(Topic ID: 202634)

Firepower II - Blowing Solenoid Fuse (and others)

By MaxAsh

6 years ago


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  • 78 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by MaxAsh
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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There are 78 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 6 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

Damn. Looks like it's probably time to rebuild the high voltage section then. I did find something worth checking on pinwiki though:
http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_3_-_7#.2B.2F-100v_Display_HV_Section_of_PSU
The suggestion is to remove the power connectors from the master display board (with the power off, of course) and if the fuse doesn't blow, it could be a bad UDN chip on the master display board. Still, they suggest rebuilding the high voltage section if the components have been stressed.

I'm assuming they're saying unplug the power coming into the master display board that's on the back of the swing-out front panel. I took that connector off, and still the same glowing fuse issue. I left it on for about 15 seconds and started a game. Fuse didn't blow, but stayed glowing. See attached pic. Note: I think this is supposed to be a 32mm slow blo fuse... I think I was sent 30mm fast ><

Fuse_glow (resized).jpgFuse_glow (resized).jpg

#52 6 years ago

Check the side of the caps on the fuse, does it say AGC or MDL or any other abbreviations? The schematic calls for a 1/4 amp slow-blow.

#53 6 years ago

I didn't like that the markings on these were scarce. It's got "T250mA" and "250V" which I expected, but the only other clear markings on the fuses are the UL approved stamp and what might be "sb" in a circle, but it's really hard to tell. Just in case, I just ordered some name branded Littelfuse 3AG 1/4A slow blows in an actual package instead of loose, random ones from eBay like this first batch.

Regarding the HV section, I think someone may have rebuild it before, or at least some of it. The transistors and several resistors look to be soldered by someone after the original manufacture, so I would guess it's been done.

Should I head over to the Test Points on the MPU and take some readings there?

#54 6 years ago

I wouldn't worry too much about the other test points for the moment, at least until you get the HV section working again. If you like, post some pics of the high voltage section (front and back of board). Even though certain components may have been replaced, the problem may be with some that haven't been. Most of the HV components aren't even that hard to replace: lots of resistors, diodes, etc. Trickiest part is the big transistors. Even though parts have been replaced before, it's hard to say how long ago...and if they didn't rebuild the whole HV section, the parts that are going bad now may have stressed the 'newer' parts... If it was my game, I'd rebuild the HV section and then see where it stands after that.

#55 6 years ago

Looks like the GPE kit shows out of stock, so I'll have to piece-part it together using a list. Unless there's another known good place to snag the kit w/o the caps (since I did those already)? Been googling around. Suggestions welcome!

I did some quick testing, and aside from the known dead pop, everything else in the game continues to work great. So if I can get this new display dead thing figured out, and that pop going, I think I'll be okay. Is there any chance the interconnect between the main boards could be part of this display issue? I haven't replaced that yet, just got the stuff the other day.

#56 6 years ago

It looks like the displays are handled by the MPU board, i don't think they go through the 40-pin interconnect. Either way, the interconnect is a known Achilles heel on these games, and should be replaced anyway to prevent other possible issues. I'm really thinking the high voltage section will need to be rebuilt to get the fuse to stop blowing though. Once you get the right fuses, i suppose we'll find out!

#57 6 years ago

I think I've cobbled together all the pieces I need based on the HV parts list on GPE's site. Thankfully, even though they don't have that kit 'in stock' they still list everything in it, so I can source it elsewhere. I found most of it at Mouser, aside from I think one transistor they're out of stock on right now. Have to snag that from eBay and wait a little longer for it to arrive it seems.

My plan is rebuild the rest of the HV board, replace the interconnect stuff between the other two boards, and read up on anything else I should do.

Regarding that non-working pop ... a while back you had me ground it at the transistor to see if it fired (and it did). The other day I did an in-circuit test of the transistor and the numbers matched what is expected from a good transistor. I thought that was odd, but since it's on the board who knows. I have the replacements, so I'll still do that when I do everything else. But part of me wonders if there's something else along the way wiring or trace-wise that's not connected. Another strange thing I noticed: the schematics don't quite match the wiring/board. It all looks to be original and not tampered with, but the diagram doesn't match reality. I'd have to look again, but it was something like the top left bumper seems to go to the transistor marked for the bottom right, and vice versa. I will look again, but it seems like they're mixed up. It doesn't really matter from what I can tell, but it was interesting. I'll double check that and report back on it eventually. Need to get the above stuff done first though!

#58 6 years ago

There's certainly other possible reasons why the pop bumper isn't firing outside of a bad transistor. Did you also test the smaller predriver transistor next to the TIP122? Also, meter testing a transistor isn't always 100% accurate. Still, based on the appearance of the transistor, I'd still replace it and it's predriver anyway since it looks like alkaline leakage reached them. If replacing the driver and predriver doesn't fix it, it could be a bad chip. The circuit typically goes from PIA to 74xx chip to predriver transistor to driver transistor. So the 74xx chip (not sure if it's a 7402, 7408, etc, schematic should say) could be bad. As for which transistor controls which pop bumper--the schematic *might* be incorrect, so it would be worth getting verification from another FPII owner.

Grounding the transistor to fire the pop bumper does verify the coil has good voltage and the wiring/connectors from the board to the pop bumper are good--but it doesn't actually test the transistor itself. I think you have the right approach so far, so I'd stick with your plan.

#59 6 years ago

Will do on the pop, thanks.

Update: So I received the new fuses. Definitely the correct size, rating, etc. this time. Hurray. That's the good news. Bad New: Blew immediately when the game was turned on.

Ordered all the parts to rebuild the HV section. One transistor might take a while, the rest should be here in less than a week. Once everything arrives, I get that stuff installed and go from there. While I wait, question: If I rebuild the rest of the HV stuff, and the fuse still blows, what next?

#60 6 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

Blew immediately

Please create a breaker for that fuse while you figure this out. No more fuses need be wasted. Such a great tool to have on hand. If you extend a long pair of wires to the breaker (make a set of various lengths if you want, and molex the longer one for now) -- then it can be right inside the coinbox... (if it's intermittent)
-mof

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/making-and-using-a-fuse-breaker

#61 6 years ago

Which transistor are you going to have to wait for? Just curious.

If the fuse still blows after rebuilding the HV section...well honestly there doesn't appear to be too much else that will blow the fuse. As it is, it's blowing the fuse even with the power disconnected from the master display board, right? If so, that would seem to rule out the displays and master display board... Leaving only the HV section on the power supply as the likely source of the bad component(s) blowing the fuse.

Mof: i agree with you 100%, circuit breaker is definitely the best choice when applicable. However, the fuse he's dealing with here is 1/4 amp--and i can't find any circuit breakers smaller than 1 amp. If you know anywhere we can get 1/4 amp circuit breakers, please let us know!

#63 6 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

Which transistor are you going to have to wait for? Just curious.

MJE15031 - Mouser had all the rest, but that was backordered it seems.

Quoted from frunch:

If the fuse still blows after rebuilding the HV section...well honestly there doesn't appear to be too much else that will blow the fuse. As it is, it's blowing the fuse even with the power disconnected from the master display board, right? If so, that would seem to rule out the displays and master display board... Leaving only the HV section on the power supply as the likely source of the bad component(s) blowing the fuse.
Mof: i agree with you 100%, circuit breaker is definitely the best choice when applicable. However, the fuse he's dealing with here is 1/4 amp--and i can't find any circuit breakers smaller than 1 amp. If you know anywhere we can get 1/4 amp circuit breakers, please let us know!

Okay, makes sense. I've got 4 more fuses (and can get more). For now, I'll wait until I rebuild that HV section before bothering to try another. Would it be worth disconnecting everything aside from incoming power to the HV section and trying a fuse in there to see if it blows? Based on what you're saying, there's no sense in that, so I think I just hold off.

Going back to my original Solenoid fuse issue, I find it interesting that it stopped blowing after I installed the "fuse saver" board. Then again, I did improve the ground connection area in the backbox (wasn't making great contact) as well, and did a little clean-up on some other stuff. I guess any number of the little things I did may have fixed whatever was blowing that original Solenoid fuse. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth I guess.

I'm basically in a holding pattern for the moment - I hate waiting, but hey, I can do some cosmetic work in the mean time. I also have a guy here in town that wants me to go look at his Stellar Wars, and since it's similar to Firepower II in some ways, maybe I can use some of what you guys have shown me to figure out his issue.

#64 6 years ago

Yeah, I'd hold off replacing the fuse again. It seems likely that the HV section is what's blowing it, so might as well hang tight until you get a chance to rebuild it.

I've always wanted to play a Stellar Wars, i see one on CL every so often, usually around $600 or so. If i had the room, I'd probably have bought it already Good luck with it! It's certainly possible they're also going to need their 40-pin interconnect replaced, so definitely take a look at that and see if it appears to be original. I always start with the basics on a new (to me) game: pull each fuse and check to see it's rated correctly (arguably more important than anything else, imo) and has continuity with meter. Check for proper voltages at power supply board. If caps on power supply appear to be original, replace them. Gotta start with a solid foundation before troubleshooting any further.

#65 6 years ago

Update Time - So I pulled the MPU and Driver board. Found some corrosion "dripped" down the back of the driver board, but nothing too serious. I was able to clean it up using suggested methods, and tested out traces, no issues that I could find. I took the time to replace the 40-pin connector/headers, so that's all done. It was much easier than I thought it would be, so that wasn't so bad. I also replaced 4 transistors on the driver board that were looking iffy as mentioned above, one of which was directly related to my dead pop bumper. Sure enough, after pulling the transistor and testing it, it was no good, so the new one will hopefully fix that issue.

The parts for finishing the HV rebuild should be here in the next few days, so I'll pull that and get those installed next. With the transistors, looks like some white thermal compound is on there. Should I clean, remove, and replace that? I have plenty of CPU heatsink compounds lying around, would that work?

#66 6 years ago

Nice work! I just found instructions for rebuilding the HV section and there's an important note regarding the installation of the MJE15030 and MJE15031 transistors. You have to install the legs a bit differently due to their different pin-outs than the obsolete transistors they're replacing. If you wanted to be extra careful, you could use a bit of heat shrink tubing to insulate the crossed leg. Here's the link to the pdf: http://www.greatplainselectronics.com/Downloads/W3-11_HV_Kit.pdf

Definitely clean and add some heat sink compound. Just a little bit is needed, as i suspect you know.

#67 6 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

Nice work! I just found instructions for rebuilding the HV section and there's an important note regarding the installation of the MJE15030 and MJE15031 transistors. You have to install the legs a bit differently due to their different pin-outs than the obsolete transistors they're replacing.

I had read about that, but that picture in the link is useful, thanks! Waiting for the last few parts to roll in and I'll get cracking on the HV rebuild. Once that's done, I'll reassemble everything, cross my fingers, and fire it up again.

#68 6 years ago

So when I pulled the power supply board again to begin the rest of the HV rebuild, I looked closer at the transistors already on it. They're already the 'newer' transistors (E15030, E15031). But as you can see in this pic, the legs are NOT installed differently, as cited in the document you linked. I'm guessing there's a good chance this might be causing some issues? With both wrong like this, I'm curious why not more stuff was messed up. Thoughts?

FP2_PS_Trans (resized).jpgFP2_PS_Trans (resized).jpg

#69 6 years ago

Welp, I've never seen that before.

I'm really surprised the displays worked with the transistors installed that way. Regardless, I'd still rebuild the HV section as per instructions from GPE and see what happens.

That is weird though! Hopefully someone else can shed some light as to why they worked installed that way.

#70 6 years ago

Maybe Mof can drop back in and offer an opinion. Very weird. I'll double check the back side of the board again, but I didn't see any jumpering or re-wiring ideas that would allow them to get away with installing it as shown.

I am a little worried though... should I still do the cross-leg thing? What if somehow they worked around it and I can't tell, and then I cross legs on the new ones, and then something goes kablooey? Should I just go for it as GPE says, and say screw it?

#71 6 years ago

I'd just trace out the circuits in the high voltage section and make sure they didn't make any other sort of modifications. If everything else in the hv section looks unaltered, I'd probably just proceed rebuilding it...but i think it's probably smart to wait and see if we can find anymore info before proceeding.

#72 6 years ago

Well, it appears certain power supply boards were built to utilize the MJE transistors! We'll need to figure out exactly which generation your power supply board is. If it came out of a Williams system 11 game, it may actually be designed to use those transistors (which would mean no leg-crossing needed)...

Quoting GPE from another thread: If you are not crossing the legs then you have a board that is intended to use MJE15030/31's (late models of alpha numeric games). Which game and specifically which board are these from?

Here's the thread i found that from: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-display-power-transistor-issue-solve

#73 6 years ago

HA! I just came back to post about the System 11 board possibility. Here's the part number on the board: 5765-09466-01 . Googling that I come up with results all saying System 11 (but not if it's late series or not). Think it's safe to assume it is and go with the normal non-crossed legs? For now I'll replace everything else until I get an official verdict. Last thing I want to do is kill this board haha.

#74 6 years ago

Weird! Good catch.

I'd definitely hold off for a moment while we find out exactly what seems to be going on here.

Looking at schematics for system 11 games, i found High Speed (sys 11) and F-14 Tomcat (sys 11a) both have similar looking power supply boards as the one you're working with, but neither call for the MJE15030/31 transistors. They call for the obsolete SDS201 and SDS202 that get replaced with the MJE transistors with the leg-crossing modification.

Black Knight 2000 (sys 11b) and Rollergames (sys 11c) both use a different-looking power supply board where the big HV transistors are mounted on heat sinks that are mounted perpendicular to the board. Those ones are listed as using MJE15030/31 transistors...

This one's a head-scratcher for sure.

#75 6 years ago

Think it's worth changing everything else, leaving the transistors as they are, and then trying the board? Or just wait?
It's weird that the game was 99% working as is (just one dead pop bumper) before the recent displays going out thing. Hard for me to believe the transistors could be completely done wrong and the game would still work like that haha.

#76 6 years ago

How long has the game been working that way?

Honestly, I'd probably hold off for a minute while we try to get to the bottom of this. Might even be worth starting a separate thread in hopes of getting some input from the other techs here.

#77 6 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

How long has the game been working that way?
Honestly, I'd probably hold off for a minute while we try to get to the bottom of this. Might even be worth starting a separate thread in hopes of getting some input from the other techs here.

Well, when I first got the game, it was powering on, but blowing the solenoid fuse immediately whenever a game was started. The batteries were dead too. I reseated all the connectors after moving it into my place, and tried it again with a new fuse. The game played a bunch of games, then blew the fuse again. I installed a NVRAM and Fuse Saver board next. After that, the solenoid fuse never blew again. I probably played about 40-50 games with no issues aside from one dead pop bumper. Displays, everything, all worked great.

Then one day the displays were simply not on, and when I checked the high V fuse it was blown. Replacing it just blew it again. That's basically where I was at when I started the HV section work (capacitors), and you know the story since.

Yea, I probably should try another thread, since people might be skipping by this, and the title is about fuses and not the transistors. I'll give this a little longer to see if anyone else chimes in first.

#78 6 years ago

Just reporting back that Firepower II is back in action! Marking the thread as problem solved. For those keeping score:

- Rebuilt the HV section (caps too), found incorrectly installed Q1 and Q3 transistors, replaced and properly installed with suggested cross-leg method
- Replaced/repinned several connectors, especially the 40-pin inter-connect
- Replaced several bad transistors on the driver board
- Removed battery, cleaned up minor corrosion, installed NVRAM
- Installed Fuse Saver board

End result, no more fuses blowing, pop bumper that was dead is working, Displays back on and working great. Looks like it's time to move onto the cosmetic side of the project for now. Lots to do, but hopefully good on tech for a while.

HUGE Thank you to all those that offered advice in my threads and via PM. Couldn't have done it without all of you. Thanks!

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