Firepower Machine

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-bulletproofing-williams-system-6

So it looks like the issue I'm having right now is when I power it up sometimes I get the normal start up but it won't register quarters. Other times it turns on and in the high score box is random numbers. Any ideas where I should start?

#4 10 years ago

BOY

vid1900

Pinside+ Member

Sana'a

12y 164K 40,186 18

Batteries all corroded?

#5 10 years ago

DAJ

Pafasa

Inactive member

Oakland, NE

12y 58,900 3,955 1

Are you sure they are random numbers? Keep track of the numbers you see. It may be that they are always the same. If so, it is likely booting to audit mode. There are many reasons for this behavior. Dead batteries, corroded batteries. Poor connections between the two main boards in the backbox. Etc. vid1900 has a great thread on bulletproofing your system six circuit boards.

#6 10 years ago

???

jxm1092

Inactive member

http://pinball.flippers.info/system6repairpart4.asp#scanbe

Ok so the code that comes up reads 1497 2 in the upper left led display. I ran through some troubleshooting at the link I attached below and it would seem that it is either a driver board problem or a connection between the boards since i got the two LED flashes after pressin the diagnostic button. I removed an reconnected all connectors with no luck.

I had also replaced the batteries on the board already and the holders for the batteries showed no signs of corrosion. Should I just replace the driver board or is there more I can attempt to troubleshoot on this? Is there a replacement board of any sorts that combines the two into somethig more reliable?

Link to troubleshooting site

#7 10 years ago

???

jxm1092

Inactive member

Now of course after I just posted that I let it sit for a few minutes, cycled power and it came on in attract mode. However, neither the bypass switch that the precious owner installed, or actual quarters were registering with the machine so I could play it. I cycled power two more times and the previous code I had came back again. Also does the position of the dip switches on the MPU board matter?

Sorry for the delayed updates I only get late nights to work on this with a 3 month old an 1 1/2 he old dictating my daily schedule lol.

#8 10 years ago

DUG

wiredoug

Pinside member

Melbourne

11y 79,050 2,741 18

http://rottendog.us/mpu327.htm maybe?

#9 10 years ago

BOY

vid1900

Pinside+ Member

Sana'a

12y 164K 40,186 18

Rule one: Don't start messing with the DIP switches. They are old and should not be messed with.

Rule two: Replace 40 pin interconnect: http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-bulletproofing-williams-system-6

#10 10 years ago

DAJ

Pafasa

Inactive member

Oakland, NE

12y 58,900 3,955 1

I have a rottendog mpu327 board on my firepower right now. I think it is a wonderful upgrade if you have the $300+. It replaces both the control boards in the backbox. All that is left after that is the sound board in the upper right corner and the power supply on the right below the sound board. The powersupply could be part of your issue also. If your board is not damaged by battery corrosion, you should be able to repair your existing boards much cheaper than buying a new mpu327. Power supply included.

What is the "bypass" switch you talked about. This may be part of your issue. Can you post a pic?

#11 10 years ago

???

jxm1092

Inactive member

Quoted from vid1900:
Rule one: Don't start messing with the DIP switches. They are old and should not be messed with.
Rule two: Replace 40 pin interconnect: http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-bulletproofing-williams-system-6

I haven't messed with the dip switches but I noticed one of them was on. Number 6 in the top set of switches I believe? I will double check tonight. Also thank you for that awesome write up I'm going to get to work on replacing the headers and hopefully if I get her up and running I can then bulletproof it.

Quoted from Pafasa:
What is the "bypass" switch you talked about. This may be part of your issue. Can you post a pic?

I will try to get a picture tonight. It is a simple push button switch he mounted on the bottom of the cabinet that is supposed to simulate putting a quarter in every time you push it. I will take a picture tonight of where it is wired to on the coin mechanism.

#12 10 years ago

WCG

WillG

Pinside member

11y 26,150 47 4

I'm new too with my first pin as Firepower, but I'll try to help. Maybe you could try setting the game to free play to avoid the switch. It's setting 18 in the menu. Put it to zero. Then it might play. You need all 3 balls in the magazine, or it won't start.

#13 10 years ago

???

jxm1092

Inactive member

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb436/jxm1092/photo3.jpg

I do have 3 balls in the mag I had found that in a youtube video when I first got the machine. As for going through the menu I haven't quite gotten that down yet to be honest. So I opened it back up tonight to get the boards out and as I took them apart they were pretty tight. I could see the female pins moving back into position so I think that isn't necessarily the issue although I do intend to replace them anyways at some point. I did notice looking at the driver board though that one of the chips seemed melted. I added a link to it. Does it seem like this could be the culprit? I'm assuming as well that I will need to replace at least that chip if not the other two next to it.

The second link is a picture of where the wires for that push button go to, to simulate quarters being put into the machine.

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb436/jxm1092/photo4.jpg

#14 10 years ago

HAN

HHaase

Siegecraft

13y 89,550 3,093 4 12

Even with the rather strange touchup work on the playfield, $100 for a Firepower is a good deal. Makes a great machine where you can learn how to do repair and restoration, without breaking the bank, and at the end you'll have one of the great early solid state machines that plays like a demon when it's up to full speed. With CPR having released their playfield for it, you should be able to pick up a second hand one for not too much money, or if you feel the need... go for one of the repros. The pop bumpers are tricky to work around, lots of wires and switches in a small area, but otherwise a great first machine to do a playfield swap in.

If you're always booting up into audit mode, and occasionally attract mode, then your likely issue is going to be a knackered battery holder. They routinely have the brass contacts either corrode or fall off completely, and it's surprising how little corrosion can make the holder go bad. Going with a remote battery holder or NVRAM would be the solution for that, both options have their benefits and drawbacks, both methods are superior to the original battery holder.

If it's not registering quarters, I'd check the condition of the coin door wiring and the coin switches. That whole area is very easily damaged, particularly the little wireforms that make up the actual coin switches. Also easy to rip the wires off of them too. God only knows what kind of additional problems that added switch did to things, as it looks to be soldered directly to the original leaf switch contacts.

However, you're going to need some board work one way or another. That melted chip means you've got 4 solenoids that aren't going to be working... possibly all of them if it also hit the 6821 chip too. Doesn't look like it caused any serious damage to the actual board though, so should be an easy repair.

-Hans

#15 10 years ago

DAJ

Pafasa

Inactive member

Oakland, NE

12y 58,900 3,955 1

I defer to Hans on this one. He knows these boards!

#16 10 years ago

CMX

viperrwk

Inactive member

Hans is right - that 7408 chip is responsible for solenoids 13-16 (sound, credit knocker, flash lamps, coin lockout.) It will need to be replaced and perhaps the solenoid PIA and maybe even one or more of the associated driver transistors as well. Guessing either/or/both knocker/coin lockout coils are bad.

viperrwk

#17 10 years ago

MAT

matthess

Pinside member

Binghamton, NY

11y 40,050 201 20

Booting into audit mode may also be an indication of a shot 5101 CMOS memory. I'm working on a Gorgar and this was the case for me. pinwiki can help with the diagnosis and show you how to test if the 5101 is getting the right voltage. But the fact that it comes on sometimes, may make a bad battery holder more likely. Replace that with a off board battery holder and kill two birds with one stone.

#18 10 years ago

???

jxm1092

Inactive member

Can anybody verify that the two worst chips in that picture are 7408PC like the others next to it. Also the original battery holder was changed but I will probably put a new one in that mounts somewhere else off the board as suggested so there's no battery leakage on the board. Also one of the coin register switches is bad that's the one with the switch wired to it. The other seems to be working mechanically, but I will tackle one thing at a time.

#19 10 years ago

CMX

viperrwk

Inactive member

OP
Quoted from jxm1092:
Can anybody verify that the two worst chips in that picture are 7408PC like the others next to it. Also the original battery holder was changed but I will probably put a new one in that mounts somewhere else off the board as suggested so there's no battery leakage on the board. Also one of the coin register switches is bad that's the one with the switch wired to it. The other seems to be working mechanically, but I will tackle one thing at a time.

The four chips in your photo in the middle are all 7408s. From left to right they are IC4, 3, 2 and 1. Its impossible to tell from looking at them whether they are good or not except for IC4 which has flamed out.

viperrwk

#20 10 years ago

CMX

viperrwk

Inactive member

Check out firepowerpinball.com for good schematics.

viperrwk

#21 10 years ago

???

jxm1092

Inactive member

Quoted from viperrwk:
Check out firepowerpinball.com for good schematics.
viperrwk

Awesome thanks for the info. Ill give an update in the coming days.

1 week later

#22 10 years ago

???

jxm1092

Inactive member

Alright so here's where we stand at the moment. I replaced the battery holder with one that is mounted off the circuit board to prevent any corrosion from batteries. I also replaced IC4 which is that chip that was burned out. So now I have found that I have a bad driver transistor that controls the upper right eject solenoid so that is the next piece I will change on the driver board.

What I'm not sure of is the boot up issue I'm seeing. With the coin door closed the system lights up quick but then shuts off. It does remain on because I can still hear that solenoid that is stuck on. If I open the coin door, I hear a sound then the display LEDs all come on and read all 0's for each push of the coin door button all displays increment by 1. If I power down and then power back up with the coin door open it does come on in attract mode however, I can't get it to go into actual game play yet.

#23 10 years ago

ROB

RobKnapp

Pinside member

Colorado Springs, CO

13y 110K 3,116 13 183

You sound like you are pretty handy. But I would give Clive a call. He fixes all my major board issues. The Coin-Op Cauldron
103 Armistead lane
Easley, SC 29642

Telephone: (864) 238 1707

Good luck .

#24 10 years ago

HAN

HHaase

Siegecraft

13y 89,550 3,093 4 12

Honestly, sounds like you've got something really freaky in your coin door wiring. The thing with the displays, where it's doing the increment like that, is part of the diagnostic sequence in the machine. Shouldn't be doing that unless you're intentionally going into that mode. (going to work on a video to explain that in the next couple days actually, now that I finally solved the speech issue on my own firepower).

If it's eventually getting into attract mode, but not playing, there's a couple things going on. First is the obvious question if you've added any credits or put it into free play. If you have, but it's still not starting, chances are you've got some switch issues. System 6-7 multiball games will not start a game unless they detect the correct number of balls in the trough's or shooter lane, but at the same time there's no way for it to tell you that is the problem. If you can get it into the switch test mode, check all three trough switches and the shooter lane. Remember to test with a ball, not your fingers.

When you replace the solenoid transistor, I always recommend doing the pre-driver 2N4401 as well. A failing driver transistor often stresses or kills the pre-driver too. At only a few cents per piece, it's easy to make sure you have a new and un-compromised part in there.

#25 10 years ago

???

jxm1092

Inactive member

Quoted from HHaase:
Honestly, sounds like you've got something really freaky in your coin door wiring. The thing with the displays, where it's doing the increment like that, is part of the diagnostic sequence in the machine. Shouldn't be doing that unless you're intentionally going into that mode. (going to work on a video to explain that in the next couple days actually, now that I finally solved the speech issue on my own firepower).

Is there a specific setup that the DIP switches on the MPU board as well as the switches on the actual coin door are supposed to be? Not sure if the previous owner set it into a weird mode at some point. Also I checked when I first got the machine that all the switches for the balls in place were making contact, but I will check that again. Just to verify.

Quoted from HHaase:
When you replace the solenoid transistor, I always recommend doing the pre-driver 2N4401 as well. A failing driver transistor often stresses or kills the pre-driver too. At only a few cents per piece, it's easy to make sure you have a new and un-compromised part in there.

Thanks for this suggestion I will probably replace that as well then since I can probably pick one up locally or hopefully add it to my order with digi-key.

1 week later

#26 10 years ago

???

jxm1092

Inactive member

Well I changed the Q25 transistor and the Q24 pre-driver as well, but still had the solenoid locked on. Looked at the schematic and that circuit is on IC2 which I did not change. I changed IC4 since it was burned up. Luckily I ordered some extra 7408s the first time so I plan to fix that issue tomorrow.

As for the coin door issue does anyone have any suggestions as to how the switches should be setup because I'm still getting that diagnostic problem when the door is closed/open.

Surprisingly it also seemed to come to life when I turned it on a couple times. It came on and said "firepower" then I got some long tone that wouldn't stop. Is it possible that I have bad ROM chips or something wrong on the MPU board? When I ran the MPU board check out from mark's site, it didn't find any issues and I'm hoping to avoid having to purchase a new board setup.

As always thank you for the help guys and gals.

#27 10 years ago

BRA

balbers

Inactive member

Converse, TX

10y 32,900 365 1 13

I love Firepower. Hope you get the issues all sorted out. Best of luck!

#28 10 years ago

???

jxm1092

Inactive member

Success!!.....kind of. I replaced the other 7408 IC's and I no longer have any locked on solenoids. However, I'm still having this coin door issue and at this point I'm stumped.

When I turn on the machine and I press the Diagnostic button in the upper cabinet the LED's flash once then go out so from what I've read this is a pass on the self test. Also I don't think I have any issues regarding the connection between the MPU board and driver board because the 40 pin connectors all look to be making good contact (no sockets are obviously loose) and the connectors are still pretty tight to take apart and put together so I don't suspect this to be an issue.

I'm really asking for your help everyone so I can give this gift to my father soon. As always thank you for any input.

#29 10 years ago

DAD

MTPPC

Blocked

11y 591

What is the coin door problem again?

#30 10 years ago

???

jxm1092

Inactive member

Quoted from MTPPC:
What is the coin door problem again?

If I turn the machine on with the coin door closed it comes on quickly then everything goes out. If I then open the coin door the displays will come on all 0's and will increase sequentially for each push of the coor door open/closed switch. If I turn the machine on with the coin door open it will come on in attract mode, but if I then close the coin door I end up back on the state I previously mentioned.

#31 10 years ago

CMX

viperrwk

Inactive member

Sounds like the coin door switches are shorted. Disconnect the harness at the coin door, shut it and turn on the machine. If it comes on normally you'll need to check/replace coin door switch(es).

viperrwk

#32 10 years ago

???

jxm1092

Inactive member