Firepower only turns on half the time? *now w/ VIDEO*

My Firepower currently has two issues:

In about 1 out of 5 times, Firepower will start a game automatically when you turn it on. The start switch is not closed mechanically and it doesn't show up in switch test as closed.

The game often shuts down mid game but I can't associate it to a coil firing. It's happened when I'm about to shoot the ball with the plunger and when the ball is nowhere near a switch or coil. The displays go blank, coils go dead, but GI is on and sound is still going as though nothing happened. The game does make a noise that sounds like something is being energized in the cabinet upon boot up. This only happens if the game has been of for a period of time, then turned on (10 or more minutes) Speaker maybe? Occurs for about 2 seconds then shuts off...not sure if this is normal.

I picked this up as a project that was having issues keeping memory and booting. I replaced the 40 pin, all header pins on the CPU/MPU, new lamp resistors, and did the combo rom mod. I haven't touched the power supply board yet. All insert lights, displays, and coils are working during game play and in test mode. The sounds appear to be working fine.

Where do I begin?

#2 9 years ago

MWS

mwsmith

Pinside member

York, PA

10y 49,400 222 8

Sounds like it's time to bullet proof that power supply.

#3 9 years ago

CRD

chad

Game Guy

11y 140K 15,206 9 4

Yes, that 40 pinner is a problem child. Lot'sa reading material here on the level six rebuilds.

#4 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

Quoted from chad:
Yes, that 40 pinner is a problem child. Lot'sa reading material here on the level six rebuilds.

I have already rebuilt the 40 pin male/female and replaced all headers on the CPU/Driver boards. I'll start with the power supply next. I can tell there is at least one hack where someone has two caps in parallel

Love this game!

#5 9 years ago

TAL

Tallon

Pinside member

Schofield, WI

10y 66,550 1,246 15

Just redid one. Rebuild the power supply according to VID and that will are sure your getting clean power to MPU and stops the resets. I did all the caps throughout so I can't tell you what ones specifically fix it. While your doing the power, go ahead and drop the power to the displays to 92 using VID's instructions. You can get the power Re-cap kit from Great Plains Electronics. Go ahead and order the sound card caps right away too. Also there is a 100mdf 10v cap on the MPU and Solenoid board so grab 2 of these. That covers the power and caps, change out the burn resistors or change to MOSFET and you pretty much done. Putting fuses in the bridge rectifiers is a must if it's not already done. I know it sounds like a lot but it's like $28 in parts and it will play like a dream after!

#6 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

Good list, thanks! I did the added fuses about a week ago as s well as replacing the 5W resistors for the lamps. I just did the GPE PS rebuild on my Space Shuttle, so shouldn't be too bad.

2 weeks later

#7 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

I replaced the caps on my PS board. Sometimes my game will turn on and play fine. Other times, only the GI comes on with no displays. I'm guessing the CPU isn't booting up? I'm not sure why sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I replaced the 40 pin (male/female), all header pins on the CPU/MPU, new lamp resistors, and did the combo rom mod.

Where to look next?

#8 9 years ago

QB3

Razor

Inactive member

North Bay, ON

10y 26,400 247

Maybe the 5 V regulator on the power supply?

#9 9 years ago

GEO

Geocab

Pinside+ Frequent

Cleveland, OH

11y 78,550 2,387 8

Recheck your soldering. Even though you replaced everything, maybe a spot or two didn't get the right amount? Have you replaced all connectors too when you did the headers?

Another thing that I recently had an issue with, my trough kick over thing kept firing on its own as if I drained a ball, and sometimes the game would tilt for no reason. Then I lost some switches. The problem ended up being the connectors from the head to the playfield. The ones you take apart when you remove the playfield. A simple reseat fixed all issues.

#10 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

I have not yet replaced the connectors. I'll start with 1J2 on the CPU and 3J6 on the PS board. If there are others that are crucial for the CPU to boot consistently, let me know. Thanks for the help. I'll see where my voltages are at as well.

#11 9 years ago

TAL

Tallon

Pinside member

Schofield, WI

10y 66,550 1,246 15

The 5V to the MPU is where I would be looking. Sounds like you might be getting some fluctuation in the 5V circuit going to the MPU. If you recapped everything on the Power board, check your grounds and make sure your getting a solid connection. Also read Vid's guide to bulletproofing the system 3-7

#12 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

With the game in attract mode (game booted properly) I'm getting the following voltages on the CPU board:

TP1 = 11.40 vDC
TP2 = 3.93 vDC
TP3 = 3.96 vDC
TP4 = 4.87 vDC
TP5 = 4.90 vDC
TP6 = 2.45 vDC
TP7 = 4.64 vDC
TP8 = 4.97 vDC
TP9 = 5.08 vDC

If I measure the wires at the 1J2 connector, I get the following voltages:

Pin 9 = 11.64 vDC
Pin 6 = 5.11 vDC
Pin 5 = 5.11 vDC
Pin 4 = 5.11 vDC

I'll replace 1J2 connector and see where that leads.

#13 9 years ago

DAD

Daddy-o

Inactive member

I have a Gorgar that has the exact same issue. With the machine off, do you have 4.5v @ pin 22 on the 5101 ram? When it finally boots up, does it remember your settings?

#14 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

Quoted from Daddy-o:
I have a Gorgar that has the exact same issue. With the machine off, do you have 4.5v @ pin 22 on the 5101 ram? When it finally boots up, does it remember your settings?

It measures 4.39 vDC with the game off. I do have a 4AA battery pack with a 1N4004 diode in the 4th battery position. Sometimes the game comes up with the audit message, but if I turn the game off and on, it's fine (which is weird because the coin door is closed). It does remember the settings because Free Play still works.

#15 9 years ago

DAD

Daddy-o

Inactive member

That is odd. So when it boots, you have credits (not 00) and it shows your high score?

#16 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

Quoted from Daddy-o:
That is odd. So when it boots, you have credits (not 00) and it shows your high score?

My display shows 00 for credits since the game is on free play. If your game has credits on it when you set the game to free play, those credits will remain, since the game does not count down per game played. Yes, the high score is kept when I turn on the game.

I replaced connector 1J2 tonight and played a few games. I still need to play it more to give it the green light, but so far, so good.

#17 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

I turned the game on this morning and after 3 seconds of attract mode, the game shut off (everything off but GI). Basically the same thing as if you were to remove 1J2 with the game running. I still need to replace the connector on the power supply board that goes to 1J2.

#18 9 years ago

GEO

Geocab

Pinside+ Frequent

Cleveland, OH

11y 78,550 2,387 8

Damn, I thought you had it.

My Firepower did the same thing when I first had it. I finally gave up and sent my boards to Barakandl and he fixed me up. My boards were previously hacked up so I knew they were above anything I could do as a novice. Usual issues were fixed, headers, cold solder joints, etc. But, now it's stable.

I'm sure you'll get it narrowed down.

#19 9 years ago

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

OP
Quoted from midcoastsurf:
I turned the game on this morning and after 3 seconds of attract mode, the game shut off (everything off but GI).

With only the GI working, what were the voltages on the CPU board?

#20 9 years ago

DAD

Daddy-o

Inactive member

You tested the 5101 for positive, is there a spot on the 5101 to test for negative?

#21 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

Quoted from vid1900:
With only the GI working, what were the voltages on the CPU board?

I replaced the female/male connector at 3J6 on the power supply board with no change.

Here are the measurements on the CPU with only the GI working...

TP1 = 11.50 vDC measures the same at pin 6 on 3J6
TP2 = 3.93 vDC
TP3 = 3.97 vDC coin door closed
TP4 = 0.06 vDC
TP5 = 4.91 vDC
TP6 = 2.46 vDC
TP7 = 4.61 vDC
TP8 = 4.99 vDC
TP9 = 5.10 vDC measures the same at pins 7-10 on 3J6

It seems like a the voltage to the MPU drops just enough for the game to not boot. I'll be playing a game and out of nowhere the game just shuts off. Most of the time, if I turn the game off and back on, the game will turn on and I can start a game.

After a couple of games, I turned the game off. I turned the game back on and the high score was reset to 50,000. The voltage at 5101 measures 4.60 vDC. The Free Play setting was saved, but the high score changed...not sure how the game only remembers some of the settings.

#22 9 years ago

DAD

Daddy-o

Inactive member

My Gorgar did the same thing yesterday. It would not start for about 20 tries. Then it came up after I fiddled with the 5101 and another ram or rom?? that was a little higher on the board . It finally came up remembering # of balls per player, but high score was lost. I will try to take a pic. of what I jiggled after work.

#23 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

Quoted from Daddy-o:
My Gorgar did the same thing yesterday. It would not start for about 20 tries. Then it came up after I fiddled with the 5101 and another ram or rom?? that was a little higher on the board . It finally came up remembering # of balls per player, but high score was lost. I will try to take a pic. of what I jiggled after work.

Weird. If someone can confirm that my voltages are OK on the CPU that would be great. I'll replace the big diodes on the power supply (6A4) this coming week just to be safe.

Thanks!

#24 9 years ago

DAD

Daddy-o

Inactive member

I keep getting "hung up " on the negative side of this issue. When I am measuring the battery pack supply at pin 22 on the 5101, I get just under 5 (same as yours), but I am running my negative lead from the battery pack (same as you?). What if the problem is not the positive but the negative? (It needs both?) I don't understand my schematic enough to know which pin on the 5101 carries the negative from the batteries. Any idea?
Mark

#25 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

Here are pics of my CPU board and PS board. The blue wire is the + wire coming off my battery back and the yellow wire is the - wire coming of my battery pack. I measure 4.60vDC at the top left pin of 5101 with the game off. I do have a 1n4004 diode installed in the 4th position of my battery pack. Hopefully the pros will chime in soon.

CPU board.JPG

PS board-612.JPG

#26 9 years ago

DAD

Daddy-o

Inactive member

Well Gorgar wont boot. I measured 3.7-3.9 volts from pin 8 to pin 22
5101.pdf

#27 9 years ago

DAD

Daddy-o

Inactive member

I popped this out and back in, Machine booted up. Hope this helps yours

photo (17).JPG

#28 9 years ago

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Daddy-o:
I popped this out and back in, Machine booted up. Hope this helps yours

photo (17).JPG 224 KB

So that tells you that your socket needs to be replaced.

The wipers are fatigued, and can no longer hold the chip at the proper tension.

#29 9 years ago

DAD

Daddy-o

Inactive member

Quoted from vid1900:
So that tells you that your socket needs to be replaced.
The wipers are fatigued, and can no longer hold the chip at the proper tension.

Thanks! I guess a handful of finish nails jammed into the sockets and a piece bubble gum to hold them in would be frowned upon?

#30 9 years ago

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Daddy-o:
Thanks! I guess a handful of finish nails jammed into the sockets and a piece bubble gum to hold them in would be frowned upon?

I know a few sellers who would ship it like that.

#31 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

captured the problem on video. Hope this helps. In the video the game shut off when I hit the right flipper. But the game has also shut off when the game is nowhere near a switch or coil firing (ie. rolling up the shooter lane)

#32 9 years ago

DAD

Daddy-o

Inactive member

Strange, you still have sound when it shuts down?. And the blue and red arcs about midfield are popping when you turn it on? They are not GI lights are they?

#33 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

Quoted from Daddy-o:
Strange, you still have sound when it shuts down?. And the blue and red arcs about midfield are popping when you turn it on? They are not GI lights are they?

Yes, I always have sounds playing if a game has been started and the game turns off. I believe they run on two different power circuits? Don't pay too much attention to my insert lighting, I need to swap in non-ghosting LED's. I just put in what I had lying around

#34 9 years ago

SED

sed6

Inactive member

Oklahoma City, OK

10y 67,800 775 2 7

Quoted from vid1900:
So that tells you that your socket needs to be replaced.
The wipers are fatigued, and can no longer hold the chip at the proper tension.

A simpler fix on my game was cleaning the legs on the chips and reinserting them. That resolved several weird issues on my old pin. You can use a hard (gray) eraser or a fiberglass pencil or the finishing pad on a four way fingernail buffer. That said I did replace a socket or two as well.

Also check for a good ground on your coo door. Had that fix a troublesome problem once.

#35 9 years ago

KLB

kbliznick

Did you replace all of the sockets on the MPU board? I would do that next if you haven't done so already. Also maybe new flipper roms, looks like you have a new combo rom but still have both of the old flipper roms.

#36 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

Quoted from kbliznick:
Did you replace all of the sockets on the MPU board? I would do that next if you haven't done so already. Also maybe new flipper roms, looks like you have a new combo rom but still have both of the old flipper roms.

Kris, I have highlighted the sockets that were replaced. I also replaced the top left connector. I put blue question marks next to socketed chips that I have not replaced. Could these be the problem?

Thanks

MPU board.jpg

#37 9 years ago

KLB

kbliznick

yes, definitely replace the socket on the CPU chip at IC1 as it can cause the lock up. IC19 was not usually socketed on system 6 boards so it's already likely replaced. I would inspect that socket just to be sure as usually I find the problem half the time is someone else's previous work.

I am curious as to what the LED's on the CPU board are doing when the game is locked up. You can press the test button on the left side of the MPU to see what happens.

#38 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

I replaced the sockets at IC1 and IC19. I played the game for 45 minutes last night without any issues. I played two games tonight and the game shut off during the second game. I turned the game off and back on and the game booted up fine. I have tested continuity on all of my work and everything pans out ok.

The two flipper roms are original. How likely is it that this could be the problem? Are these voltages in the acceptable range?

Here are the measurements on the CPU with only the GI working...

#39 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

If the machine is not booting and I briefly ground TP8 on the CPU, the game boots right up. Any ideas on why or what needs to be fixed? All of the boards are securely screwed down.

#40 9 years ago

KLB

kbliznick

TP8 is the reset and grounding it is the equivalent of turning the game off and back on.

If the board was failing to boot upon turn on and only turned on after flicking the power twice I would say replace the cap at C23 in the reset section, but I don't think that applies here. Check all the legs on the non socketed chips and see if any have tarnished legs. I was having a problem on a system 7 board intermittently booting and locking up and after checking out the normal suspects and the clock and IRQ and memory protect and everything else I was kind of out of ideas and noticed the chip above the processor (a 74LS245) had very tarnished legs. Replacing that fixed the board.

Blanking circuit going bad would cause board to crash or not boot. 3 main parts to that are the 555 chip at IC23, a 4403 transistor at Q1, and a 1 uf cap at C31.

#41 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

Quoted from kbliznick:
TP8 is the reset and grounding it is the equivalent of turning the game off and back on.

Any ideas of what to look at next?

#42 9 years ago

KLB

kbliznick

sorry, those locations I gave you for the blanking circuit are system 7 designations, not sure if they are in the same locations on system 6.

looked them up and blanking is a

556 chip at IC23
a 4403 transistor at Q5
and the 1 uf capacitor is still at C31

#43 9 years ago

KLB

kbliznick

otherwise do the other things I already recommended. Swap out the 2 flipper eproms, maybe swap out the 5101 ram.

#44 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

Quoted from kbliznick:
otherwise do the other things I already recommended. Swap out the 2 flipper eproms, maybe swap out the 5101 ram.

Thanks Kris...i'll look into those things

1 week later

#45 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

Quoted from kbliznick:
otherwise do the other things I already recommended. Swap out the 2 flipper eproms, maybe swap out the 5101 ram.

Both flipper roms and 5101 have been swapped out and the problem persists with no change. Still ned to replace the following based on your reco:

556 chip at IC23
a 4403 transistor at Q5
and the 1 uf capacitor is still at C31

The voltages that I measured coming into the MPU, are they within range? I just want to make sure that the power supply board can be taken off the "questionable" list.

Thanks

#46 9 years ago

KLB

kbliznick

power supply really only consists of 3 parts. The regulator, cap and diodes. Looks like you replaced the cap. You really should replace the diodes with some 6amp diodes if you haven't already. That only leaves the regulator. You can swap this to fully take it off the questionable list. Believe it's a 7805.

1 week later

#47 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf

The two power diodes have been replaced on the power supply with no change. Still needed:

556 chip at IC23
a 4403 transistor at Q5
and the 1 uf capacitor is still at C31

Game now for sale for $400.

#48 9 years ago

KLB

kbliznick

Just fixed a Black Knight yesterday. It was randomly shutting down after about 30 minutes of being on.

First did the power supply cap/diodes, the battery and the 40 pin interconnect. It still reset, so then I replaced the 4 eprom sockets and that fixed it. Was going to replace the 5101 socket and all 4 eproms after that if it was still resetting.

#49 9 years ago

LIT

midcoastsurf