(Topic ID: 151113)

First EM is a Grand Prix: Boy do I have questions

By MadPole

8 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 21 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by MadPole
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 8 years ago

Nothing like jumping in the deep end of the pool. My first EM is a Grand Prix and I'm going to need a g'bunch of help to get thru this.

There's plenty of issues to track down, but let's start with one or two and see if I can't learn some EM skills along the way.

I hit the start button for a one player game. The scoring wheel whirs to life and the scoring reels are reset to all zeros. So far, so good. First issue is when the 10's reel rolls over, the 100's reel doesn't advance. The 1,000's reel advances when the 100's reel rolls over. The 10,000 reel doesn't advance when the 1,000 reel rolls over. The 100,000 reel advances when the 10,000 reel rolls over. The nine switches all look like they are adjusted. I've cleaned the contacts.

The second issue is the ball count doesn't advance when the ball drains to the outhole. The bonus is scored and reset. The large red arrow doesn't alternate.

Any advice to get started will be greatly appreciated.

#2 8 years ago

Start with one problem and work through that first:

The score reels not turning - each score reel has what's called a 'carry over' switch - except for the last one. Observe the reels that won't turn the next, like the 10s through each step (from the back). Compare to the 100s which does advance the 1000s. 10s should look and operate the same as 1000s.

Then, move to the other problems. One bite at a time!

#3 8 years ago

Take a look at the schematics, around section 21, you'll see the 100pt relay coil. Tracing the wire down (W-R) you'll see it's connected to the L and R Spinner Relays, as well as, farther down, the 1-4 player "10pt du 9th pos sw" via a switch on the 10pt relay (meaning that when the 10pt is energized and the 9th position switch is closed, the 100pt will also energize. (a coil energizes whenever there's an unbroken signal from the left hand side common wire, through any combination of switches, to the coil, and then through to the right hand side common wire) To narrow down the switches further, check whether the 100s reel also doesn't advance when 10s rolls over for players 2-4. If it's consistently not working across players, then, it's probably the switch on the 10pt relay, since that's common to all four, unlike the other switches on the 9th positions and in the player unit. Once you suspect a switch, use a jumper to 'bypass' the switch (or series of switches if it's a longer chain of them controlling a coil), and see if the coil fires properly, and adjust the switch if so.

Same goes for the other score reel and the ball count. Find the coil, trace the switches across, check and/or bypass each one till it works and you find the problem

#4 8 years ago

I won't be very helpful for the tech part but all I can say is "Good choice, this game deserves to be restored !" .
Collin nailed it on his evaluation of this game (see ratings). A great Williams EM.
Realling considering adding this Williams to my lineup.

#5 8 years ago

It's more than just the nine position switches. Each score reel relay, except the 100000s, has a switch that sends power to the next score reel relay up when the game goes from 9 to 0. You need to check that in addition to the nine position switches.

#6 8 years ago

Thanks guys, I'll be putting this new info to work when I get home.

#7 8 years ago

I have a Grand Prix and it would get stuck on ball two. There is a stepper unit in the cabinet for ball count. Make sure that is stepping smoothly and resets properly.

#8 8 years ago

Thanks to you guys, I've found the problem.
The good news is I've found the problem. The bad news is I'm going to need some tips on how to proceed.

The problem has been traced back to the player unit. It's binding up and needs to be cleaned. Same thing for the ball unit.

Besides taking a sheet load of pictures, don't use white grease, WD-40 or contact cleaner... what do I need to know to tackle cleaning these stepper units?

#9 8 years ago

Www.pinrepair.com has an em repair guide with a section on steppers. Good place to start. I never got around to mine

#10 8 years ago

Pinrepair.com is a great place to start. There are also a couple youtube videos if you have trouble visualizing. For the record I haven't watched these so I'm not sure how good they are.


#11 8 years ago
Quoted from MadPole:

Besides taking a sheet load of pictures, don't use white grease, WD-40 or contact cleaner... what do I need to know to tackle cleaning these stepper units?

I clean the surface with Alcohol, and then use 400 grit sandpaper to clean the surface. I scrub the contacts to a shine and clean the surface again with Alcohol. You'll have to manually move the coil unit so you can get to all the rivets, or better yet, remove the finger disc.

From Clay's guide: "On a Williams stepper, there is a 7/16" nut which holds the finger disc in place. To remove this nut, on the opposite side of the stepper, put a small screw driver into one of the large holes in the stepper cog to prevent it from turning."

Once off, I carefully shin the bottom "fingers" of the disc with 400 grit to make sure the contact is solid.

A lot of people apply a thin (very thin) layer of Super Lube to help the steppers move easily.

http://www.amazon.com/Super-Lube-21030-Synthetic-Grease/dp/B000XBH9HI/ref=sr_1_1

Follow Clay's guide (2D):
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#top

#12 8 years ago

Disassembled, cleaned, reassembled and I'll be damned it works. Scoring reels now roll over the next higher feel like they should. Bball stepper unit is next.

#13 8 years ago

Great job! Keep it up and you'll have it 100% in no time.

#14 8 years ago

UPDATE:
I cleaned up the Ball Stepper Unit. It advances and resets as it should when i jump the coils to ground. The problem is, the game doesn't advance to the next ball when the ball drains. The bonus is added to the score. The bonus is reset. The ball is kicked out to the shooter lane, but the game remains on Ball 1.

I've browsed thru the schematics, but can't figure out where I need to start tracing the problem.

Can somebody summarize what happens when the ball drains and what paths I need to start tracing on the schematics?

Thanks again for the help.

#15 8 years ago

Did you make sure all the wiper blades are making contact with stepper unit? You could also check that there isn't some "play" in the unit and the blades can be pulled away from the surface when it rotates.
You could also try cleaning the blades' contacts with some sandpaper.

#16 8 years ago

For any problem, I will look for a coil that I think will be involved with the problem. In this case, a likely suspect would be the ball count unit. I am not looking at a Grand Prix schematic right now, but I believe that you would like to examine the switches in the circuit for the Ball Count Step Up Coil. Follow the ladder backwards, checking each switch along the way.

#17 8 years ago

Hi Madpole +
You are doing great - a pleasure to read this topic.

About "Not advancing to next ball": Can You start a TWO-player-game ? And - at the end of Player-1-Ball-1: Does the pin step to "Player-2-Ball-1" ? AAA = Yes, BBB = No.

Great, ipdb has a schema: http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1072 -> look at schema-6-from-the-middle-to-the-right: See ?

Wire-Yellow -> "Switch on Outhole-Relay" -> "Switch on Extraball-Relay" -> "Switch on Ball-Index-Relay" -> then a fork: Upwards is for "Step to next Ball", further to the right is for "Step to next Player".
When You have "BBB": Check the switches on Outhole-Relay, Extraball-Relay, Ball-Index-Relay (when You make the first points: this relay will start pulling and KEEP-ON pulling - means: when the pin wants to step to next ball / next player: THIS relay MUST be pulling).
When Yo have "AAA": The three (written just above) switches / relays are good -> we then must look at the "forked-off UPWARDS wiring" -> the "communication "Player-Unit <-> Coin-Unit -> Ball-Count-Unit Step-UP".
Greetings Rolf

#18 8 years ago

Neither the Ball Advance nor Player Advance were working. I found a common path for the two relays and started jumping switches. It ended up being dirty contacts on the Extra Ball Index relay. They're normally closed so I guess dirt and carbon buildup got to the point the switch acted as open.

Cleaned the contacts with a flex stone and now the ball count advances and the player advances as they should.

Thanks for all the help. It's gonna take a while to get into the full EM mindset, but I'm closer than I was yesterday.

2 weeks later
#19 8 years ago

I'm down to my last issue.
The bonus does not alternate between the left and right bonus. It should switch from left to right or from right to left after a ball drains. Mine is stuck on the left bonus.
Manually engaging the alternating relay will count down the right bonus when the outhole switch is activated.

I've scanned over the schematics and can't seem to figure out how the alternating relay gets activated.
Can somebody explain to me how the alternating relay gets energized?

Thanks in advance for the help.

#20 8 years ago

Found it!
One of the wipers on the ball unit energizes the alternating relay.
The wiper for the ball count was making contact (just barely), but the alternating wiper wasn't.
I'm just starting to get the hang of troubleshooting an EM, but have a long way to go.

#21 8 years ago

AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH

I fixed what i thought was my last issue and buttoned up the game. Very excited to play my first game with everything working, but...

None of the kickout saucers or out hole register.

Damn, Damn Damn.

I know it must be something in common, but I haven't been able to figure it out yet.

If anybody has any ideas, please share them.

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