(Topic ID: 126009)

Firepower: intermittent glitches piling up

By DaveInSanFran

8 years ago


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  • 33 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by thedefog
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#1 8 years ago

NEWBIE -- I have owned pinball machines for only just over a month. I welcome any insight on your approach to diagnosing failures on this old System 6 machine. Thanks in advance!!

My Firepower's behavior has been "deteriorating" before my eyes, and I'm wondering if all the symptoms below, taken as a whole, might suggest a specific problem. I should have time tonight to run in diagnostic mode to check switches and solenoids, but I remain suspicious of board level issues rather than playfield components or connections. I'll eventually pull the playfield and systematically check every solenoid, switch, diode, and solder connection but I'm hoping that this combination of symptoms rings a bell with someone for a simple fix.

(FWIW, the main 40-pin board connector was replaced before I got the machine along with a new Rottendog power supply board. All sounds, lights, displays and game play have generally been okay, except for the growing list of intermittent issues listed below. Yay! Welcome to the hobby!)

I'm wondering if a bad diode or broken diode connection could cause intermittent system-wide misbehavior like this. Could it be a power supply or rectifier issue? Perhaps a bad PIA? Any suggestions are welcome!

New issues since last night. These failures are all intermittent, and can occur or clear up within the same turn:

a. Right flipper intermittently sticks in up position. (After reading some ideas here, I'll check to see if it's something mechanical or electrical. Maybe the EOS switch is getting stuck.)

b. Some switches intermittently fail to register. Lane change can take two or three flipper clicks before changing the lights. Lanes sometimes fail to register, and 1-6 targets don't register but then suddenly work again.

c. Kicker solenoid seems weak, but only sometimes.

Older problems, still unresolved:

d. Solenoid fuse often blows after 20 minutes of play.

e. Intermittent problem with pulsing lights. Discussed here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/firepower-lamp-columns-pulse-throb Like the other problems, this occurs and clears up at random.

#2 8 years ago
Quoted from DaveInSanFran:

a. Right flipper intermittently sticks in up position. (After reading some ideas here, I'll check to see if it's something mechanical or electrical. Maybe the EOS switch is getting stuck.)

Probably mechanical. Check if the flipper is too tight to the playfield. Check to see if the EOS switch or return spring is binding the flipper. Check/replace the coil sleeve or consider rebuilding the flipper. If you have the glass off, and the flipper sticks, if you can push it back down with little force it's mechanical. If the flipper 'fights' back the coil is energized and its electrical.

Quoted from DaveInSanFran:

b. Some switches intermittently fail to register. Lane change can take two or three flipper clicks before changing the lights. Lanes sometimes fail to register, and 1-6 targets don't register but then suddenly work again.

Firepower (among other games I think) has problems with crappy switches. The short story is many switches are manufactured wrong where the gold plated contacts are not face to face, and instead the crappy backing rivet is the contact surface. These switches have a tendency to work very poorly after 30 years and I found I had to clean them very well to get them reliable (or you can replace or fix them but its insanely time-consuming and/or expensive). I used a mild alcohol and a thick papery business card sandwitched between the contacts to clean them. Don't get too aggressive on the gold plated surfaces.

Also this doesn't mean you don't have switch matrix issues, but my old Firepower had many non-functioning switch issues simply caused by crappy switches.

Quoted from DaveInSanFran:

c. Kicker solenoid seems weak, but only sometimes

It is weak (or mine was at least) and depending on the outlane switch sensitivity it can be REALLY weak if it triggers too soon. Again check the coil sleeve for mechanical binding, but keep in mind Firepower runs on 24V coils, not the 50V coils of Sys 11. My Firepower kickback at best would hit the blue power targets, but more commonly would hit closer to the right outlane.

Quoted from DaveInSanFran:

d. Solenoid fuse often blows after 20 minutes of play.

Need more info. Can you guess at a specific coil/event/duration for this to happen? Are you certain you are replacing the fuse with the correct amperage and is it is a slo-blow fuse? (I THINK it's supposed to be slo-blow.... don't rely on me on that one)

Quoted from DaveInSanFran:

e. Intermittent problem with pulsing lights.

Bizarre. I've never seen anything like this. Looks kinda cool actually despite it being undesirable. At this point this one is out of my league. Personally I would start replacing components in the lamp matrix circuits from the bottom up and seeing if it goes away, but that's not very scientific.

#3 8 years ago

Hi Purpledrilmonkey.

Thanks for the detailed feedback. Where I said kicker, I meant the slingshot. The lack of power seems like a recent change. The machine had been generally functioning well, except for the lights and fuse, but the other 3 problems all started at the same time last night.

The flipper sticking may very well be due to lack of clearance against the bushing. I recently adjusted the pawl and it might need a proper gap. This popping up yesterday might have just been a coincidence.

The switch and lane change failures are very intermittent as of last night, whereas they previously worked nearly flawlessly. It seems like groups of them fail at once, and then start again just as suddenly. It behaves more like a short somewhere or a circuit issue than the notorious backward contacts.

The fuse that fails is a 3-amp slo-blow. (I believe the original power supply used 2.5 amp, but the Rottendog uses 3-amp.) I have found no rhyme or reason to when it fails other than it becoming more likely to occur the longer I play. The pulsing lights are indeed a mystery that won't be easy to solve. I only mention the lights and fuse because I'm suspicious that all these failures may all be somehow related.

I haven't had time to run diagnostics, so I'll dig into this more in the morning.

#4 8 years ago

Sounds like bad solder joints on the back of the driver board to me. There's about 70 wires connected on about 12 connectors going to the driver board, the switches work in rows and columns, if 1 switch wire makes a bad connection that whole row or column won't register.

The reason the solder breaks loose is because when the connectors get removed, the pins bend slightly, especially the ones on the end of each connector and eventually break loose from the surrounding solder. They then conduct when they're touching but it's intermittent.

Whoever replaced the 40 pin connector should have resoldered all of that, though... but maybe they didn't.

#5 8 years ago
Quoted from DaveInSanFran:

Hi Purpledrilmonkey.
Thanks for the detailed feedback. Where I said kicker, I meant the slingshot. The lack of power seems like a recent change. The machine had been generally functioning well, except for the lights and fuse, but the other 3 problems all started at the same time last night.

Make sure the slingshot switches are gapped properly. Slingshots (and pops) are considered 'special' solenoids and are fired directly by switch closure, not by the CPU sensing a switch closure. The duration of the switch being closed alters how hard the sling hits the ball.

It could also be a bad/shorted coil on the kicker making it weak. Depends how consistent the 'weakness' is. This could also be contributing to increased loads on the coil fuse.

The switch and lane change failures are very intermittent as of last night, whereas they previously worked nearly flawlessly. It seems like groups of them fail at once, and then start again just as suddenly. It behaves more like a short somewhere or a circuit issue than the notorious backward contacts.

Do you have phantom switch closures or just banks of them not working? Switches operate in a matrix like the lamps do so it can get complicated troubleshooting them.

The fuse that fails is a 3-amp slo-blow. (I believe the original power supply used 2.5 amp, but the Rottendog uses 3-amp.) I have found no rhyme or reason to when it fails other than it becoming more likely to occur the longer I play. The pulsing lights are indeed a mystery that won't be easy to solve. I only mention the lights and fuse because I'm suspicious that all these failures may all be somehow related.

Almost anything is possible but in general coil/lamp/switch issues are reasonably separate in terms of board and playfield logic and wiring. If one is shorted into another its generally catastrophic and immediate, not so vague and inconsistent.

The one big exception to this is the 40 Pin connector. Pretty much everything to do with the game can be affected by this connector. Frankly before fully reading your post, all your problems sound like 40-pin connector problems. I am beginning to think whomever claimed to have replaced the 40 pin connector either a) didn't b) only replaced half of it or c) did a poor job

One thing I've done to troubleshoot the 40 pin connector (and other bad solder) is to gently flex the driver or CPU boards in the backbox while in a game or test mode to see if any of the issues can be induced by flexture of a connection. Obviously be careful and don't go overboard, but gently pushing on the center of the boards can be enough to send switches lamps and coils into bizarre states if you have bad connections anywhere.

#6 8 years ago

Thanks, LyonsRonnie1 and Purpledrilmonkey.

Indeed, I am looking at several separate problems that coincidentally appeared around the same time.

a. Right flipper sticking: Indeed the gap between the flipper and bushing was too small. With a notched credit card I reset the gap. The bushings remain a little sloppy, so I'll order replacements (and rebuild kits). I'm tempted to swap the existing coil springs for the newer external spring style.

b. Switch failures: The right EOS switch and lane change switch have been abused. Closer inspection suggests that they are long overdue for replacement. A previous owner has the leaves looking like crinkle cut potato chips!

The solder point for one leaf of a lane switch was also dangerously close to a GI lighting socket. The "random" loss of a switch column (and/or row?) might be attributed to a direct short to the lights. Play was generally better after I tweaked the position of the leads.

I'm still seeing intermittent switch failures, but now it might be gapping or cleaning issues. I'll need to watch the behavior closely over the next few games. (I'm away from the machine for now.)

c. Sluggish slingshot -- absolutely the result of poorly gapped switches and a sloppy linkage. It's pretty challenging to get them gap close enough for quick response but far enough to avoid re-firing the solenoid. The two switches were gapped differently, so behavior was radically different depending upon which switch was closest to the ball.

d. Solenoid fuse: It's still hard to say what's happening here. I blew one fuse after about 30 minutes of diagnostics and test play. The next one lasted for less than 5 minutes of game play. I should have inspected the system for hot components. Maybe I can borrow my coworker's thermal imaging camera...

e. Pulsing lights: Still clueless.

For my own peace of mind, I think I'll ultimately redo the 40-pin connectors myself. Everything I've read talks about the horrors induced by bad connections there. Meanwhile, I'll try the gentle flexing test to see if it triggers any failures.

The previous owner suggested that the owner prior to him was a bit of a hack. Despite the clean up work done before I got it, I still find evidence of sloppy work under the playfield. Regardless, the game generally plays very well. I'm not sure if I'm up for completely disassembling and restoring the system, but I'll likely begin systematically servicing a couple components at a time. I'll probably begin de-/re-soldering, testing, cleaning and replacing the sleeves and diodes on each solenoid.

#7 8 years ago

Good reading. My Firepower is being picked up tomorrow. With all the Firepower threads, I am pretty sure I can fix anything!

#8 8 years ago

Hi, Keetur. Congrats on getting your new (old) machine! This forum is priceless for maintaining and troubleshooting your system. I'd like to think I too can fix anything, but inevitably nothing is as easy as it sounds and it always takes three times longer than you'd expect.

I'm still dealing with intermittent switch failures. I've ruled out cleaning/gapping the switches -- they respond beautifully. Rather, it seems that occasionally the system fails to scan, or delays scanning the switch matrix. The best example of the failure would be the ball landing in a multi-ball lane, or going down the drain, and sitting there for at least half a second before the machine responds with score or kicker. Most of the time, when working correctly, this is instantaneous. Similarly, any/all rollovers and standing targets will sometimes fail at the same time to respond, but act fine moments later.

As discussed in many, many threads, the 40-pin main board connector is always a suspect. Mine was supposedly redone by the previous owner and all solder points checked by a local shop when the power supply was replaced. However, I may need to pull the boards and check them again, because I need to be 100% certain this isn't related to the intermittent failures.

#9 8 years ago
Quoted from DaveInSanFran:

As discussed in many, many threads, the 40-pin main board connector is always a suspect. Mine was supposedly redone by the previous owner and all solder points checked by a local shop when the power supply was replaced.

Are the connector housings BRIGHT WHITE?

Are the contacts themselves SHINY SILVER?

#10 8 years ago

I usually just replace ALL the male headers and female contacts, and all the chip sockets.

Saves so much tail chasing.

1 week later
#11 8 years ago

More status and general rambling about my recent observations.

To Vid1900, regarding intermittent issues: Thanks, the main connectors seem to be all bright white and shiny silver. But you're right about tail-chasing. I need to be smart about systematically eliminating issues here. I have not yet removed any boards from the backbox for detailed inspection. (Where does the time go?)

Regarding my item "d" above -- the solenoid fuse blowing: Specifically troubleshooting this issue last night, I found that with the backbox open, the fuse seemed to last longer -- well over 30 minutes. After closing the backbox, it failed within 5 minutes. I'm going to stick my meter's thermocouple in the backbox to see just how hot it's getting in there. (If there are bad solder joints as suggested by LionsRonnie1 above, I'm sure that high temperatures would only exacerbate the problem.)

Related to this, would I noticeably lower the backbox temperature by switching all the bulbs from #44 to #47?

Regarding item "b" above -- the intermittent switches: This remains the single most frustrating issue. I really don't think this is mechanical or bad soldering, as the switches previously all worked flawlessly. They currently seem to cycle in and out over the course of a few seconds... all working, none working, all working, none working... just wait an instant and the switch fires the next time you hit it. (As I describe it, I realize that this sounds strangely similar to the pulsing lights problem I also see from time to time.)

I continue to watch the system deteriorate before my eyes... Yesterday I detected a drop in audio fidelity. That rich, memorable firepower sound has become "tinny" like listening to a small transistor radio. I adjusted the effects balance and main volume, but these don't change the audio quality. One more item to research and restore. (Sigh.)

I don't have a test bench set up yet, nor a lot of electronics experience. I have a decent multimeter, but no logic probe, scope or tracer. I'll start some clean threads later with more specific questions about testing specific components, unless of course I find it already in an earlier forum thread.

Thanks, everyone for allowing me to ramble on about this. Hopefully, as I continue to nibble away at the troubleshooting, I'll get more clues to share with the experts here.

#12 8 years ago
Quoted from DaveInSanFran:

Related to this, would I noticeably lower the backbox temperature by switching all the bulbs from #44 to #47?

fwiw -- All my pins have 10 or fewer 47s in the backbox. I'm not trying to attract people in a bar to play my pins -- I'm trying to eliminate glare for the home player.

-mof

#13 8 years ago

In case you haven't done it -- make sure you've protected yourself and your machine from some common problems when you take a machine home.

-mof

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/post-purchase-checklist

#14 8 years ago

Start by rebuilding the power supply and just bulletproof the whole game

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-bulletproofing-williams-system-6

#15 8 years ago

The switches may all be dirty too if they haven't been cleaned in awhile. Also some switches that get hit hard often have a capacitor on them to help the cpu see the hit. On Firepower this would probably be the standups, all mine were working so I didn't pay much attention to them but I did have to clean the switches.

Also that could still be a bad solder job on the driver board, because that's how bad solder works, it intermittently connects.

I also had a firepower years ago that did all kinds of crazy things, ended up being the Rom sockets.

#17 8 years ago

Vid1900: Thanks for "vids-guides-to-everything". These are excellent resources for newbies and veterans alike. I appreciate having them available here.

LyonsRonnie1: I keep a crisp new bill in the coin tray for cleaning the contacts. The failures are new, and too intermittent to be dirty contacts. I keep them clean and test continuity frequently. I think you're right about bad solder joints, and they are at the top of my never-ending "TO DO" list.

Mof: Thanks for pointing me at the club. I hadn't noticed before, but count me in! I'm about 1/10th through the old posts there...

Who's going to Pin A Gogo?

#19 8 years ago

vid1900: Regarding the "bullet proofing" -- Wow. Awesome stuff. This should keep me busy for a while. I love the swap of MOSFETs for TIPs -- anything to reduce temp is a good thing.

#20 8 years ago

+1 on ROM sockets. If they are brown "Scanbe" sockets, replace them. Consider going to the 'combo ROM' solution w/ a new socket.

Also, all connectors (I mean all) are suspect unless recently changed out.

Upgrade the driver board to zero ohm resistors on the switch circuits. Search Pinside or maybe one of the better techs will give you more specifics.

#21 8 years ago

Don_C: I think the previous owner already took care of the Combo ROM upgrade. He worked with a reputable shop in the area, so a lot of this has been done already.

I'll need to make time to do my own assessment of just about everything in the system. I'll post photos and a list of my observations here over the duration of the restoration project.

#22 8 years ago

Instead of eating dinner tonight, I spent hours inspecting and photographing the boards and bottom of the playfield.

Started inspecting per the Bulletproofing guide:
- I do not yet have fuses as recommended off the rectifiers for fire prevention.
- TIPs have not yet been replaced with MOSFETs, and the old resistors are discolored from the heat. It's time to make the switch to MOSFET and Zero ohm jumpers.
- The 40-pin connector was replaced recently and still looks awesome. I'm not worried about it. However...
- All the other connectors are wiggly and loose. After my inspection, neither the score display nor solenoids 1-8 worked. The solenoids were particularly hard to get working. Reseating all the plugs eventually fixed both problems, but this indicates that I need to spend some time replacing ALL the molex connectors and pins.
- I found and fixed another potential short between a switch and the GI wiring.
- I tested all solenoids (in line) and found them each to have a resistance of about 4 ohms.

Coin Door Lockout:
All the other solenoids tested as 4 ohms, but the coin door lockout coil showed a resistance of 262 ohms. Could this be contributing to the blown solenoid fuses?

Power supply question:
From the Rottendog power supply, I tested the voltage of the red solenoid power wires at 35V. The original schematic shows solenoids powered at 28V. Could this be contributing to the blown fuses?

#23 8 years ago

Cut one lead from the coin door lockout coil.

No one on earth is ever going to put money into a dark pinball machine.

#24 8 years ago

I've removed a lead from the coin lockout coil. I was really hoping that this was the source of the blown fuses, but no. I blew another one after about 20 minutes of play. Oh well, troubleshooting continues...

(Good news -- knock on wood -- the intermittent switch failures and pulsing lamps are gone. Game play is rock solid again. I'm afraid to touch anything for now! I'll enjoy it for a bit before diving into "bullet-proofing" mode.)

#25 8 years ago

If you get stuck with one fuse blowing over and over while troubleshooting, it might be worth it to grab one of these:
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/search.asp
If Ed doesn't have, it you can some from mouser.
-mof

#26 8 years ago

Are you using slo-blow type fuses?

#27 8 years ago

mof, your link didn't point at a product. I assume you were going to suggest a circuit breaker? I have a 3 AMP thermal circuit breaker I was going to solder to a blown fuse and drop into the socket for troubleshooting.

mwsmith, yes, I'm using 3A slow blow as recommended for this board. It takes about 20 minutes to get to the point where the system goes nuts and all solenoids fire. The scoreboard displays flash crazy numbers at the moment of failure too.

I'm gonna switch to #47 bulbs in the back box and make pin1900's suggested change of TIP to MOSFET and get rid of the hot resistors. Hopefully keeping the temperatures down will help. I'll also recheck all the solder points for cracks or cold joints.

#28 8 years ago

When it goes nuts, does it lock up, or does it just do it for a second until it blows the fuse?

if it's just a temporary thing while it blows the fuse, I think you might have a bad coil diode. If you've got a bad coil diode, sometimes it will only be a factor if another coil fires at the same time... So it could be something like one of the pop bumpers has a bad diode, and if you have another coil fire while that pop bumper's firing it blows the fuse.

Something like that. I'd definitely check all those, are you sure there's no rhyme or reason at all to when it blows the fuse, no common coil or switch or anything?

#29 8 years ago

It might be irrelevant, but let me point you to my own thread here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/firepower-playfield-problem

I had a problem with the switch matrix driver on IC17 constantly frying, leading to problems fairly similar to yours with random switches triggered and lamp pulsing. The problem turned out to be bad isolation between the coil bracket on the pop bumpers and the lamp lead, so whenever the pop bumpers were lit simultaneously to a ball hit, there was a short. From what I understand some Firepower playfields have plastic tubing in this area, others don't. Mine didn't. Ever since I isolated the lamp wire I have not experienced problems.

#30 8 years ago
Quoted from DaveInSanFran:

mof, your link didn't point at a product. I assume you were going to suggest a circuit breaker? I have a 3 AMP thermal circuit breaker I was going to solder to a blown fuse and drop into the socket for troubleshooting.

awesome.
-mof

#31 8 years ago

Thanks Archieball. If nothing else I'm learning that there are few coincidences in electronics. If things start failing at once, they are probably related, regardless how unrelated they seem. My "random" switch failures had to do with a missing staple on my braided GI wire. When the playfield was up for work, it all looked good, but when horizontal it would sometimes short against a switch. I fixed this and the machine plays better than ever.

Regarding the solenlid fuse, I've not seen any pattern to the failures. I recall it failing at least once while sitting in attract mode. The game generally does not lock up, but sometimes does. Flippers and sounds remain active (unless I'm imagining things.) I'll try to capture the failure on video. In additon to checking solder points, I will start replacing diodes.

1 week later
#32 8 years ago

Damn. While I was fiddling with my game, you made REAL progress. I am curious if you are going to change out some of the bigger components due to heat issues. That appears to be my problem as well.

#33 8 years ago

Installing a PC case fan into a Firepower to blow hot air out may not be a bad idea. Just tap it right into the +12 off the PSU.

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