(Topic ID: 131407)

Fireball II Club (fans welcome!)

By mof

8 years ago


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#285 5 years ago
Quoted from surfinvet:

i have the flashing of the GI lights but not the lights involving the corners of the doodlebug mechanism...
However, the lamp close to the aux lamp driver board closest to the doodlebug is not on. A new bulb did not fix it. Any ideas on how to test the aux light board and what do I expect for it to be working correctly? What drives this board originally? My guess is it should flash when the ball in the doodlebug is moving?

Grab a piece of wire with both ends stripped. Hookup one end to ground and touch the other end at:
1) Main lamp driver board, bottom right leg of SCR Q18
2) Main lamp driver board, in connector J2 pin 20 (where the Grey-Black wire is)
3) The Grey-Back wire lug at the lamp under the playfield on the left near the small aux driver board heatsink (AS-2517-67)
4) Under the playfield on the left near the small aux driver board heatsink pin 3 of the connector (where the Grey-Black wire is)

In the four tests above, when does the lamp near the AS-2517-67 leftside aux driver board come on?

Note the four lamps in the doodlebug area driven by the AS-2517-67 are 12 volt lamps (921 type), not your standard 6.3 volt lamps.

#287 5 years ago
Quoted from surfinvet:

the lamp lighted for 3 of the 4 but did not light running a wire from ground to J2 pin 20.

You probably didn't get good contact in J2 pin 20 with your jumper wire. The test before it on SCR Q18 is upstream from that connector and since it worked, you were getting continuity through that connector pin.
During those 4 tests did the doodlebug lamps also light? Have you checked those doodlebug lamps to make sure they are ok and are 12 volt lamps?

Another thing to test is SCR Q18 itself. Grab your jumper wire and hookup one end to test point TP3 on the main lamp driver board. Touch the other end of the jumper wire on the upper middle leg of SCR Q18. The lamp at the left playfield aux driver board should light. This is a manual way of activating those small SCRs on the main lamp driver board (connecting the middle leg of the small SCRs to TP3).

#289 5 years ago
Quoted from surfinvet:

the resistor values were 99 Ohms at R2 and 330 Ohms at R1

Your resistors measured good. The schematics list R1 as being 330 Ohms - the parts list says it's 300 Ohms?? A board I have here has a 330 Ohm resistor.

Disconnect that AS-2518-67 board and measure the resistance between the three legs of the Q1 SCR. Also swap the meter leads around when measuring the resistance. If you get any near zero ohm resistance (short circuit) measurements it's likely faulty.

Solder a wire across that burnt trace, install some proper 12V lamps in the doodlebug area and see how you go.

4 months later
#326 5 years ago
Quoted from scampcamp:

Would someone have a good picture of the solenoid driver board’s J3 connector? We’re trying to figure out why there are 2 cut wires on Pin 13 and 25. The coils are not working at this time.

SDB J3 pins 13 and 25 are connected to each other. It's a loop back wire that's there to provide 5V power to the logic chip on the SDB which selects solenoids. One of the recommended mods for this board is to solder a wire between those two pins on the back of the board for redundancy.

Someone may have cut the wire as a test because the board might be locking on coils at power up. Anyway, temporarily jumper test point TP1 to TP3 and see what happens.

SDB_TP3.jpgSDB_TP3.jpg

#331 5 years ago
Quoted from scampcamp:

Thanks! I put a wire from TP1 to TP3 & it worked! So... if I hook up those to cut brown wires... it will work?

Those two cut brown-white wires should be connected to each other. It should work provided the terminals in the connector are ok.
Original wire length is about 5 or 6 inches.

4 months later
#350 4 years ago
Quoted from timab2000:

I change these two items out Marco pinball had them seem to clear up the problem.

The Aux Driver board with the heatsink (Part number AS-2518-67) is for flashing the four 12 volt "921" lamps in the doodle bug area during bonus collect.

The Aux Driver board without the heatsink (Part number AS-2518-68) is for flashing the GI. It controls the Triac mounted on the rectifier board base plate.

3 weeks later
#364 4 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

"#912" lamps.

Schematic says #921 lamps. #912 will work fine (lower wattage).

FireBall_DoodleBug lamp.jpgFireBall_DoodleBug lamp.jpg

5 months later
#441 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

I still have a lot of switches to replace, even though the game seems to be functioning normally with old switches.

Why do you need to replace so many switches? have the contacts lost/damaged their gold plating?

Quoted from jlbintn:

I am running a Callahan Mutha Board MPU. The Activity Switch,which I may be incorrectly assigning the role of a reset switch or SW1 on other MPU's, does not work.

The MPU board "Activity Switch" is for clearing audits back to zero in book-keeping mode. It's the separate "SW33" on factory MPU boards. It's not a reset switch.

Quoted from jlbintn:

here - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pop-bumper-fires-with-flipper-activity

That thread is very informative, and there is a solution that involves caps on the flipper switches, as that is relatively painless.

Also add capacitors to the flipper end of stroke (EOS) switches which will extend their life and soften flipper high current spikes to reduce the phantom switch matrix issues. Note the capacitors need to be high voltage.
There was some recent discussion about adding capacitors to the flipper button and EOS switches here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reducing-arcing-on-early-ss-pin-flipper-eos-and-cabinet-switches

#447 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

the only switches on either playfield (prior to the swap project) that had capacitors were the three pop bumpers. Not a capacitor to be found (whole or cut) anywhere else under either playfield.

The three Odin/Wotan standup targets (back left of the playfield) are also supposed to have capacitors on their switches.

That's expensive. I think the originals were about 5 or 6 amps (can't remember). If you're replacing, go for a 10 amp unit which are half the price and while you're at it you might as well replace the MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor) connected to the filter.

#449 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

Off the top of your head, do you know what caps should be on those targets? That might explain why I get the occasional non-score when the ball strikes the target plate.

A Fireball II I worked on earlier this year either had the caps on those switches or clearly had them cut with leg tails still on the switches.
See the Fireball II playfield switch matrix schematics below showing the capacitor locations and also the note saying they are 0.05 microfarad. Use 0.047uf caps 50V or higher - it'll fix the intermittent fast hit misses.

Fireball_II_Playfield_SwitchMatrix.jpgFireball_II_Playfield_SwitchMatrix.jpg

2 weeks later
#460 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

According to self-test, the right slingshot is solenoid Q7, but the SDB recognizes it as Q16. Q16 should be the Fireball relay.

The self test numbers for the solenoid coils have no correlation to the driver transistor Q numbers (on some early Sterns they do, but not Ballys).

The Fireball relay is driven by driver transistor Q17. What's the exact problem you're trying to fix with it?

#462 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

The right sling-shot being locked down by the SDB during game play. (edit to add) The right slingshot still scores and chimes, it just doesn't kick the ball.

So the right slingshot coil isn't activating?
What happens if you very briefly ground the metal tab of driver transistor Q16? does that right slingshot coil fire?

Quoted from jlbintn:

Which is why some of this other quirky behavior keeps pointing me back to the MPU as the potential culprit. That power-up issue would be tied to the MPU reset circuit, correct?

Possibly. Has the MPU board suffered from battery leak corrosion?

#469 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

It is a Callahan Mutha MPU.

Did you get any schematics with it?

Quoted from jlbintn:

Played 13 games last night, and the sling did not get deactivated.

Do you mean the slingshot coil is locking on? If so, isn't it burning up?

#472 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

There are two fuses under the playfield on my game, and neither of them are blowing.

If I remember correctly, one fuse is for the standard playfield coils, the other fuse is for the doodlebug ball magnet. The schematics don't list the second fuse and it's been some time since I've seen the real thing to confirm.

Quoted from jlbintn:

No, the board locks it down and won't let it fire. The silk screen on the board says it has done that because a short-circuit has been detected.

I think our terminologies are confusing each other with the word "lock". When we say a coil is locking on we mean it activates immediately at power up and stays activated - if the fuse doesn't blow, it eventually cooks. Do I understand correctly that when you say the "board locks it down", you mean the coil is essentially dead (not activating) because the Alltek SDB has disabled it due to a malfunction (shorted transistor) it's sensed?

Quoted from jlbintn:

No schematics, but I've been told it can be diagnosed using the schematics for the original MPU.

The Callahan Mutha MPU board pictures in the below thread indicate it's pretty similar to the Bally board - reset section looks the same.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/evel-knievel-with-revision-12-muthapcb-not-booting-up

#475 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

Measured the 82 -1W resistor at R11, it's reading 86.4, with leads reversed 74.8.

R11 operates at max power - Bally underspecced it. On top of that, the Callahan board uses a physically small version of that resistor so it runs even hotter having less mass to dissipate the heat.
I always replace it with a 3 watt version. You can find them on ebay.

Quoted from jlbintn:

Powering down the game, and powering it back up clears the disabling of the coil.

So when does the slingshot coil become disabled?
The coil has a diode on it? The diode is good? (not shorted) and it's installed the right way around? - banded diode side towards the yellow wires.

#477 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

Hope this doesn't seem to be a dumb question, but could I use a 100-110 ohm 1 or 2 watt resistor instead?

Not a dumb question at all, I was going to suggest a 470 ohm resistor. R11 was there as part of the charging circuit for the original Bally spec nicad battery. Your board doesn't have a battery in the charging circuit so you should be able to raise the resistance of R11 to reduce is power consumption.
Let's presume there's 9 volts across that resistor; an 82 ohm resistor will consume 0.98 Watts. A 110 ohm resistor will consume 0.73 watts.
You generally want the wattage rating of the resistor to be at least double what it's consuming.

Note that resistor won't be the cause of your intermittent startups - to diagnose that you'll first need to determine how many times the LED on the MPU board flashes on power up.

Quoted from jlbintn:

Yeah, the coil is good. As far as I can determine, at any rate. Wires are connected correctly. It's new

So long as you have the yellow wires on the coil lug where the banded side of the diode is, then you might have a shorted driver transistor on the solenoid driver board (SDB).

If you want, try swapping the two slingshot wires at the J5 connector at the SDB (pin 14 is left slingshot, pin 8 is the right slingshot). If the same transistor gets disabled you know it's faulty. If the fault follows the coil you know it's not the SDB.
If it is a suspect driver transistor get in touch with Alltek, their warranty might cover it. That is unless you want to replace the driver transistor yourself..

#481 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

he little demon is still acting up, but I'm becoming more convinced that it is the flippers that instigate that. I'm going to save that for last.

This is going to be the typical Bally phantom pop issue caused by high current surges to the flippers being picked up as noise in the switch matrix. The only true way to fix it will be to separate the flipper wires in the harness...

Quoted from jlbintn:

I'd probably replace the transistor myself, if it ends up being the culprit.

From memory, those transistors are surface mount. You comfortable dealing with that? Note Alltek uses MOSFET transistors, they're different to the transistors used on the Bally SDB.

Quoted from jlbintn:

Don't have any 470 ohm 1 watt resistors available. Tried a 470 ohm 2 watt resistor. Too much, the board wouldn't boot up. Two slow green blinks and pfffftttttt......

Ok, good to know. barakandl posted a mod a few years ago to get rid of some of those reset section components when using NVRAM, and that Dallas chip on your board is essentially a NVRAM - it has an internal lithium battery from memory with a limited life (but it's many years).

Quoted from jlbintn:

went with a 150 ohm 1 watt resistor. Measured 16.59vdc at the front of it, 5.68vdc at the end of it.

Hmm, it's still consuming at 0.8 watts. Your original 82 ohm resistor must have been consuming nearly 1.4 watts! No wonder it was cooking.
That 16.59 volts on the front side of R11 is a little high. Is the transformer in your game wired for the correct and up to date wall line voltage?

I normally measure about 5.8 - 5.9 volts at the end of R11. Don't worry about it being 5.68 volts.

#484 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

I'm assuming the transformer is wired properly for wall voltage,

Can you post a picture of the wire voltage jumper block next to the transformer? the block is where the mains fuse is.

Quoted from jlbintn:

Are metal film resistors ok to use?

Yes, a metal film resistor is perfectly fine to use.

Quoted from jlbintn:

You say this new resistor is consuming 0.8 watts.

The voltages you listed across the new 150 ohm resistor were: "16.59vdc at the front of it, 5.68vdc at the end of it".
16.59 - 5.68 = 10.91 volts across the resistor.
Ohms law says current is voltage divided by resistance:
10.91 / 150 = 0.727 amps through the resistor
Power is calculated as voltage times current:
10.91 * 0.727 = 0.793 watts (I rounded it up to 0.8 watts)

Hope that makes sense.

#486 4 years ago

I need to see where the two top orange wires are located on that connector to determine the transformer input voltage selection.

JLBINTN_TransformerVoltage1.jpgJLBINTN_TransformerVoltage1.jpg

#491 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

took the pictures.

The transformer's configured for 115VAC.

#493 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

I am assuming that there is no reason to configure it for 120 when I do finally get to that connector.

Slightly less current draw/strain on components. But you might prefer the extra 4% power in the flippers leaving it at 115V

2 weeks later
#503 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

The question I have is that three wire connector in the backbox. There is a solenoid wire there, along with two other wires from the MPU that controls the Little Demon. The solenoid wire is Q5, which is the center drop targets, which is also connected to the Little Demon bonus.

The solenoid wire for Q5 comes from pin 10 of the J2 SDB connector. That J2 SDB connector is designated for cabinet wiring. So that 3 pin plug allows you to separate the playfield harness from the cabinet harness to pull the playfield out separately. You didn't mention exactly where those other two wires are coming from for me to comment, but very likely it's a similar situation (they probably come from connectors designated for cabinet or backbox).
There's a few Bally games with that extra connector.

#505 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

The other two wires go to J2 on the MPU, and feed down to the playfield.

MPU J2 is designated to the playfield switch harness. Having said that, the schematics show two wires from that J2 connector running to the cabinet for the little demon kicker post button. It's a bit weird since MPU J3 is designated to the cabinet but for some strange reason that little demon kicker post button is mapped somewhere in the switch matrix that isn't supported by that MPU J3 connector.
The doubled MPU J2 wires split off into the cabinet harness.
BTW, that connector in your machine isn't the factory Bally fitted connector. If you look at the gallery in this thread, that connector looks a little different.

[Edit] This is what that connector looks like from factory:
https://images.pinside.com/5/9b/e2/59be2de85a5f04c5b4347894a8270fcc2432e4af.jpg

#507 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

I put that connector in.

Ok just wanted to make sure you were aware.

Quoted from jlbintn:

from time to time when the ball goes in the Odin saucer and kicks the ball out, the Little Demon post will activate OR a new ball will be kicked out for play. The other issue involves the out lane (on the C Lane side of the game), where every once in a while, after the ball rolls over the switch toward drain, the game will make the Fireball sound that you hear when inserting a quarter for play.

Sounds like you have issues in the switch matrix. I'd suggest that you run through the switch test mode for diagnosis.

Raise all the drop targets and remove all playfield balls from the game.
The game should report "0" in the ball in play display indicating no closed switches, if not you have a stuck switch that needs investigating.

Using the switch identification table in the manual (print page 17), activate each switch one at a time but do it in REVERSE order listed in the manual - i.e. start at switch 40 and work your way in reverse sequence to switch 1. Important that you do it in reverse order because the game only reports the lowest switch number that's closed.
Leave drop targets down after you've activated them and leave balls at the corresponding outhole switches after activating them.

Look for switches that don't respond, and switches that report the wrong number.

#510 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

I have seen my upper flipper in D&D not engage, yet by eye contact, the contacts are in the normal position, e.g., NC. This was after a complete flipper rebuild, too. Fireball II did the same thing not long after (this was earlier this year), the lower right flipper. I just gently pressed the contacts together (same issue, they looked as though they were touching) and it hasn't happened since.

You can give new EOS and flipper button switches that are tungsten (high current) contact based a bit of a clean with sand paper to remove any protective coating, otherwise you might get what you saw on new installation.
Suffice to say, never use sand paper on gold plated (low current) contact switches.

Quoted from jlbintn:

I'm using 1N4004 diodes on all of the switches. The schematic calls for 1N4148, which is rated lower than the 04's. I am making the assumption that this is not an issue.

No issue at all using 1N4004 - the earlier Ballys till about '79 used 1N4004 diodes on the switches..

Quoted from jlbintn:

The C-Lane is using a two leaf switch with no diode, it is the only rollover switch configured that way.

That's not right, it should be the same as all other switches with a diode. It might cause problems when certain drop targets are down.

Quoted from jlbintn:

Little Demon is behaving better, not perfectly, but better.

Did you manage to separate the wiring for that switch? For test, just run a new wire direct from the MPU board to the button switch (while disconnecting the old wire in the harness). If the problem goes away you know it was caused by electrical noise from the flipper current.

#514 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

I segregated the wiring from the backbox down to right where it rolls on to the playfield. Looks a little messy under there when the playfield is up, and I don't think it's perfect, but it is segregated.

Which playfield wire did you segregate? If you're rewiring the wire to the little demon solenoid that won't buy you anything. The issue is switch matrix wiring picking up noise from the flipper wires. The wire to segregate is the white-green wire coming from MPU J2 pin 8 although it runs to a few switches on the playfield so could get difficult/messy- the worst part (noise wise) probably being the last section running adjacent with the flipper wires to the outhole switch.

Quoted from jlbintn:

The two fuses under the playfield:

My Fireball II had two playfield fuses too.
Ballys of that era have a 1 amp slow blow fuse for playfield solenoids (except the flippers). The Fireball II schematics lists that playfield fuse as 3 amps slow blow - it was increased from 1 amp to 3 amps because of the higher than usual current draw for the doodle bug magnet.
It's probably safe to presume a decision was made to ensure all other playfield solenoids were still fused with a 1 amp slow blow and that the doodle bug magnet should have it's own dedicated 3 amp slow blow fuse.

#517 4 years ago

Is that Little Demon still being a Little Devil every now and then?

Quoted from jlbintn:

Were any Fireball II's manufactured with a Little Demon post light?

My guess would be no.
Medusa which came out a few months after FireBall II also had that same post between the flippers (on Medusa it's called the Shield of Gods post). Medusa has red flipper shaped inserts that are lit under transparent red flipper bats. So Bally was playing with lights in that area but they didn't light the post between the flippers.

#520 4 years ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

It is mis-behaving from time to time, but I have only noticed it when pressing the button to activate it. Most of the time it's fine, but sometimes a press will use up two, and sometimes three credits.

In that case try putting a 0.047uF capacitor across that little demon button switch in the cabinet.
BTW does your switch have a diode on it? The cabinet schematic doesn't show one.

3 months later
#534 4 years ago
Quoted from scampcamp:

I looked through the Fireball ll manual & didn't see the part number for the flipper buttons.

Bally Parts Catalogs are downloadable from PinWiki:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Parts_Catalogs

Eg: you'll find the flipper buttons in the 1980-1 catalog electronic PDF page 33 (paper page 63).

1 year later
#577 2 years ago
Quoted from thrillhousejames:

I think this machine I bought has the wiring all wrong, showing continuity between a lamp socket and a coil which does not seem right at all

The four lamps around the doodle bug area are 12 volt lamps connected in series to the 43V solenoid power. What you're seeing is factory and was done for higher intensity flashing. So if you're replacing those lamps, make sure you use 12V units.

See schematic here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fireball-ii-club-members-only/page/8#post-5039003

1 year later
#590 1 year ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

The remote volume control on the coin door is a 10K ohm potentiometer, correct?

Nope.
It's a 100 ohm 5 watt wirewound pot.
https://www.jameco.com/z/5W-PW-24H-20S-B100-Jameco-Valuepro-24mm-Linear-Taper-Wirewound-Potentiometer-100-Ohm-20-5W-1-4-D-Slotted-Round-Shaft-20mm-L_140514.html

#592 1 year ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

Anyway, my door looks much cleaner

Nice work.
You can open the original pot and give it a clean. There are four tabs holding it closed that you bend up a little so it disassembles.
Give all the swiping arms a little bend so they have more tension and clean the original gummed up grease you'll see.

#596 1 year ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

What is good for cleaning the door pot? 91% rubbing alcohol? Electronic cleaner?

Either cleaner will do. Once it's clean the pot will return to good service. Just remember to give the swiping arms a little more tension too.

#599 1 year ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

Meant to post a few days ago. Got the pot cleaned. What was the purpose of that brown grease? Looks like it was put there deliberately.

It might have been a white lithium grease that turned brown from dust/dirt.
I don't bother replacing it, that way no gunk can build up again. This is a pot you usually set and forget so lubrication isn't important.

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