(Topic ID: 313978)

First game that used the end-of-ball bonus system?

By paulace

2 years ago


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  • 21 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by I_P_D_B
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    #1 2 years ago

    Just out of curiosity, does anyone know which pin was the first to use the "collect bonus when the ball drains" bonus sytem? I'm thinking Gottlieb "Snow Queen" in 1970...but is that correct? Or does anyone know of a game that had it earlier? I see Williams "A-Go-Go" in 1966 has a bunch of bonus inserts on the pf, but it also has a roulette wheel, so maybe it just collects through that, not when the ball drains....I haven't played one.

    #2 2 years ago

    Couldn't find a copy of A-Go-Go's instruction card. One of the flyers lists the bonus as a roulette wheel award but that's all. I'm guessing it was only for the wheel.

    Plus... if A-Go-Go's bonus was also end of ball it would be very unorthodox in that you'd have the incentive under certain circumstances to just drop the ball and get the bonus when it's high, being it has only four reels.

    #3 2 years ago

    1963 GTB Gigi

    #4 2 years ago

    Reading the instruction card for Gigi on IPDB, it looks like it awards you points/replays at the end of the game, not at the end of each ball.

    #5 2 years ago

    IPDB says Chicago Coin's Nippy, 1939, had end of ball bonus. But uhhh... is it a one ball game? And even if it is, doesn't that still count?

    #6 2 years ago

    Is Nippy a one-ball game? It doesn't have flippers, so one ball sure wouldn't be much fun, I'd think. But either way, yeah, it looks like it does have an end-of-ball bonus. Thanks @frenchmarky...didn't know about that one.

    #7 2 years ago

    There were earlier examples than Snow Queen, as noted, but Snow Queen gets the credit for establishing it as a staple in pinball scoring.

    For A-Go-Go , the bonus is not tied to end-of-ball as expressed in the original question. Some outlanes cause a spin of the wheel, which MAY result in collecting the bonus.
    .................David Marston

    1 week later
    #8 1 year ago
    Quoted from paulace:

    I'm thinking Gottlieb "Snow Queen" in 1970...but is that correct?

    For many years, well before the internet and the IPDB, Snow Queen and Snow Derby were the games given credit for starting the end-of-ball bonus. That's what guys in the hobby said to each other, me included. Looking back, I can't recall if we said that simply because the bonus ladders used for their EOBB were so visually prominent and, hey, for the ages we fellows were, those were the games we saw in our youth, so that defined our "truth". Yet, my first pinball game in 1971 was Gottlieb's Seven Seas (1960) which had an EOBB in center playfield but I never thought of it that way, probably because I was influenced by the bonus ladder at the outhole.

    One day, I realized I was confusing the bonus ladder as THE determinant of EOBB while I also knew plenty of other games made prior to 1970 gave points at the end of every ball, many of which I had played. I decided I needed to clear the cobwebs out of my thinking and organize my thoughts, primarily that the bonus ladder and the end-of-ball bonus were actually two separate things, with the bonus ladder method being only one way of providing an EOBB, not the determinant of it. So, I sat down and wrote out everything I could think to say about it, hoping to clear it up not just for myself but for anyone else in the hobby or coming into the hobby, and this explanation became the IPDB Glossary definition of End-Of-Ball Bonus:

    https://www.ipdb.org/glossary.php#End-of-Ball_Bonus

    You may notice in that Glossary definition I pay homage to those of us who had once believed that Snow Queen and Snow Derby were the first, by mentioning they began a conspicuous run of games having BONUS LADDERS, but not to be confused with end-of-ball bonus.

    #9 1 year ago

    Even then it comes down to terminology. "Points added to the score when the ball leaves the playfield. This bonus can be a fixed amount of points for each ball." What about gobble holes that score a fixed amount of points? The ball is leaving the playfield. On my Pokerface, the only way the ball can leave the playfield IS the gobble holes. I would have to include gobble hole games in this list.

    #10 1 year ago
    Quoted from frenchmarky:

    Even then it comes down to terminology. "Points added to the score when the ball leaves the playfield. This bonus can be a fixed amount of points for each ball." What about gobble holes that score a fixed amount of points? The ball is leaving the playfield. On my Pokerface, the only way the ball can leave the playfield IS the gobble holes. I would have to include gobble hole games in this list.

    From the Glossary:

    It is important to note that the end-of-ball bonus is not something that is only awarded at the outhole at the bottom of the playfield. For example, Gottlieb's 1960 'Seven Seas' has two bonus ladders, one for each of its gobble holes, and the manufacturer clearly marks this gobble hole award as "Bonus". The gobble hole on Gottlieb's 1960 'Spot-A-Card' awards a fixed 200 points.

    #11 1 year ago

    I think Snow Queen just sort of stuck as being the first because after that it became the standard (accumulate bonus during each ball, score at outhole) and it still is. The other ones are interesting asterisks.

    #12 1 year ago
    Quoted from I_P_D_B:

    So, I sat down and wrote out everything I could think to say about it, hoping to clear it up not just for myself but for anyone else in the hobby or coming into the hobby, and this explanation became the IPDB Glossary definition of End-Of-Ball Bonus:
    https://www.ipdb.org/glossary.php#End-of-Ball_Bonus
    You may notice in that Glossary definition I pay homage to those of us who had once believed that Snow Queen and Snow Derby were the first, by mentioning they began a conspicuous run of games having BONUS LADDERS, but not to be confused with end-of-ball bonus.

    Thanks for giving it that much thought...guess there's not a simple answer to the question.

    #13 1 year ago

    What about if we define it by asking, "which game had the first end of ball bonus countdown feature which awarded points earned by the player while the ball was in play"?

    #14 1 year ago

    The first two in the definition, World's Fair and Oklahoma. Wasn't labeled as a 'bonus' and only a fixed number of points. Just hard for me to lump those in with the others as 'end of ball bonus'. I mean if a game with no bonus feature has outlanes which always score 100 points, the ball is leaving the playfield and it scores a fixed number of points but I don't consider that end of ball bonus either.

    #15 1 year ago
    Quoted from frenchmarky:

    The first two in the definition, World's Fair and Oklahoma. Wasn't labeled as a 'bonus' and only a fixed number of points. Just hard for me to lump those in with the others as 'end of ball bonus'. I mean if a game with no bonus feature has outlanes which always score 100 points, the ball is leaving the playfield and it scores a fixed number of points but I don't consider that end of ball bonus either.

    Doesn't count if it's a fixed number of points. Only if the points awarded are earned by the player during the ball in play. To me, that defines "bonus".

    #16 1 year ago
    Quoted from jrpinball:

    Doesn't count if it's a fixed number of points. Only if the points awarded are earned by the player during the ball in play. To me, that defines "bonus".

    I agree - doesn't feel much like a bonus if you have no control over it or haven't earned it.

    #17 1 year ago
    Quoted from frenchmarky:

    I mean if a game with no bonus feature has outlanes which always score 100 points, the ball is leaving the playfield and it scores a fixed number of points but I don't consider that end of ball bonus either.

    Neither do I, but isn't that because the ball is still leaving the playfield and has not left the playfield?

    Quoted from jrpinball:

    Doesn't count if it's a fixed number of points. Only if the points awarded are earned by the player during the ball in play. To me, that defines "bonus".

    Gottlieb's 1962 'Tropic Isle' awards 20 points per ball, or player skill can change it to be 200 points per ball. One value is guaranteed, the other value is earned. To your thinking, would only the 200 points value be an EOBB?

    Quoted from paulace:

    I agree - doesn't feel much like a bonus if you have no control over it or haven't earned it.

    By earning it, I presume you mean your ball-in-play has caused the bonus to increment from some starting point, usually 0 points or 1000 points in EM games. In your view, that would mean a bonus ladder is required?

    "Earning" the bonus by this definition would exclude fixed-award gobble holes like the one on Gottlieb's 1960 'Spot-A-Card' which awards a fixed 200 points, while including variable-award gobble holes like that Seven Seas where player skill increases the hole value.

    Let me fiddle with this understanding of "earning" the bonus...

    What if you are a player who purposely aims his ball for the gobble hole? Aren't you "earning" the points award if you aim for the hole and get it, whether fixed-award or variable?

    Most often on gobble holes games I'll not try to lose my ball into one. However, on Gottlieb's 1957 'Falstaff', when the variable gobble hole is worth 500 points you bet I will shoot for it every time. On Seven Seas, when the bonus ladder for either gobble hole is lit for the max 300 points, yes I will go for it. I earned those points. (Didn't I?) For lesser hole values on those games I will not aim for the holes but might still fall into them at some point during play when I didn't want that. This kinda draws into question what does "earning" points mean? Do I "earn" gobble hole points whether I aimed for the hole or not? Or only when I skillfully achieve it? Or is the act of "earning" a bonus only applicable prior to scoring it, as is the case with a bonus ladder?

    #18 1 year ago
    Quoted from I_P_D_B:

    Neither do I, but isn't that because the ball is still leaving the playfield and has not left the playfield?

    Gottlieb's 1962 'Tropic Isle' awards 20 points per ball, or player skill can change it to be 200 points per ball. One value is guaranteed, the other value is earned. To your thinking, would only the 200 points value be an EOBB?

    By earning it, I presume you mean your ball-in-play has caused the bonus to increment from some starting point, usually 0 points or 1000 points in EM games. In your view, that would mean a bonus ladder is required?
    "Earning" the bonus by this definition would exclude fixed-award gobble holes like the one on Gottlieb's 1960 'Spot-A-Card' which awards a fixed 200 points, while including variable-award gobble holes like that Seven Seas where player skill increases the hole value.
    Let me fiddle with this understanding of "earning" the bonus...
    What if you are a player who purposely aims his ball for the gobble hole? Aren't you "earning" the points award if you aim for the hole and get it, whether fixed-award or variable?
    Most often on gobble holes games I'll not try to lose my ball into one. However, on Gottlieb's 1957 'Falstaff', when the variable gobble hole is worth 500 points you bet I will shoot for it every time. On Seven Seas, when the bonus ladder for either gobble hole is lit for the max 300 points, yes I will go for it. I earned those points. (Didn't I?) For lesser hole values on those games I will not aim for the holes but might still fall into them at some point during play when I didn't want that. This kinda draws into question what does "earning" points mean? Do I "earn" gobble hole points whether I aimed for the hole or not? Or only when I skillfully achieve it? Or is the act of "earning" a bonus only applicable prior to scoring it, as is the case with a bonus ladder?

    What about 2 games that I own? 1970 Gottlieb Flip a Card and 1973 Gottlieb Jumping Jack?

    On Flip a Card when the ball drains on the sides and the lane is lit it makes the Spin Unit spin and you are awarded either 50, 100, 300 or 500 points depending on which card the unit lands on. Not a skill shot but a random number of points are awarded. Not a set amount.

    On Jumping Jack, it has no Bonus Unit or Bonus ladder but a system of switches that keep the score motor running long enough to add the bonus points and you are awarded the bonus points related to how many Clown drop targets you knock down. Lots of times it’s luck from the active pop bumpers knocking a few targets down and not a skill shot.

    Where would these two games fall? Thanks.

    #19 1 year ago

    I realize this might be too subjective to add much to the conversation, but I think I might define "earning" an end-of-ball bonus as an emotional feeling that I get when I've scored points as my ball ends. For the most obvious example, in any of the bonus ladder systems, while I'm playing my ball, I can hear and see the bonus increasing as I make my shots (on purpose or by accident), and I feel excitement about the large bonus I've accumulated, and some anxiety about not wanting to lose it (tilt). There's some risk/reward involved with a good end-of-ball bonus system, I think. I haven't played machines that have a variable gobble-hole value, but I would think those would give me that same feeling, and I would certainly include those under the end-of-ball bonus definition.

    Fixed gobble-hole machines - I do get to play a "Silver" & "Slick Chick" often - don't give me that same sense of accomplishment when I drain. In fact, in fixed value gobble-hole games, I am usually trying to avoid those gobble holes, though "Slick Chick's" gobble-hole will give me a special when lit. If I were paying for games, that would be more exciting.

    SeaWolf's "Flip-a-Card" is an interesting example, since it randomizes your reward when you drain. Pinball's always a combination of luck and skill, so I don't have any problem feeling good about getting a randomly generated number of points - I'll take luck and feel good about it. And on his "Jumping Jack", I would feel like I'm earning those "bonus" points by knocking down the drops, whether accidentally or on purpose.

    It's interesting to try to pin definitions like this down.

    #20 1 year ago

    I don't consider an outlane to be an "end-of-ball" bonus. Flip-A-Card would be lumped in with A-Go-Go and other roulette-wheel games for me. This has been a good discussion, though, because it draws out the reason that Snow Queen set an important precedent, which is: the player has a different feeling if they are building up deposits in a bonus, but that bonus will definitely be awarded except if tilted away. You don't have that feeling with a random award, because you don't feel that your skill (e.g., hitting Add Bonus targets) made the deposits that you ultimately cashed in.

    Snow Queen is also interesting because there are no big payoffs on the playfield, 50 points being the top award. And there are no ways to light bumpers and holes for increased value through skillful play! You are just trying to keep the ball in play and push the orbiting light around, then get the big points when the ball is no longer in play.
    .................David Marston

    #21 1 year ago
    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    On Flip a Card when the ball drains on the sides and the lane is lit it makes the Spin Unit spin and you are awarded either 50, 100, 300 or 500 points depending on which card the unit lands on. Not a skill shot but a random number of points are awarded. Not a set amount.

    As we know, most outlanes either always score a single value -or- they score one value when insert unlit or a higher value when insert lit. (i.e. 50 points or 100 points W/L)

    I'd say Flip-A-Card has a variable outlane award, when lit, because this time the lit outlane insert does not refer to a single increased value (100 points W/L) but refers the player to a series of inserts found elsewhere on the playfield. So, a variable outlane award, not EOBB. Gottlieb's 1970 Super Score does this with a captive ball spinner (roulette wheel).

    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    On Jumping Jack, it has no Bonus Unit or Bonus ladder but a system of switches that keep the score motor running long enough to add the bonus points and you are awarded the bonus points related to how many Clown drop targets you knock down. Lots of times it’s luck from the active pop bumpers knocking a few targets down and not a skill shot.

    Also, the playfield art shows the word "Bonus" above the outhole, in an arrow pointing to the outhole, so I'd say what you got there is a variable EOBB that uses drop targets instead of bonus ladder inserts as the visual indicator. I notice I have already tagged that game and Jack-In-The-Box as having EOBB.

    Quoted from paulace:

    I realize this might be too subjective to add much to the conversation, but I think I might define "earning" an end-of-ball bonus as an emotional feeling that I get when I've scored points as my ball ends.

    All input is welcome, thank you. Keeps it interesting.

    Quoted from paulace:

    It's interesting to try to pin definitions like this down.

    Sure is. The moment one might think the right words have been found, someone will come up with a game example that makes you have to re-think how one looks at it.

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