I started "all Gottlieb" but have steadily favored Bally (my top three are Ballys... maybe top four). Agreed about the crappy lamp sockets but honestly after 40 years most of the Gottlieb's need replacement too. I find Bally score reels are easier to service, the relay switch stacks are easier to adjust (unlike the compressed rows found in Gottlieb's), and overall they are built like tanks whereas Gottlieb's are a bit fussy and require more finesse to get dialed in and bulletproofed. The only serious Achilles' Heel are the plastic stepper gears which will melt if the solenoid gets cooked. But I'll take that risk over those horrible Gottlieb AS steppers anyday.

As far as Fireball is concerned... I have one... but would agree it is a bit overrated. It is the "Pac Man" of EM pinball. Everyone recognizes it, but in a similar way the gameplay gets a little repetitive. After making the skill shot (which is easy to do), you're constrained to a 3/4 size playfield to flip and catch, lock and release. That's pretty much it. Positives are killer artwork, awesome spinner, skill shot, multiball, kickback, lane return... just tons of features. But overall the novelty factor doesn't contribute enough to the core gameplay for me.

It IS a cool game, no doubt about it. I rate it 8 out of 10 all things considered. But I wouldn't place it in my personal top five in my collection... would have to put Bally Dixieland, Old Chicago, and the Freedom prototype ahead of it. Along with 2001, King Pin ('73), and probably Skyrocket as well. Maybe also King Pin ('62), Heat Wave, and Paradise too. Beyond that it gets tough... hmmmmm....

Oh totally. IPDB ratings are *completely* speculative... nearly every game scores a 7.something. It's just for fun.

I get the most out of the ratings by clicking on individual reviewers and following their write-ups. They often go further into evaluating the game than "I like mine" or "played this one as a teenager".

I'd have to give the edge to Fireball over 4MBC... just slightly. They are somewhat similar. Both have high concept artwork and features but Fireball is a bit faster and more memorable overall. Can't really go wrong with either in a good sized collection... love the classic Bally's.

For pure gameplay with 2" flippers it's hard to beat Capersville and Dixieland with an honorable mention to Cosmos and Rocket III.

(Though my very favorite Bally EM's all have 3" flippers... Old Chicago, Skyrocket, Freedom prototype, and Bow & Arrow)

The #1 reason people turn away from EM's is due to poor playing condition. Weak pops, flippers, flaky steppers, dim lamp sockets, floaty leveling... too many look and play like warped foosball tables left out in the rain. This is not good for building demand and praise.

Dan's Fireball and a handful of others at TPF defied expectations. Those who took a chance to play them kept coming back again and again.

Better to have fewer games which play awesomely than a barn full of "mostly functional" ones...

I should have one ready for TPF 2017. Reserve your final judgment until then.

Agreed. Solid EM.

Ah... I get it. You're in Ann Arbor. I see Clay has an Old Chicago in his collection.

Well then, see you in a few weeks...

1000 is beyond hoarding... I don't know what the right word would be for it at that point.

BTW if you happen to be at this level, call me immediately for assistance.

Don't forget Dixieland! One of my top five easily.

Are you saying Gottlieb typically designed AAB versions first, or just for Top Hand/Captain Card vs. High Hand? Agreed that, with lower production counts for the AAB versions, gameplay that often lasts too long, and sub-par artwork... it seems unusual those versions would have come first.

Ah, gotcha. That makes sense. In some cases the playfield geometry was also changed. Note the bottom portion of the Ice Show playfield has a different arrangement (and is more difficult) than Ice Revue. Not common to find this, but interesting.

The Flipper Series (Flipper, Flipper Fair, Flipper Parade, etc.) are from what I call the "AAB golden age" of the early 60's. Until early 1965, nearly every AAB game had no replay equivalent. They were designed from the ground up to be AAB, and only AAB. Many times, it shows. The AAB's from this era typically play and look much better on average than their later adapted cousins in my opinion.

In the case of Flipper Fair (I own one), the same geometry was later re-used for Cross Town (replay) and Subway (AAB). I think it may be the only case where an AAB "golden age" layout was later re-released in a replay version. Interestingly, what is often true about AAB's being "not quite as good" as its replay original is flipped on its head... Flipper Fair/Subway is, by far, the better game. The physical layout is simply better suited for that risk/reward center shot opportunity of earning an extra ball.

I think this is why so many "adapted AAB's" just don't quite look or feel right. They're often second bananas to the profit margin. Back in the day we didn't know what we were missing. But today, with the help of IPDB and a little research, it's often easy to determine which one is the better player... typically the one which was designed first and not tampered with afterward. That's why games like Captain Card, the Freedom prototype, and as you mentioned so many of those golden age AAB's are the ones to get.

The biggest milestone aspect of Fireball is its strong recognizable image. It was the first (and only?) home production machine with 10,000 produced... huge! Which puts the total production number beyond 15,000 if you include the original EM, home version, and SS remake. It also spans a wider production time frame than any other game... 1972 all the way to 1985. Multiple opportunities to jog your memory.

It really is the "Pac Man" of EM pinball... the one most recognized by the mainstream. Pop culture is no different. It isn't as much about innovation as it is about being the first to bring those ideas to the masses in a memorable way. That, more than anything else, is what Fireball did. It was the most recognized pinball machine people could play in the arcade and at home.

As Boatcat mentioned, Fireball wasn't *that* mechanically innovative. It was actually the next-to-last EM with multiball and zipper flippers ever produced. Skyrocket had a much more elaborate light show/ball lock scoring mechanism a year earlier... and 4 Million BC had already incorporated pretty much everything Fireball did aside from the spinning disc.

But still... even to this day... put Capersville, 4MBC, Wiggler, etc. in a room together and Fireball is the one people will point at and go "ohhhh yeah I remember that one!".

Best spinners due to the shot location or the 5-50-500 scoring potential? Snow Derby has a similar layout (dual spinners) but seems a bit more difficult even though it doesn't look that way.

Snow Derby isn't even in the top 250... but it won best 70's EM category at TPF this year and got tons of play. Hmmmmm... how does that work?

I think Sweet Hearts is a fairly weak game in the Gottlieb lineup yet it currently sits in the top 10 right now. "Impacto" (which I do like) ranks even higher than that... but EIGHTH out of... a thousand? No way. I mean, that is just hilariously off the mark.

IPDB rankings are only vaguely tied to quality. It's more of a popularity contest/nostalgia tracker. I only recently feel like I am confident enough to rate games with a reliable degree of accuracy... and this is after spending two years obsessively filtering my way through the entire IPDB... twice... and traveling across the country to play hundreds of EM's in private collections, museums, and festivals.

I'm gonna create my own dad gum list! :p