(Topic ID: 337759)

First EM Game, 1964 Wing Ding, Need Guidance on Repairing

By YourGuyBri

10 months ago


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Wingwing Schematics.pdf (PDF preview)
There are 54 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 10 months ago

Hi everyone,

This is my first EM machine, I purchased it non-running. Though cleaning I was able to get it to turn on. I cleaned the jones plugs, stepper unit, and I cleaned most of the switches with rubbing alcohol. The game resets the score reel to 0 and activates a bunch of relays after starting, the hold relay remains on as it should, but nothing else is activated. No flippers, roll-overs or bumpers. However, when I manually activate a relay (shown in video) everything works, except the score motor is stuck on and constantly giving me 100 points. I check the playfield switches too many times to count and nothing appears stuck. No disconnected wires, or wires that are touching where they shouldn't. I feel like there are two things happening here, 1. that relay should be coming on when I start the game and 2. it shouldn't be stuck on 100 pts.

I have the schematics, but am still learning how to read them. I've also checked all of the relays for continuity and they all buzz out. I've basically gone though all of Pinrepair.com and performed everything he mentions except for adjusting/messing with the switches and score motor as that isn't recommended for noobs. Any ideas what to check and do next?

Video of machine: https://photos.app.goo.gl/FSAwWU5mK9gkuqJ86

Thanks!

Wingwing Schematics.pdfWingwing Schematics.pdf
#2 10 months ago

So if you put the reels to say 1111 and press the start button, it resets the reels and the score motor stops running?

#3 10 months ago

A clue in the video shows the bonus ball count unit advancing. A hole relay or a score 100 and advance bonus relay is probably stuck closed by either a closed hole switch or the relay hold circuit switch is closed on the relay.

#4 10 months ago

One technique that is sometimes helpful is to watch what relays de-energize when you turn the machine off; take a slo-mo video if needed to spot them.

#5 10 months ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

So if you put the reels to say 1111 and press the start button, it resets the reels and the score motor stops running?

dr_nybble Well, it resets them all but then gives 100. and stops running.

#6 10 months ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

One technique that is sometimes helpful is to watch what relays de-energize when you turn the machine off; take a slo-mo video if needed to spot them.

The only thing energized when the machine is on is the hold relay.

#7 10 months ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

A clue in the video shows the bonus ball count unit advancing. A hole relay or a score 100 and advance bonus relay is probably stuck closed by either a closed hole switch or the relay hold circuit switch is closed on the relay.

When you say closed hole switch, would that be where the ball kicks out of? The advancing relay energizes and then de-energizes when I hold that one relay shown in the video.

#8 10 months ago

Ok find the advancing relay on the schematic and look what switches activate it and check them out.

#9 10 months ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Ok find the advancing relay on the schematic and look what switches activate it and check them out.

Here is where the first mention of advanced relay is in the schematics, I have a limited understanding of the schematics but I know some. There's also a lot of advanced unit, but I believe that is different?

adv relay (resized).pngadv relay (resized).png
#10 10 months ago

Just throwing in the tired and seemingly useless advice:

Have you attempted to do this with a ball in the trough? I’m not familiar with these 60s machines, however, these games are usually designed to activate only when a ball is in the trough ready to be served.

It certainly seems like there is an issue with the bonus count being stuck somehow. But you can never underestimate the power of “make sure there’s a ball in it”

It’s a phrase just as powerful as “have you checked the fuses with a meter”! Live by it!

#11 10 months ago

Check the advance relay for normally open switches that are closed when they shouldn’t be. Also inspect switch wire connections for shorts.

#12 10 months ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

Just throwing in the tired and seemingly useless advice:
Have you attempted to do this with a ball in the trough? I’m not familiar with these 60s machines, however, these games are usually designed to activate only when a ball is in the trough ready to be served.
It certainly seems like there is an issue with the bonus count being stuck somehow. But you can never underestimate the power of “make sure there’s a ball in it”
It’s a phrase just as powerful as “have you checked the fuses with a meter”! Live by it!

Isochronic_Frost So this actually worked! I didn't have a ball in and when I put one it it worked....but then it went back to not starting again. It seemed to have solved whatever that random 100 points was when I hold that relay down. Here is a new video of what it is doing now. https://photos.app.goo.gl/yAT9aBhvi759uxbf9

#13 10 months ago

Also, does anyone know how many balls to keep in the game at a time? Is it typically just 1 for EM games?

#14 10 months ago

Normally 5 balls.

#15 10 months ago
Quoted from ArgosySK:

Normally 5 balls.

Thanks, I wonder if that is the issue, I'll go give that a shot now.

#16 10 months ago

Shoot having 5 balls in the machine did not help.

#17 10 months ago
Quoted from ArgosySK:

Normally 5 balls.

No. Only one for add-a-ball games!

#18 10 months ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

No. Only one for add-a-ball games!

Awesome! Thank you.

Now I just need to troubleshoot getting it to start the game properly

#19 10 months ago

Anyone have an idea on what to test to get this game to run? I cannot figure it out. It resets, the score reel resets, it has a ball in it, put's it into play, but thats it. After that, no flippers or targets work.

#20 10 months ago
Quoted from YourGuyBri:

Anyone have an idea on what to test to get this game to run? I cannot figure it out. It resets, the score reel resets, it has a ball in it, put's it into play, but thats it. After that, no flippers or targets work.

So you're basically saying that there's no power to the playfield?

#21 10 months ago

It's difficult to see on the schematic you provided. I'd look at the game relay, tilt relay, and game over relay. Engage/disengage them manually. Clean the contact pads with an ignition file or light sand paper. Check that each switch on those relays changes state when you manually work the relays. You may have a misadjusted switch that cuts power to the playfield. When a switch closes, the longer blade will push the shorter blade that it contacts slightly, showing that it is making good contact.

#22 10 months ago

I'll need to see a high quality scan of the schematic from (for example) Staples ($2), Fedex ($6), or Office Depot

#23 10 months ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

So you're basically saying that there's no power to the playfield?

GI has power, but nothing else. As seen in one of the videos above, when I manually activate a relay (not sure which one it is, the label has fallen off) everything works fine.

#24 10 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

I'll need to see a high quality scan of the schematic from (for example) Staples ($2), Fedex ($6), or Office Depot

I'll try to take it to staples tomorrow, hopefully they don't ruin it, it's pretty delicate.

#25 10 months ago
Quoted from YourGuyBri:

(not sure which one it is, the label has fallen off)

You could look at the color of the wires going to the coil, then match with the wires shown on the schematic.

#26 10 months ago

The schematic in post#1 is legible when expanded. After examining the schematic and your video I’ve determined that the trough rollover that is being pushed is trying to pulse the tilt relay latch coil. When this coil pulls in the playfield power is restored, and the score motor is running because of a stuck closed playfield switch or the reset relay didn’t switch over power to the playfield. Once you release the rollover the score motor stops because the tilt relay is not latching, or it’s trip coil is pulling in and not let it relatch. Also the tilt latch coil fires during the reset cycle. Inspect why the tilt relay isn’t latching.
The way the trough switches are set up my guess that this is a 2 ball in trough machine.

#27 10 months ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

The schematic in post#1 is legible when expanded. After examining the schematic and your video I’ve determined that the trough rollover that is being pushed is trying to pulse the tilt relay latch coil. When this coil pulls in the playfield power is restored, and the score motor is running because of a stuck closed playfield switch or the reset relay didn’t switch over power to the playfield. Once you release the rollover the score motor stops because the tilt relay is not latching, or it’s trip coil is pulling in and not let it relatch. Also the tilt latch coil fires during the reset cycle. Inspect why the tilt relay isn’t latching.
The way the trough switches are set up my guess that this is a 2 ball in trough machine.

I tried putting 2 balls in the trough but it opens up and lets them both through. I will take a look at the tilt relay latch, need to figure out where that is first...

#28 10 months ago

Releasing of both balls to start is normal. After that alternate balls will be captured and released in the trough.
Can you post a pic of the mechanical board to help identify tilt relay.

#29 10 months ago

The tilt relay is a trip/latch type so one on the bottom board (probably) with two relays -- an M-29-1000 (latch) and M-29-1000 (trip).

#30 10 months ago

The tilt relay latch coil should have a yellow-black and a black wires connected to it.

#31 10 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

I'll need to see a high quality scan of the schematic from (for example) Staples ($2), Fedex ($6), or Office Depot

See attached link for full quality schematic:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HT9xmLlvDA4M7VXeg0DUbp0NS74ngH4E/view?usp=drivesdk

#32 10 months ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Releasing of both balls to start is normal. After that alternate balls will be captured and released in the trough.
Can you post a pic of the mechanical board to help identify tilt relay.

Yes, see below!

PXL_20230531_233223045 (resized).jpgPXL_20230531_233223045 (resized).jpgScreenshot_20230606-172203 (resized).pngScreenshot_20230606-172203 (resized).png
#33 10 months ago

The tilt relay is one of the 2 coil relays in between the transformer and the score motor.

#34 10 months ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

The tilt relay is one of the 2 coil relays in between the transformer and the score motor.

Got it, the wires and switch's look fine on both though so I'm not sure what to look for.

#35 10 months ago

Is the TILT light on in the backglass? Trying to see if it is being latched, as that is required to get power to some of the coils.

Same with game over.

#36 10 months ago

You want to check the manual operation of latching hold and trip coil releasing of the relay.
Watch the relay during reset of the machine to check if it latches also.

#37 10 months ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

Is the TILT light on in the backglass?

And make sure you have a known-good bulb in the socket.

#38 10 months ago
Quoted from YourGuyBri:

when I manually activate a relay (shown in video) everything works, except ...

Quoted from YourGuyBri:

1. that relay should be coming on when I start the game

The relay you're manually activating is probably the Tilt relay. Maybe you can tell by wire color, or maybe you can get another Wing Ding owner to post pictures of the original relay labels. In any case, ignore the highlights I made for the Game Over relay, and here's the circuit that latches the Tilt relay:

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#39 10 months ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

Is the TILT light on in the backglass? Trying to see if it is being latched, as that is required to get power to some of the coils.
Same with game over.

dr_nybble Yes the Tilt light comes on and stays on after reset.

#40 10 months ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

You want to check the manual operation of latching hold and trip coil releasing of the relay.
Watch the relay during reset of the machine to check if it latches also.

pinballdaveh I watched it when starting the game, appears to activate and then deactivate during reset. I can take a video if needed.

#41 10 months ago
Quoted from YourGuyBri:

pinballdaveh I watched it when starting the game, appears to activate and then deactivate during reset. I can take a video if needed.

Slow motion video from your phone can be very helpful. Sounds like the tilt relay is latching but then immediately tripping -- a video would be helpful to confirm that.

#42 10 months ago

On the tilt relay find the switch with the yellow-red wire and a jumper going to the trip coil.
Insert a piece of paper in between this switch to keep it from closing and retest the reset cycle.
Remove paper and see if the trip coil pulls in immediately.

#43 10 months ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:Slow motion video from your phone can be very helpful. Sounds like the tilt relay is latching but then immediately tripping -- a video would be helpful to confirm that.

Here is a slow mo video and up close of the relays:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/qxc8R4Q2k3T3PBtaA

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YkLM4R5BNWifewHv5

#44 10 months ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

On the tilt relay find the switch with the yellow-red wire and a jumper going to the trip coil.
Insert a piece of paper in between this switch to keep it from closing and retest the reset cycle.
Remove paper and see if the trip coil pulls in immediately.

pinballdaveh I gave this a shot and nothing happened.

#45 10 months ago

In your 2nd video, when the relay closest to the transformer pulls in its latch coil, it doesn’t latch because the plastic part of the latch is worn down allowing trip armature plate to slide away and not latch without the trip coil pulling in.
The other latching relay isn’t adjusted correctly.
The trip armature plate should be pushing downward more on the latch plate, changing the state of the switches, and releasing when tripped.
Adjust trip coil assembly for proper operation.

#46 10 months ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

In your 2nd video, when the relay closest to the transformer pulls in its latch coil, it doesn’t latch because the plastic part of the latch is worn down allowing trip armature plate to slide away and not latch without the trip coil pulling in.
The other latching relay isn’t adjusted correctly.
The trip armature plate should be pushing downward more on the latch plate, changing the state of the switches, and releasing when tripped.
Adjust trip coil assembly for proper operation.

pinballdaveh

So the trip armature plate on the one closest to the transformer is supposed to latch and stay on? I'm unsure how to adjust these, it doesn't seem like they have adjustments on them.

#47 10 months ago

Good basic overview of Relays, Coils, and Switches

#48 10 months ago

To adjust latching relays:
Loosen 2 trip coil housing screws to where the housing can slightly move.
Manually push in on the latching armature plastic ladder until about it reaches about 80 % of its maximum travel.
Move the trip housing so that the trip armature is in its latched position with the other armature.
Tighten down trip housing screws.
Release pressure from latching armature.
Latching armature should stay in latched position with little movement.
Manually inspect latch trip operations
Check or change switch gaps for proper latch and trip positions.

#49 10 months ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

To adjust latching relays:
Loosen 2 trip coil housing screws to where the housing can slightly move.
Manually push in on the latching armature plastic ladder until about it reaches about 80 % of its maximum travel.
Move the trip housing so that the trip armature is in its latched position with the other armature.
Tighten down trip housing screws.
Release pressure from latching armature.
Latching armature should stay in latched position with little movement.
Manually inspect latch trip operations
Check or change switch gaps for proper latch and trip positions.

pinballdaveh

Thank you!! Sorry, I'm a visual learner!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/unfttYrCyvAfw9bS6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Hy9tVKbvPMYvnC7B8

https://photos.app.goo.gl/NYxyhiLrAxdfZpN7A

#50 10 months ago

In the 1st video, latch position is A.

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