you can't get parts for their older arcades so I am am fairly certain finding replacement boards for these pins will be difficult once manufacturing stops. Unless things have changed recently at CGC, they don't keep inventory on hand for spares/maintenance.
    I have two machines that are local that I am torn between. High Speed vs Space Shuttle. Would you rank Taxi and Pinbot above High Spee and Space Shuttle? I found these four machines local, but I only have room for so I put my list as
    Taxi
    Pin Bot
    High Speed/Space Shuttle
    Would you guys support that list or should I make some swaps based on how they play or any of them being too similar to each other? I have Taxi as number 1 but I have never played it. I am not a fan of the artwork for sure but it gets talked up a lot so I have it on the list.

    I've had all of those (although my Space Shuttle Never Worked):

    Taxi: Best for you. Easy to understand, hard to master. Great theme, doesn't get old, plenty to do... annoy the crap out of family with the bell.

    Pin Bot: Best overall package. Best topper. Best 80s feel. Best for kids.

    High Speed: Easiest to explain to guests. Simple rules. Fun theme.

    Space Shuttle: Hardest to listen to (long term). Best "to shoot for score on".

    Note than none of these have to be nailed to the floor. You could always get one then trade for a different one later on. Of these I personally miss my Taxi the most. You'd have fun playing Taxi the most but these are all great choices.

    Here are my examples with out of date pricing if you want something to compare condition to. Most of mine have video walkthroughs.

    SOLD!
    Machine - For Sale
    Used - shows wear but 100% working and clean - “Pinbot- New Plastics, LEDs, Rubbers! Pinbot Circuits Activated! Up for grabs is a nice Pinbot. A fun system 11 game you can still get for under $3,000. Positives: Plays 100% and so...”
    2021-12-18
    Crofton, MD
    2,800
    Archived after: 1 day
    Viewed: 350 times
    Status: Sold (amount private)
    Contributed to Pinside

    SOLD!
    Machine - For Sale
    As is - “A pinball project in 2021? Not possible you say? Here you go! I have up for grabs a Space Shuttle Project! What about the backglass? Looks brand new! How about the legs? Rustier ...”
    2021-06-26
    Crofton, MD
    700 (OBO)
    Archived after: 0 days
    Viewed: 146 times
    Status: Sold for $ 600
    Contributed to Pinside

    SOLD!
    Machine - For Sale
    Used - shows wear but 100% working and clean - “Taxi: Game is super fun and plays fast. Make the millions shot, hit a jackpot, or lock both balls to make airport shots. The factory bell is installed and is obnoxiously awesome. W...”
    2020-05-24
    Crofton, MD
    2,200
    Archived after: 1 day
    Viewed: 365 times
    Status: Sold for $ 2,100
    Contributed to Pinside

    SOLD!
    Machine - For Sale
    Partially shopped/refurbished - “High Speed: Legalized Robbery! It’s Too Cheap! Up for grabs is my High Speed! Excellent Cabinet, good playfield with a few touchups in the out-lanes and touchups in the upper hal...”
    2020-02-23
    Crofton, MD
    1,800
    Archived after: 3 days
    Viewed: 1010 times
    Status: Sold for $ 1,800
    Contributed to Pinside

    #48 1 year ago

    Cactus Canyon remake SE ( no topper) everyone loves it at my home

    #49 1 year ago

    MM or FT. You cant go wrong with either of those

    #50 1 year ago

    Personally, I never found Taxi to be all that great. I don't think it sucks or anything, but I'd certainly rank Pinbot and HighSpeed above it.

    I haven't played Space Shuttle as much as the others, but I can't say it left that great an impression on me.

    Surprised to hear that you've had problems with CGC products. I've never had one of their Arcades, but by my experience (and by the vast majority of opinions here) their pinballs have been very solid. And parts seem to be quite available through Planetary Pinball - of course whether that will remain true in the decades to come is anybody's guess.

    There are 64 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

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